2 hours ago, RyantheFett said:

I try and limit how much I put on the change list since FFG have said over and over how conservative they want to be with the point change (but they also said meta changing). And we don't know if that mean limited number of unit changed or lots of very small changes. A lot of those units are mediocre at best, but I figure some stuff will have to take one for the team lol. Just got to wait and see.

Wookies are so weird. You have to run them as a glass cannon that want to shoot a lot behind cover and then maybe charge them in if **** gets real. With mandos being really close to doing the exact same thing I think wookies will get a remake. Maybe make into some real tanky mofos that want to run right down the board getting shot at.......... you know like what they should of been from the start. Still shocked how it only takes one decent shot to pretty much to decimate the unit. Red defense dice may be too much, but I think defense surge may be too little???????????

white defensive surge is fine.

having 12 wounds with white defensive surge would make them the toughest unit to kill in the game. theyd be even harder to kill than deathtroopers.

honestly I think defensive surge is all wookiees really need to be playable. theyre not a bad unit in most other regards, they just die too quickly.

1 hour ago, lologrelol said:

Mandalorians need a buff.

They really suck.

Whats wrong with them Ive yet to put them on the table

the problem with mandalorians is the same problem with death troopers.

theyre only good if they make their saving throws.

youre paying a lot of points for a 2/3 saving throw and if the first time they get attacked you whiff a bunch of saves and the unit gets wiped out you paid all those points for nothing.

because the unit has such a low number of wounds you often get saving throw results that deviate from average.

13 minutes ago, Khobai said:

white defensive surge is fine.

having 12 wounds with white defensive surge would make them the toughest unit to kill in the game. theyd be even harder to kill than deathtroopers.

honestly I think defensive surge is all wookiees really need to be playable. theyre not a bad unit in most other regards, they just die too quickly.

I think they should have scale. The unhindered plus expert climber definitely feel like the designers would give it scale of they had come up with the keyword at the time.

5 minutes ago, Khobai said:

the problem with mandalorians is the same problem with death troopers.

theyre only good if they make their saving throws.

youre paying a lot of points for a 2/3 saving throw and if the first time they get attacked you whiff a bunch of saves and the unit gets wiped out you paid all those points for nothing.

because the unit has such a low number of wounds you often get saving throw results that deviate from average.

I feel like as with almost every rebel unit they'll be table dependant. If there's not alot of jumpable line of sight blockers they'll probably just die. I wish rebels weren't so table dependant. Sometimes I walk up to a table and know I'll lose and it feels bad man

mandalorians actually arnt as table dependent as other rebel units. thats one good thing about them.

theyre luck dependent more than table dependent.

being speed 3 as opposed to speed 2 makes a pretty big difference. mandalorians can cover a lot more ground than other rebel units.

but its all for nothing if you whiff your saving throws. dodge tokens are cute but they dont really keep mandalorians alive if they whiff their armor saves.

Rebels need a new game mechanic that makes their dodges better. Like if certain criteria are met they get super dodges that can negate two hits instead of one hit.

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

mandalorians actually arnt as table dependent as other rebel units. thats one good thing about them.

theyre luck dependent more than table dependent.

being speed 3 as opposed to speed 2 makes a pretty big difference. mandalorians can cross a lot more ground than other rebel units when the cover is spread further apart.

but its all for nothing if you whiff your saving throws.

I was going to put offensive push on them but it sounds like getting them dodges and using situational awareness might be the move

keeping them in heavy cover with situational awareness and a dodge token is your best bet. And then if they have to make a saving throw... pray hard to the dice gods.

2 hours ago, Lord Abadeer said:

I feel like as with almost every rebel unit they'll be table dependant. If there's not alot of jumpable line of sight blockers they'll probably just die. I wish rebels weren't so table dependant. Sometimes I walk up to a table and know I'll lose and it feels bad man

Rebels definitely need some form of macro faction ability that lets them deploy in a more guerrilla/forward/ambush kind of way.

Maybe imperials should just be the no macro faction. They are essentially the base line. Like space marines or imperial guard are in 40k.

But yes. Rebels defs need some way to help forward deploy their troops. Or get some extra cover or terrain.

13 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

Maybe imperials should just be the no macro faction. They are essentially the base line. Like space marines or imperial guard are in 40k.

Totally off topic, but space marines are no longer the baseline. They have multiple macro-faction things happening simultaneously, in addition to multiple other focused buffs and are, no joke, the most broken army that GW has ever released in any edition I've played (since 3rd).

It's so bad right now that Xenos armies just don't bother and I know space marine players who are shelving their army because they're so good and utterly brainless that they don't have fun.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Totally off topic, but space marines are no longer the baseline. They have multiple macro-faction things happening simultaneously, in addition to multiple other focused buffs and are, no joke, the most broken army that GW has ever released in any edition I've played (since 3rd).

It's so bad right now that Xenos armies just don't bother and I know space marine players who are shelving their army because they're so good and utterly brainless that they don't have fun.

How one faction gets half a dozen codexes on its own is just so ******* stupid.

Maybe imperial guard are as close to 'baseline' as 40k has right now.

3 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Rebels definitely need some form of macro faction ability that lets them deploy in a more guerrilla/forward/ambush kind of way.

Maybe imperials should just be the no macro faction. They are essentially the base line. Like space marines or imperial guard are in 40k.

But yes. Rebels defs need some way to help forward deploy their troops. Or get some extra cover or terrain.

imperials should definitely have a macro ability and so should rebels.

Imperials should get a macro ability that deals out suppression (something like during the command phase the opponent can either choose to give one of their units a suppression token or the imperial player gets 2 surge tokens) and imperials should get more keywords that benefit from enemy units and their own units having suppression tokens. For example, let imperials spend a surge token to give that unit subjugate 1, which would be a new keyword that allows them reroll one attack pool die if the defender has at least 1 suppression token.

Rebels should get a macro ability that gives them bonuses whenever their own units die. Like each time one of their units get wiped out they get to give X free aim or dodge token to their other units. And they should get more keywords that trigger off their units suffering wounds (i.e. something like the first time a unit suffers a wound each turn it gains a surge token). Rebels should also be able to spend surge tokens as ghetto dodge tokens (roll a red defense die to see if you cancel a hit).

A lot of the time surge tokens just go unused because you dont roll a surge icon on the dice. These new mechanics make sure you can always use surge tokens even if you dont get a surge result. Theres also conceivably a reason to put surge tokens on units that already have surge innately too.

43 minutes ago, Khobai said:

imperials should definitely have a macro ability and so should rebels.

Imperials should get a macro ability that deals out suppression (something like during the command phase the opponent can either choose to give one of their units a suppression token or the imperial player gets 2 surge tokens) and imperials should get more keywords that benefit from enemy units and their own units having suppression tokens. For example, let imperials spend a surge token to give that unit subjugate 1, which would be a new keyword that allows them reroll one attack pool die if the defender has at least 1 suppression token.

Rebels should get a macro ability that gives them bonuses whenever their own units die. Like each time one of their units get wiped out they get to give X free aim or dodge token to their other units. And they should get more keywords that trigger off their units suffering wounds (i.e. something like the first time a unit suffers a wound each turn it gains a surge token). Rebels should also be able to spend surge tokens as ghetto dodge tokens (roll a red defense die to see if you cancel a hit).

A lot of the time surge tokens just go unused because you dont roll a surge icon on the dice. These new mechanics make sure you can always use surge tokens even if you dont get a surge result. Theres also conceivably a reason to put surge tokens on units that already have surge innately too.

I like your idea for the imperials but i think that aims may be more appropriate than surges for their faction.

for Rebels i think the only way for any rebel to get a surge at the moment is through aggressive tactics, if they had another way of getting them then i like the idea of ghetto dodges but until then it just wouldnt work, maybe for each full unit that has been defeated you can hand out 1 dodge token to a unit of your choice? maybe to a maximum of 3 or 4

8 hours ago, Khobai said:

mandalorians actually arnt as table dependent as other rebel units. thats one good thing about them.

theyre luck dependent more than table dependent.

being speed 3 as opposed to speed 2 makes a pretty big difference. mandalorians can cover a lot more ground than other rebel units.

but its all for nothing if you whiff your saving throws. dodge tokens are cute but they dont really keep mandalorians alive if they whiff their armor saves.

Rebels need a new game mechanic that makes their dodges better. Like if certain criteria are met they get super dodges that can negate two hits instead of one hit.

They have the best save in the game and you say they need a defensive buff?

It's funny that Rebel players always say that red saves are so good and when they get a red save unit of their own it's suddenly "only 2/3 chance to save" and "luck dependant". Well, welcome to the world of red saves, learn to live with it Now you know how DT players feel like.

32 minutes ago, costi said:

They have the best save in the game and you say they need a defensive buff?

It's funny that Rebel players always say that red saves are so good and when they get a red save unit of their own it's suddenly "only 2/3 chance to save" and "luck dependant". Well, welcome to the world of red saves, learn to live with it Now you know how DT players feel like.

Having the best save in the game doesnt necessarily make them the most survivable unit though. Because their wound count is low with only 4 wounds.

A unit's survivability can be determined by taking the units number of wounds and dividing it by the chance of failing its save. That gives you the approximate number of hits it takes to kill the unit.

So mandalorians have 4 wounds divided by 1/3 chance to fail their save = 12 hits

Thats the same as a full unit of stormtroopers. 6 divided by 1/2 chance to fail their save = also 12 hits

So mandalorians really arnt anymore survivable than a full corps unit of stormtroopers despite them costing 20+ points more.

And also having a lower number of wounds makes them more susceptible to luck based deviations because their saving throws are less likely to average out as much as they would with a larger wound pool. Granted luck based deviations can go both ways but the games where you whiff your saving throws with them can be devastating because theyre such an expensive unit.

mandalorians probably shouldve had 2 wounds each with a normal red saving throw without defensive surge. that wouldve made them appreciably more survivable at 16 hits instead of 12 hits.

Quote

It's funny that Rebel players always say that red saves are so good

red saves arnt that good if you also have a low number of wounds.

you need both the red save and the higher number of wounds for it to be good.

thats what rebels are envious of.

The most easily neutered unit in the game

At least clan wren has multi wounds.

I don't think they'll give white surge block to wookiees just to keep Chewie in check

6 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

The most easily neutered unit in the game

At least clan wren has multi wounds.

I don't think they'll give white surge block to wookiees just to keep Chewie in check

they could just lower chewies wounds from 9 to 7. and give him defensive surge. works out about the same.

17 minutes ago, Khobai said:

they could just lower chewies wounds from 9 to 7. and give him defensive surge. works out about the same.

at that point, why change it then? or why print out cards in the first place. This is problem I have with the whole system. Everyone wants a flexible system, even FFG at times, yet they print out these cards and make them seem like the Holy Bible and unalterable. They even print out fancy cards and pass them out at events. But the cards are almost useless and the more they change the rules and points, the more useless the cards are.

"The cards are almost useless" is quite an overstatement.

38 minutes ago, costi said:

"The cards are almost useless" is quite an overstatement.

I kinda wish the cards were just art and the name and then the ability and points cost was in a pdf. Makes changes way easier

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

Having the best save in the game doesnt necessarily make them the most survivable unit though. Because their wound count is low with only 4 wounds.

A unit's survivability can be determined by taking the units number of wounds and dividing it by the chance of failing its save. That gives you the approximate number of hits it takes to kill the unit.

So mandalorians have 4 wounds divided by 1/3 chance to fail their save = 12 hits

Thats the same as a full unit of stormtroopers. 6 divided by 1/2 chance to fail their save = also 12 hits

So mandalorians really arnt anymore survivable than a full corps unit of stormtroopers despite them costing 20+ points more.

And also having a lower number of wounds makes them more susceptible to luck based deviations because their saving throws are less likely to average out as much as they would with a larger wound pool. Granted luck based deviations can go both ways but the games where you whiff your saving throws with them can be devastating because theyre such an expensive unit.

mandalorians probably shouldve had 2 wounds each with a normal red saving throw without defensive surge. that wouldve made them appreciably more survivable at 16 hits instead of 12 hits.

red saves arnt that good if you also have a low number of wounds.

you need both the red save and the higher number of wounds for it to be good.

thats what rebels are envious of.

Tell that to the ARC strike team i hit 10 times in my last game and rolled 10 saves because of surge sharing BS

1 hour ago, costi said:

"The cards are almost useless" is quite an overstatement.

depends on the unit and the type of play (tournament or casual)

I can't remember the last time I looked at the cards. Most of them don't have the full rules on them and you still have to stop your game and scroll through an almost un-readable 80+pg document to find the rule you're looking for. The cards are fairly useless.

5 hours ago, buckero0 said:

at that point, why change it then? or why print out cards in the first place. This is problem I have with the whole system. Everyone wants a flexible system, even FFG at times, yet they print out these cards and make them seem like the Holy Bible and unalterable. They even print out fancy cards and pass them out at events. But the cards are almost useless and the more they change the rules and points, the more useless the cards are.

the reason for changing it is to buff wookiee warriors by giving them defensive surge while simultaneously making sure Chewbacca is consistent with other wookiees (by also giving him defensive surge but lowering his wounds from 9 to 7)

They need to do something similar with Commander Vader and Operative Vader too. Commander Vader should get innate red defensive surge but go from 8 to 7 wounds. Operative Vader should also get innate red defensive surge and stay at 6 wounds. Vader just isnt survivable enough for how slow he is. Its absolutely dumb that Sabine Wren is harder to kill than Operative Vader.

A lot of the older releases need new cards anyway because of changes to the keywords.

I dont see why FFG cant just put new cards online for people to print out and/or periodically release updated card packs for each faction. other games do that and it works perfectly fine.

36 minutes ago, Khobai said:

A lot of the older releases need new cards anyway because of changes to the keywords.

I dont see why FFG cant just put new cards online for people to print out and/or periodically release updated card packs for each faction. other games do that and it works perfectly fine.

Well, then dump the card system (HERESY!) and just print a pdf version of cards, or stats or whatever for the army.

the pdf is 92 pages. If you stuck all the stats or made the unit cards available for all 4 factions at the end of the pdf, it would still be under 100pages. They could get rid of the printing cards cost (save money or make the boxes less expensive) in production and have a more flexible system.

Just because all their other games have cards, doesn't mean they have to keep making the same mistake over, and over, and over, and over again. They honestly didn't fix it in Xwing 2.0.

They could print card packs, other games have done that. I think the cards are a hindrance to the game, but others may like it.

No thanks, I'll take the cards. The changes they've made to unit cards are relatively minor, and pretty easy to keep track of right now. If you don't "use the cards" it's because you're familiar with them from repeated uses not to need to, not that they're useless. I've tried other games where unit abilities are in an army book, and it's definitely less enjoyable, and less newb friendly.