On 9/19/2020 at 2:39 PM, Khobai said:

And with immune to pierce and red defensive surge shes one of the few units that can easily survive vader's assaults and keep him tied up in melee for the entire game.

She doesn't have Immune: Pierce, she has Impervious. It can save her some extra damage but it's not as effective as Immune: Pierce. Vader can easily kill her with 2 melee attacks.

7 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

She doesn't have Immune: Pierce, she has Impervious. It can save her some extra damage but it's not as effective as Immune: Pierce. Vader can easily kill her with 2 melee attacks.

The Darksaber gives her Immune: Pierce in melee.

4 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

She doesn't have Immune: Pierce, she has Impervious. It can save her some extra damage but it's not as effective as Immune: Pierce. Vader can easily kill her with 2 melee attacks.

darksaber gives it to her

with the darksaber she can tank vader easily all game long. if he has a few wounds on him already she can sometimes even beat him 1v1. for a fraction of the points vader costs.

and shes more survivable than vader if you give her personal shield and dodge tokens. since she can recover her shield and nimble keeps giving her dodge tokens back.

she can also immobilize vader. so you immobilize him, shoot a couple wounds onto him, then you melee him to try and finish him off.

sabine wren shuts down Vader HARD. its really pathetic to watch how easily Vader gets rendered completely useless or even killed by sabine wren. Vader's susceptibility to getting hard countered is what makes him one of the worst commanders IMO.

Sabine Wren, Vader hunter = 169 points, tenacity, elecrograppling line, personal shield, and darksaber.

Sabine Wren is arguably the best operative in the game. I dont know why they made her so much better than OP Vader or Boba Fett. I dont understand it but oh well...

On 9/18/2020 at 3:47 PM, Kingsguard said:

Yeah but hits aren't a guarantee. I attacked with my pathfinders earlier. 8 white dice, 1 hit. red defense dice all work.

I note your use of the plural “ red defence dice all work ”. How many was he rolling in that situation? If there was only one hit there should only be one defence die.

8 hours ago, Khobai said:

darksaber gives it to her

with the darksaber she can tank vader easily all game long. if he has a few wounds on him already she can sometimes even beat him 1v1. for a fraction of the points vader costs.

and shes more survivable than vader if you give her personal shield and dodge tokens. since she can recover her shield and nimble keeps giving her dodge tokens back.

she can also immobilize vader. so you immobilize him, shoot a couple wounds onto him, then you melee him to try and finish him off.

sabine wren shuts down Vader HARD. its really pathetic to watch how easily Vader gets rendered completely useless or even killed by sabine wren. Vader's susceptibility to getting hard countered is what makes him one of the worst commanders IMO.

Sabine Wren, Vader hunter = 169 points, tenacity, elecrograppling line, personal shield, and darksaber.

Sabine Wren is arguably the best operative in the game. I dont know why they made her so much better than OP Vader or Boba Fett. I dont understand it but oh well...

You're right, I completely forgot about the Darksaber. I played very few games with Sabine, I have to use her more.

ive played a lot of games against her with vader. and its one of the most frustrating experiences lol.

ive tried using boba fett to counter luke as well but boba fett doesnt counter luke even a fraction as much as sabine counters vader.

On 9/18/2020 at 10:32 AM, Orkimedes said:

Rebels can stack pierce better than any other faction and should be shredding storms. Fleets (with scatter), Wookiees (with bowcaster) and Luke are all great choices in skirmish. For 800 points you want sniper strike teams (and Luke is still great at 800 points).

Anecdotal, but the three Empire players in my circle learned a healthy respect (dare I say fear) of Wookies in Skirmish. Ofc I've list built around 2 units of them with endurance, tenacity and med droids (bringing one back with 2 wounds is smile inducing). The unit is far from perfect but you can make an off-meta pressure list with them work at 500 because they ask an interesting question - can your troops and backline support survive a HtH grinder coming across buildings on both flanks. Most players overestimate them and then end up castle'ing, giving me the run of the field for a scenario win.

I'd never play them at 800 unfortunately (which makes me sad) and do not take on Vader with any real hope of success.

18 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

Anecdotal, but the three Empire players in my circle learned a healthy respect (dare I say fear) of Wookies in Skirmish. Ofc I've list built around 2 units of them with endurance, tenacity and med droids (bringing one back with 2 wounds is smile inducing). The unit is far from perfect but you can make an off-meta pressure list with them work at 500 because they ask an interesting question - can your troops and backline support survive a HtH grinder coming across buildings on both flanks. Most players overestimate them and then end up castle'ing, giving me the run of the field for a scenario win.

I'd never play them at 800 unfortunately (which makes me sad) and do not take on Vader with any real hope of success.

Endurance seems like a strange choice, given that they already have Indomitable and I've never seen suppression be an issue for them. Also, you're bringing them back with 1 too many wounds. You might want to read the RRG entry again. Basically, anything brought back always has one wound, period.

On 9/22/2020 at 8:14 AM, arnoldrew said:

Endurance seems like a strange choice, given that they already have Indomitable and I've never seen suppression be an issue for them. Also, you're bringing them back with 1 too many wounds. You might want to read the RRG entry again. Basically, anything brought back always has one wound, period.

i think he means bringing them back with 2 wound tokens on them (1w remaining). at least i really hope so.

On 9/21/2020 at 12:34 AM, mazz0 said:

I note your use of the plural “ red defence dice all work ”. How many was he rolling in that situation? If there was only one hit there should only be one defence die.

Cover.

On 9/21/2020 at 5:53 PM, Kwatchi said:

Anecdotal, but the three Empire players in my circle learned a healthy respect (dare I say fear) of Wookies in Skirmish.

Haven't played against them in skirmish, but I can vouch for Wookiees being a good distraction or gum unit. Unchecked, they will shred Corps units, but they require just enough firepower that you have to focus them (in my experience, at least) a bit in order to ward them off, which gives other units a chance to flank or take objectives. I have yet to see my opponents have one survive to the end, but they usually either gut a few of my troopers or waste a bunch of my time. Both are completely viable as tactics.

48 minutes ago, Kingsguard said:

Cover.

Cover cancels hits, the only way to add defense dice (beyond how many hits you have) is Danger Sense or Impervious.

59 minutes ago, evo454 said:

Haven't played against them in skirmish, but I can vouch for Wookiees being a good distraction or gum unit. Unchecked, they will shred Corps units, but they require just enough firepower that you have to focus them (in my experience, at least) a bit in order to ward them off, which gives other units a chance to flank or take objectives. I have yet to see my opponents have one survive to the end, but they usually either gut a few of my troopers or waste a bunch of my time. Both are completely viable as tactics.

I have and they are at least usable in skermish. They still suffer from the fact that tauntauns exist and can do what they can better for far less points.

49 minutes ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

I have and they are at least usable in skermish. They still suffer from the fact that tauntauns exist and can do what they can better for far less points.

Yeah, Taun Tauns are hard to pass up for Rebels. Which kinda sucks, cause I'm really tired of playing against them. In my group it's to the point that I can't see a list that DOESN'T take a TaunTaun at minimum.

Ram feels cheap, but this is coming from someone who hates playing against them, so you can just take that as my pinch of salt.

On 9/21/2020 at 5:06 PM, Khobai said:

ive played a lot of games against her with vader. and its one of the most frustrating experiences lol.

ive tried using boba fett to counter luke as well but boba fett doesnt counter luke even a fraction as much as sabine counters vader.

Remember that if Sabine has the Darksaber then her impervious does NOT take effect. She very rarely beat Vader in a 1v1. Vader should always have an auto dodge with his force reflexes giving him just a good defense as Sabine, he has better attack, and more lives.

2 hours ago, Kingsguard said:

Cover.

Your one word answer gives us no information, and doesn't answer his question. What does cover have to do with anything?

1 minute ago, weebaer said:

Remember that if Sabine has the Darksaber then her impervious does NOT take effect. She very rarely beat Vader in a 1v1. Vader should always have an auto dodge with his force reflexes giving him just a good defense as Sabine, he has better attack, and more lives.

Don't try arguing with him. He considers his opinions facts, regardless of the rules, the math, or how the game actually plays. He is correct, though, in that even though Vader will kill Sabine, she has a pretty good chance of tying him up for basically the entire game and keeping him from doing anything BUT kill her.

5 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Don't try arguing with him. He considers his opinions facts, regardless of the rules, the math, or how the game actually plays. He is correct, though, in that even though Vader will kill Sabine, she has a pretty good chance of tying him up for basically the entire game and keeping him from doing anything BUT kill her.

Sound like he needs to buy new dice.

21 minutes ago, weebaer said:

Remember that if Sabine has the Darksaber then her impervious does NOT take effect. She very rarely beat Vader in a 1v1. Vader should always have an auto dodge with his force reflexes giving him just a good defense as Sabine, he has better attack, and more lives.

Sabine can definitely beat Vader 1v1. I already explained how. You immobilize him then shoot some wounds onto him. Then you engage him in melee. Every wound you put on Vader before engaging him in melee increases her chances of beating him.

All you need to do is put a couple wounds on him for Sabine to reasonably take him out. And even if she doesnt take him out she ties him up for the rest of the game.

17 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Your one word answer gives us no information, and doesn't answer his question. What does cover have to do with anything?

Don't try arguing with him. He considers his opinions facts, regardless of the rules, the math, or how the game actually plays. He is correct, though, in that even though Vader will kill Sabine, she has a pretty good chance of tying him up for basically the entire game and keeping him from doing anything BUT kill her.

Except I always give facts and show people the math if they ask for it.

People just dont like it when I prove them wrong.

3 minutes ago, Khobai said:

She can definitely beat Vader 1v1. I already explained how. You immobilize him then shoot some wounds onto him. Then you engage him in melee.

All you need to do is put a couple wounds on him for Sabine to reasonably take him out. And even if she doesnt take him out she ties him up for the rest of the game.

Sure. If you are playing Vader with zero concept of command cards, force abilities, and statistics.

10 minutes ago, weebaer said:

Sure. If you are playing Vader with zero concept of command cards, force abilities, and statistics.

You do realize both players get command cards right? So if youre giving Vader the benefit of command cards you have to give Sabine the same benefit.

And no command card Vader has gets him out of being immobilized. Immobilize is basically LOSE A TURN VADER if its used properly. And Sabine can do it to him multiple times.

Sabine is absolutely a hard counter to Vader irregardless of what command cards he uses.

She can immobilize him, tarpit him, keep him contained ALL GAME, and even has a reasonable chance of killing a wounded Vader.

His command cards do very little to help him out of that situation. His command cards mostly just give him dodge tokens. Implacable is really the only command card he has that could somewhat help him but it also puts a wound on him.

And what force powers help Vader? hes basically forced to take push, reflexes, and saber throw. None of those are particularly useful against Sabine.

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

All you need to do is put a couple wounds on him for Sabine to reasonably take him out.

Ah, so she can win a 1v1 if Vader is already wounded and does literally nothing to stop her.

Saber throw against her can be really devastating if you roll well with it, even with the Immune keyword. I've won that 1v1 before and it didn't take all game (I've actually done with Iden as well, funnily enough). Additionally, the odds of getting a true 1v1 in this game is next to none because neither side is going to sit back and do nothing while a high value unit is marching off to face another high value unit.

Couple if issues I see with your gameplay.

If Sabine is both able to grapple AND shoot, then you done messed up. That means she was already within range 1 of you without you engaging her, why? Also I will echo what was just said, saber throw is good vs sabine since she does not get immune pierce unless she is already in melee. Sure she still has impervious but that ability has diminishing returns the higher the pierce.

10 minutes ago, weebaer said:

Couple if issues I see with your gameplay.

If Sabine is both able to grapple AND shoot, then you done messed up. That means she was already within range 1 of you without you engaging her, why? Also I will echo what was just said, saber throw is good vs sabine since she does not get immune pierce unless she is already in melee. Sure she still has impervious but that ability has diminishing returns the higher the pierce.

Youre not playing in a vacuum. Sabine doesnt shoot him the rest of her army does.

Just like the rest of Vaders army is going to be shooting Sabine.

Sabine is a little better situated to survive being shot at by an entire army though because of nimble. Its also easier for her to position herself well because of how fast she is. Shes also less dependent on getting in melee than Vader is. Because if Vader is reduced to just throwing his saber all game youve rendered him largely ineffective anyway. His saber throw is good but its not good enough to justify spending 215 points.

Quote

Saber throw against her can be really devastating if you roll well with it

Literally any attack can be devastating if you roll well and they miss their saving throws.

Sabine can just as easily devastate Vader if he misses all his saving throws.

Thats why I usually assume average dice rolls.

5 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Sabine doesnt shoot him the rest of her army does.

Just like the rest of Vaders army is going to be shooting Sabine.

Sabine is a little better situated to survive being shot at by an entire army though because of nimble. Its also easier for her to position herself well because of how fast she is.

Youre not playing in a vacuum.

Literally any attack can be devastating if you roll well and they miss their saving throws.

Sabine can just as easily devastate Vader if he misses all his saving throws.

Thats why I usually assume average dice rolls.

If you assume avg dice rolls then we wouldnt even be having this conversation

I do assume average dice rolls.

Its Vaders 6 red vs Sabines 6 black + 1 red from tenacity and her offensive surge to crit.

Shes really not doing that much less damage than him because of her offensive surge to crit.

You dont know what youre talking about.

Sabine can absolutely kill Vader 1v1 if he has a couple wounds on him. Although if hes not wounded ahead of time her odds of killing him go considerably down.

Sabine does 1.2 hits on Vader on average (assuming she gets 1 dodge token)

Vader does 1.4 hits to Sabine on average (assuming he gets 1 dodge token)

So the odds of tying Vader up the entire game are quite good. And the possibility of Sabine killing a wounded Vader certainly exists. She is the ultimate anti-Vader model and hard counters him in virtually every way. She can immobilize him, cancel his pierce, and keep him from doing anything productive by tarpitting him in melee.

And if you take Luke and Sabine what does Vader do against that? He literally cant do anything. Luke/Sabine is the absolute worst combination to face as Vader. Because Sabine renders him completely ineffective on top of the constant threat of Luke son of skywalkering with a huge threat range. Vader has to hide all game and peekaboo with saber throw. That isnt going to get you your 215 points back.

Vader's susceptibility to being hard countered is the whole reason hes such a bad commander. Sure hes great when the opponent doesnt counter him. But if they do hes almost useless. So anyone whos having trouble with Vader just take Luke/Sabine and you wont have trouble with him anymore.