59 minutes ago, RejjeN said:

They don't need a direct line to shoot at, but they still need to see where their target is. I think an argument could be made for them not needing line of sight when used as Fire Support, but not otherwise (unless a rule where they use other units for line of sight is made)

Agreed there would need to be constraints b/c it could get broken really fast. If the rules could get worked out they could also apply to grenades. Or introduce a new projectile/grenade specifically designed for no LoS. No keywords or dice modifiers. Similar range restrictions. Basically something to flush out units from cover but with a really small chance of actually doing any damage.

They might be able to add indirect fire rules for arcing ballistic weapons like mortars that allows them fire support without LoS. And maybe also let them fire on their own without LoS as well as ignore all intervening terrain that the defender isnt touching if another friendly unit within range 1 has LoS and can act as a spotter for them.

You could have direct fire support and indirect fire support. What clone troopers do is direct fire support so they should definitely need LoS for that. You would need to have a seperate rule called indirect fire support for mortars that lets them fire support without LoS.

The AT-ST's mortar launcher would certainly be more useful if it could shoot over buildings. Not that 3 white dice is all that threatening to a unit in heavy cover, but it could still give suppression tokens. The at-st's mortar launcher should also have fire support the only reason it probably doesnt is because its an older model. Not that it would really be that useful past turn 1, but it might be kindve funny to fire support a unit with range 4 and combine it shoretrooper mortars and bossk+reptilian rampage or palpatine's give into your anger to stack a bunch of suppression tokens on enemy units turn 1.

39 minutes ago, Khobai said:

The AT-ST's mortar launcher would certainly be more useful if it could shoot over buildings. Not that 3 white dice is all that threatening to a unit in heavy cover, but it could still give suppression tokens. The at-st's mortar launcher should also have fire support the only reason it probably doesnt is because its an older model. Not that it would really be that useful past turn 1, but it might be kindve funny to fire support a unit with range 4 and combine it shoretrooper mortars and bossk+reptilian rampage or palpatine's give into your anger to stack a bunch of suppression tokens on enemy units turn 1.

Suppression is more or less what I would like to see out of it. Forcing units out of cover and into engagement or off of objectives being the end goal. It also gives mortars a little more something to do which will vary from table to table. Our terrain now has a lot of LoS blocking terrain so mortars are not the easiest to get your points value out of. I like the idea of a range 1 friendly spotter.

5 minutes ago, codytx2 said:

Suppression is more or less what I would like to see out of it. Forcing units out of cover and into engagement or off of objectives being the end goal. It also gives mortars a little more something to do which will vary from table to table. Our terrain now has a lot of LoS blocking terrain so mortars are not the easiest to get your points value out of. I like the idea of a range 1 friendly spotter.

What about Scatter? Both Scatter and Suppressive would probably be a bit much, and since the Shoretrooper mortar is literally just the AT-ST mortar but on the ground, it makes sense for the AT-ST mortar to have Suppressive, but I would like to see more things with Scatter.

1 minute ago, Lochlan said:

What about Scatter? Both Scatter and Suppressive would probably be a bit much, and since the Shoretrooper mortar is literally just the AT-ST mortar but on the ground, it makes sense for the AT-ST mortar to have Suppressive, but I would like to see more things with Scatter.

Scatter is interesting. I agree Suppressive also would be a bit much if you take into account mortars are up to range 4. Units could be panicking round 1.

20 minutes ago, codytx2 said:

Units could be panicking round 1.

That can already happen though. With the slightly-forward deployment allowed by Detachment, Mortars can potentially shoot into enemy deployment zones on the first turn (depending on the deployment battle card). DTs and Bossk can use Recon Intel plus a normal move to move up almost 10 inches before they fire their Range 4 Suppressive weapons. And if that isn't enough, Krennic can also drop Annihilation Looms first turn.

57 minutes ago, codytx2 said:

Suppression is more or less what I would like to see out of it. Forcing units out of cover and into engagement or off of objectives being the end goal. It also gives mortars a little more something to do which will vary from table to table. Our terrain now has a lot of LoS blocking terrain so mortars are not the easiest to get your points value out of. I like the idea of a range 1 friendly spotter.

The AT-ST mortar already has suppressive. What it doesnt have is fire support. Its hard for the at-st mortar to actually damage anything with 3 white dice. If the AT-ST could fire support another unit on turn 1 you could give their attack suppressive and add 3 white dice to their attack pool. But the AT-ST is going to have better things to do than fire support after turn 1.

As for scatter, I dont think scatter makes sense on mortars, but I think the sonic charge saboteur having scatter makes sense. I mean if a sonic charge goes off in the middle of a unit theyre gonna be in shock with ruptured eardrums and a disturbed sense of balance. So scatter makes sense to me. Its not a huge buff for sonic charge but it does let you move the unit that set it off out of cover so you can mow them down with another unit. Having both scatter and suppressive on the sonic charge is fine because quite frankly its not that great.

20 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

That can already happen though. With the slightly-forward deployment allowed by Detachment, Mortars can potentially shoot into enemy deployment zones on the first turn (depending on the deployment battle card). DTs and Bossk can use Recon Intel plus a normal move to move up almost 10 inches before they fire their Range 4 Suppressive weapons. And if that isn't enough, Krennic can also drop Annihilation Looms first turn.

All very true but, except for Krennic's command card, terrain can be a factor if something can get a shot on a unit round 1. Once terrain is no longer a factor 3 Suppressive mortar shots would be really powerful. I could see a situation where an Imperial or Clone gun line supported by a mortar line would panic everything off the board.

3 minutes ago, codytx2 said:

All very true but, except for Krennic's command card, terrain can be a factor if something can get a shot on a unit round 1. Once terrain is no longer a factor 3 Suppressive mortar shots would be really powerful. I could see a situation where an Imperial or Clone gun line supported by a mortar line would panic everything off the board.

Ah right, I forgot we were talking about mortars not needing line of sight, lol. In that regard, I think something in your army should need to have line of sight to the defender for a mortar (or anything like that) to make an indirect attack (maybe even something within a certain distance and Los to the mortar, depending on how restrictive it needed to be). That way if something was completely out of Los it would be safe from getting heavily suppressed by multiple mortar shots.

Just now, Lochlan said:

Ah right, I forgot we were talking about mortars not needing line of sight, lol. In that regard, I think something in your army should need to have line of sight to the defender for a mortar (or anything like that) to make an indirect attack (maybe even something within a certain distance and Los to the mortar, depending on how restrictive it needed to be). That way if something was completely out of Los it would be safe from getting heavily suppressed by multiple mortar shots.

Yeah it needs a lot restrictions lol. Even then it may not be balanced.

In general the games I play that have rules for indirect fire from mortars have a dedicated spotter and also don't allow direct fire weapons to attack through friendly units.

Legion doesn't have that sort of requirement on direct fire weapons, but if mortars are going to change to be more "realistic" than so should every other weapon, and friendly trooper (at least) units should block fire lanes.

One of the things with Legion is that the rules are intended to be simple, at least as far as the core rules are concerned, not a simulation.

How about treating the spotter as a weapon upgrade?

Range 1-3 (1-2?), 1 white die, Special Rule Spotter: friendly mortars can Fire Support this attack even without LoS.

Thats kindve janky. Why not make just make it a comms upgrade on the mortar itself?

Sure, why not? It was just a quick idea to make a unit into a designated spotter.

We already have keywords and tokens in the game that could be used for allowing indirect fire; Spotter and Observation tokens, for instance. Allowing them to interact wouldn't be difficult. Alternatively, allowing for a new keyword/comms upgrade that achieves the same purpose could be very cool. Either way, indirect fire would be great to see in the game, and would make mortars and actual artillery useful in the game, and a great counter to strike teams, standby sharing, etc.

I think the gap between 'low tier' and 'highly competitive' units is smaller than some people might think. Sure maybe you don't win Worlds with an Airspeeder but in the last tournaments that I played him he was fairly useful. Keep him alive by careful placement and he does wonders as a late game disruption tool. Fleet troopers and Han are good too if you build your army around them and learn how to play them. Again maybe not Worlds/Invader League top tier competitive but there will always only be a few broken units good enough for that.

Most units could be adjusted with simple point changes. Han Solo, (full) Commandos and Pathfinders are a tad to expensive probably because Low Profile, Danger Sense, Scout and Infitlrate got overvalued. Jyn Erso is basically a support commander and should be costed closer to Leia and Cassian. Wookies might need a greater points reduction and possible some keyword errata (like Scale). There also needs to be more to the MKII Medium Blaster, either a health increase or better yet: the Long Shot (1) keyword. I would have liked to see the Indomitable keyword on Veterans too. Also I almost forgot the awful Landspeeder - yes the weapons are way too expensive and (Open) Transporter rules don't do enough.

Dewbacks and (full) Scouts for the Empire are definitely too expensive. Shoretroopers are just badly designed. They overlap way too much with Stormtroopers in terms of role and playstyle. The Shoretrooper T-21B should be a Range 3 weapon (with points lowered accordingly). Leave the Range 4 Corp weapons to the Stormtroopers.

For CIS I think that Droidekas are a decent unit and only needing a slight point cost reduction.

GAR has a similar problem to the Empire in that two of their Corp troop choices are just to similar to each other. I will be hard to balance Phase 1 and 2s without one being strictly better or more efficient than the other. Maybe removing Standy sharing and thus less reliance on P2s Overwatch upgrade slot could bring out more P1s with their more varied weapons choices (with access to non-cumbersome R4 and R2 Pierce).

In general I would like to see a few upgrades to boost existing units and archetypes. For Rebels a command upgrade that gives Corp units (and the Commander himself?) Outmaneuver. Only in a certain range band? Than there should be a Training upgrade to give Saboteurs a 1-move after arming a device similar to how Bossk's and Sabine's 1-pip work. Right now the action economy of Saboteur strike teams is just too bad.

On 9/11/2020 at 6:47 PM, RyantheFett said:

Looking at the game they don't have that many bad units......... tho the bad units are a raging trash fire that really need to be fixed. Hopefully FFG tries to buff the worse of the worse instead of just nurfing GAR.

CIS:

• Droidekars: Everyone has already said it above way better then I can.

GAR:

• BARCs: Like CIS both these factions only really have one standout bad unit.

Rebels (the faction where the units are either trash or great lol):

• Both heavies. The elephant in the room if you will. Both these units should be first on FFG's list. Landspeeder should be easy with all those weapons they could lower (or just the speeder itself). The airspeeder, oh boy that needs an offensive, defensive, and identity change.............
• Han Solo. He is bad and really needs some help.
• Wookies. Don't really work like you think they should and Mandos sort of seem to do everything they do.
• Pathfinders/Fleets. Both are meh and could use some help, but the above are more pressing issues.

Empire (faction I know the least about, but seems to be seems to be considered the worst):

• Dewbacks. Like the landspeeder it was dead on arrival
• Scout troopers. Could be one of the worse units in the game?
• Opertive Vader and Boba. With the power creep they could use a bit of love.
• A little baby buff on both heavies? They are good, but I would not mine a little push in order to get a heavy meta for a year.

I would add a few more minor buffs:
Rebels:
Mark II
Chewie

Empire:
E-Web
snows
Veers

Empire/Rebels:
officer upgrades, specialist upgrades, some heavy weapon options (especially exaustable weapons)

all factions:

saboteurs
some general upgrade cards

You think E-webs need to be buffed? I actually think the naked unit is perfectly fine for 55 points.

The generator cards need cycle though. Theyre not worth 7 points the way they are now. Theres no reason to use them right now except maybe with Veers because they get a free recover from his command card.

I also think snowtroopers are more or less fine with Gideon Hask. They can play peekaboo at range 3 with a decent attack pool. Its very annoying. Its exactly what they needed.

And im not sure why Veers needs a buff. Hes really good. The only issue I have with him is his garbage 2-pip command card but you dont have to use it.

11 minutes ago, Khobai said:

You think E-webs need to be buffed? I actually think the naked unit is perfectly fine for 55 points.

The generator cards need cycle though. Theyre not worth 7 points the way they are now. Theres no reason to use them right now except maybe with Veers because they get a free recover from his command card.

I also think snowtroopers are mostly fine with Gideon Hask. They can play peekaboo at range 3 with a decent attack pool. Its very annoying.

E-Web needs Range 4, otherwise its too easy to pickoff from R4

Its no easier to pick off than anything else that only costs 55 points.

The E-web should definitely not be range 4. That would be broken. Thered be no reason not to run 3 in every single list. Because it would give empire such a huge firepower advantage over all the range 3 armies while simultaneously adding three cheap activations. That is a big no-no.

I could maybe see a new generator card that gives it +1 black die and long shot. But it should certainly not be range 4 every turn. A new generator card in addition to giving all the generators the cycle rule.

9 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

E-Web needs Range 4, otherwise its too easy to pickoff from R4

Or losing Cumbersome.

At the very least, Long Shot 1.

9 minutes ago, costi said:

Or losing Cumbersome.

At the very least, Long Shot 1.

Cumbersome is fitting for the weapon, but I'd be totally okay with it getting longshot 1

My top pick is Wookies, they need alot of help and I love them. Also make Bistan and pao usable in core units like newer named heavies!

4 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

I would add a few more minor buffs:
Rebels:
Mark II
Chewie

Empire:
E-Web
snows
Veers

Empire/Rebels:
officer upgrades, specialist upgrades, some heavy weapon options (especially exaustable weapons)

all factions:

saboteurs
some general upgrade cards

I try and limit how much I put on the change list since FFG have said over and over how conservative they want to be with the point change (but they also said meta changing). And we don't know if that mean limited number of unit changed or lots of very small changes. A lot of those units are mediocre at best, but I figure some stuff will have to take one for the team lol. Just got to wait and see.

3 hours ago, Lukez said:

My top pick is Wookies, they need alot of help and I love them. Also make Bistan and pao usable in core units like newer named heavies!

Wookies are so weird. You have to run them as a glass cannon that want to shoot a lot behind cover and then maybe charge them in if **** gets real. With mandos being really close to doing the exact same thing I think wookies will get a remake. Maybe make into some real tanky mofos that want to run right down the board getting shot at.......... you know like what they should of been from the start. Still shocked how it only takes one decent shot to pretty much to decimate the unit. Red defense dice may be too much, but I think defense surge may be too little???????????

Mandalorians need a buff.

They really suck.