10 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Do you even know what a strawman argument is? Apparently you dont... because when you refute someones statement that B1s are the best unit in the game by giving reasons why they arnt the best unit in the game that is not a strawman argument. That is in fact a regular argument.

No, it's definitely a straw-man argument on your part. You invented the "best in every category" qualification needed to be the "best unit." No one else did. You have now set that up as what it means to be the best, and then use that to defeat the person's argument. That's pretty much a textbook definition.

Quote

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman ) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.

I'm not a huge fan of B1s myself, but if someone wants to use "pure efficiency" to define the best unit, that is their prerogative. There is no universal definition of "best unit in the game" so inventing one and then using it to discredit another person's opinion is goofy at best.

Anywho, Dooku with Force Choke is really brutal. I've faced him multiple times, and it's never fun without Obi.

18 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Its not my opinion at all. Its a definition. Quality refers to how good an activation is. Quantity is how many activations you get.

B1s give you quantity over quality.

B2s give you quality over quantity.

Its really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

What a lovely opinion you've discovered.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I actually hadn't even heard of this interaction. That's completely nuts. I've heard from one of the playtesters in the facebook group that they're likely to address it in the next RRG update.

They've been saying that about the interaction of Treat/Repair pretty much since R2 came out. It's a similar interaction where you can't actually return a counterpart to the unit because you check the unit card to determine how many wound tokens to place on the mini, not the counterpart card. Since counterparts have less health than the unit, they are immediately defeated again.

I'm surprised that a playtesters said anything, it is my understanding that they are under a very strict ND agreement (a few of my friends are/were playtesters). The nice thing is that on Facebook to claim of being a playtesters is easy to check, as they are credited in the product.

And it isn't that nuts, except for LoS sniping there aren't many other situations where you can voluntarily place a wound on a Leader model.

14 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

And it isn't that nuts, except for LoS sniping there aren't many other situations where you can voluntarily place a wound on a Leader model.

I'm seeing a unit of phase 1s or 2s used specifically to make killing echo cost 10 wounds through clone token sharing and red defense dice while he snipes opponents with crit gen and pierce. All he has to do is cohesion the rest of the unit out of LoS while doing the usual sniper corner dancing...


Cost of an ARC Strike team with 2 minis 3-4 HP (depending if echo zombifies): 61 points

Cost of a Phase 1 unit with 5 minis total and 6-10 HP (depending on if echo zombifies): 92 points

31 points for 4-6 more wounds on a fairly deadly sniper isn't bad.


It certainly doesn't break the game but this is bad interaction.

26 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm surprised that a playtesters said anything, it is my understanding that they are under a very strict ND agreement (a few of my friends are/were playtesters). The nice thing is that on Facebook to claim of being a playtesters is easy to check, as they are credited in the product.

He's fairly active in the community. I've never seen him break NDA but he does come in and post RAI answers when people have questions about janky interactions from time to time. It was easy enough to confirm him, he's listed on a few of the sheets I've seen.

@Darth Sanguis for some reason I didn't think Echo had Leader (I think I conflated him with Del). Okay, that is more nuts than I thought.

Honestly the easiest fix is probably to have the first wound that would go to the leader go around the corner, otherwise there is the potential of bad interactions with units that consist solely of multi-wound models. No change in total wounds for the unit, avoids the interaction, and doesn't cause a situation where you have to place every subsequent wound on the Leader, constantly moving the model.

Thanks for doing the legwork on the double checking of credentials, I guess talking about upcoming RRG changes might be a bit of a gray area. Like I said, I am friends with some of the players in the playtest, and they tend towards a more conservative "no comment" on any questions about potential upcoming changes.

@.art. how did your game go against your friend? I mean this whole thread started because u needed help using a CIS army might as well get back on track

4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Darth Sanguis for some reason I didn't think Echo had Leader (I think I conflated him with Del). Okay, that is more nuts than I thought.

Honestly the easiest fix is probably to have the first wound that would go to the leader go around the corner, otherwise there is the potential of bad interactions with units that consist solely of multi-wound models. No change in total wounds for the unit, avoids the interaction, and doesn't cause a situation where you have to place every subsequent wound on the Leader, constantly moving the model.

Thanks for doing the legwork on the double checking of credentials, I guess talking about upcoming RRG changes might be a bit of a gray area. Like I said, I am friends with some of the players in the playtest, and they tend towards a more conservative "no comment" on any questions about potential upcoming changes.

I think the easiest way to do this is add a clause under the leader keyword that simply states something like this:

When a mini with the leader keyword and a higher HP value than the unit card is defeated before the rest of the unit, place a number of wound tokens equal to it's maximum HP minus the unit card's HP value on the upgrade card for that leader mini , then replace another mini in the unit with the leader mini. The leader mini is treated has having a wound threshold of the difference between these two numbers.

IE, Echo joins a Phase 1 set and is defeated before the rest of the unit. Echo has 2HP. The HP value of the unit is 1, 2 minus 1 means Echo would then have a wound threshold of 1 when replacing a mini. No net gains of HP and no net loss.

It also leaves deign space open for units with higher than 2HP to interact with upgrades too. (like if we end up with 3 HP heavies or more units with 2 HP that echo could be added to).

@Darth Sanguis the issue with that design is now the leader minis can't have Treat or Repair, since those also use wound tokens. It also still leaves the T-Series as a potential weak point for a unit of B2s, since it has a different wound total.

So a design change of "if a Leader model with a different health threshold than the upgraded unit would suffer a wound and is not the last mini in the unit, instead wound another model" would prevent the T-series from significantly decreasing survivability and Echo/Fives from buffing it

Edit: but we'll see what FFG has in mind whenever they get the RRG updated next.

I love B1 units because in this objective based game they are cheap and effective at taking and holding objectives. There are a few scenarios where their value drops by a large margin, but the ability to tar pit your opponent with 30+ bodies that they cannot just ignore completely and at a cost of maybe a fourth of your list? Sign me up every time.

I Main CIS, but I have also played against them. When the opponent lays out 30 or more of the clankers I groan inwardly, cause I know that right there I am going to be throwing at least half my activations at tossing those skinny little trash heaps off objectives. They frustrate, they annoy and once in a while they kill something.

Only faction I find they lose some value against is GAR, but that's more a function of how much firepower GAR has right now than anything else.

On 9/11/2020 at 4:51 PM, lunitic501 said:

@.art. how did your game go against your friend? I mean this whole thread started because u needed help using a CIS army might as well get back on track

As postetd on Page 2 or 3? Lose again, but got good ideas what went wrong. We dont deploy our terrain optimal. Think we will work on that on our next match in tuesday.

EDIT: Oh sorry you mean the new game with STAPs? we dont have the time to play. we were late on the table and assembly was complicated without instructions, so we play on tuesday (hopefully)

On 9/12/2020 at 6:09 PM, .art. said:

As postetd on Page 2 or 3? Lose again, but got good ideas what went wrong. We dont deploy our terrain optimal. Think we will work on that on our next match in tuesday.

I just started playing CIS in our league play right now. I have played A LOT as rebs and Imps but I havent delved deep into CIS yet. I have noticed that I prefer Grevious to Dooku right now. Dooku is a better unit imo with the some of the best command cards in the game, but he struggles getting into his favored range 1-2 without solid terrain which is too table dependent to count on it. His 3 pip is good for a couple of dodges (w/ force reflexes), but he can't take aggressive tactics if you think you need esteemed leader. This limits your team currently. I prefer running Dooku with units that aren't too dependent on that surge to be effective so I can be as aggressive with him as I want, like Staps and BXs, and even B2s.

I prefer GG right now though because you can basically run at your opponent as long as you cohere with your B1s carefully in preparation for GG's 2 pip(spread them out and make sure as many of your high dmg units are able to be in range 1 of as many B1 units as possible to maximize the guardian with GG's 2 pip). I like running Staps and snipers interspersed through the B1s for the 2 pip round. This allows for a lot of firepower that round and the return firepower is guardianed onto the naked B1s. I personally prefer the sabs, but vs GAR you need better range to get by the standby crap. I actually even like putting my snipers in range 3 during this round so I can shoot with 2 red and 2 whites with pierce on 2 of the snipers (both get orders, 1 after the B1 and STAP chain) So you are effectively getting a better shot than Chewy at range 3 for only 50 points (they surge to hit AND they have sharpshooter). This puts some hurt on the opposing army and you last/first your Staps during this round as well, ensuring they do not cohere outside of range 1 from the naked B1s. The B1s just guardian everything and you get GG in position to throw out his 1 pip the following round. I usually try to make it so obvious they try to counter it with a command card of their own and I play his 3 pip instead to draw out some command cards sooner than they want (things like Luke's SoS, Dooku's 2 pip, Hans' 3 pip, Obi's 2 pip, etc).

Staps can get ahead of your army VERY fast. I usually like to run them with linked targeting array since they are so easy to put orders on. I usually move, dodge and shoot. I realize you can get 2 dodges with a move, move shoot, but I have found that to put them too far and they get blasted. I want them to hit at the same time as the rest of my army to force my opponent to choose targets.

When I am able to get GG engaged I love to attack with only 1 saber and shoot out at another unit. This keeps my GG safe longer while killing stuff since they can't shoot at him while he is in melee. Remember this is possible because his gun is versatile (can shoot at other units even when engaged), and he has arsenal 2, allowing him to hit the unit he is engaged with, AND shoot.

I love the BXs full Sab squads with swords and tenacity. 3/4 factions HAVE to focus them otherwise they simply engage with a big attack and dodge/drop mine, or dodge/attack, OR my favorite, attack and drop mine (doesn't happen that often due to needing orders). GG's 2 pip is very helpful for them to get into close quarters with enemies as well.

A lot of people really like loading up B1 squads, but they die so fast I prefer to run them as fodder being careful to choose which units will guardian during GG's 2 pip round to keep as many activations alive as possible. I really like the radiation gun if I do use a heavy with them, and if I have room for beefier squads I usually go with B2s instead of loading up on B1 upgrades. That is my personal preference though, you may feel differently as you play, and that is fine. The biggest problem I have found with Legion is that there are a few vocal talented players that say "this is the meta" and people are too scared to practice teams that vary from that meta. Find what you like then practice it, make small adjustments until you can confidently play against each faction.

You got this. Keep us updated with your games. I love to see success stories, and I'd be happy to be a sound board for your new ideas.

Ok Testgame with STAPs is over. STAPs are great fun, will play them again.

Short report of the game:

First of after a lot of Posts we put more effort in building the table... and do a measurement before: We fill one side of the table with all terrain i got, and it was only filled to 33% - so you are right. it is to less terrain (40% is right?). We took the imperial bunker in to fill that gap. After that we stand the landing plattform as centerpiece in the middle of the table and build a city arround it with nearly no direct firing lines. very very cool setup for the table (i miss to took photos. sorry)

My enemy was so sorry for playing that strong list last time that he build a much more easier list (that s what he said): it was a list with Kennobi, 2x P2 with Mortars, 4x P1 and the Saber Tank with Beam weapon - so way lesser activations this time.

My list was Dooku with Reflexes, Choke, Push and Aggressive Tactics; 6 B1 with various upgrades (i took 2 HQ uplinks this time and wanted to try some other weapons, so i tried the B1 sniper and rocket launchers), 1 Bx sniperteam and 2 STAPS.

Mission was Recover the Supplies, with long marsh and minefield.

First of i did a mistake and misplaced my mines very bad... and i got really bad luck on the mine rolls when activating them (i trigger that mines double and lose nearly the entire squad that triggers it... its like a running gag).

The game was really fun. The clones must came to the middle of the map and dont have good options to form gunlines or castles. that was much easier to handle this time. Unfortunaly Kenobi got into my lines... and as lightsaberwielding space wizzard should do, he shreds a good bunch of the formation. After that we had a showdown between doku and kenobi on the landing plattform to recover the middle objective. Dooku won the fight and was killing the clones on the plattform too... only two squads of the clones were left which 3 models in total. last chance to kill the clones and prevent them to take the objective was to take this stupid ready option and pray for the best... unfortunatly he took a suprising move and moved the tank on top of the landing plattform to flank dooku and removed the ready token. i forgot that the tank is a repulsor vehicle... stupid. but on the other hand i had nothing to prevent that at all.

super fun game and only lose it because of a row of stupid moves and unlucky rolls on triggering mines... but hey it was the first game as CIS for long that was fun. So all good i guess

Oh Question that formed ingame because we dont use forceusers that often: Forces dont need line of sight dont they? on the cards it is only said in range... so we played mind trick and chocke and push trough walls what was extremly effective and it was first time that we dont have the feeling that forceusers are too expensive.

3 hours ago, .art. said:

unfortunatly he took a suprising move and moved the tank on top of the landing plattform to flank dooku and removed the ready token. i forgot that the tank is a repulsor vehicle... stupid. but on the other hand i had nothing to prevent that at all

Repulsor vehicles (without the speeder key word) can only ignore terrain that is half of the model's height or less.

ive never understood why a repulsor vehicle can fly over an at-st but cant fly over terrain of the same height

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

ive never understood why a repulsor vehicle can fly over an at-st but cant fly over terrain of the same height

2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Repulsor vehicles (without the speeder key word) can only ignore terrain that is half of the model's height or less.

to correct both of these a repulsor vehicle that is hover ground can go over terrain equal to its height, but is only treated as a ground vehicle by other units

6 hours ago, .art. said:

Forces dont need line of sight dont they? on the cards it is only said in range... so we played mind trick and chocke and push trough walls what was extremly effective and it was first time that we dont have the feeling that forceusers are too expensive.

Correct unless the ability/card specifically say u need line of sight

52 minutes ago, shuntley said:

to correct both of these a repulsor vehicle that is hover ground can go over terrain equal to its height, but is only treated as a ground vehicle by other units

Wahh then we did it wrong and i had won that game when i kill the clones with the standyby? thats unlucky.

27 minutes ago, lunitic501 said:

Correct unless the ability/card specifically say u need line of sight

Perfect. Then Spacewizzard are super fun!

Today is our Testgame for the new Rebell and Imperial Units. I am really happy to play Empire today. Will be a nice change... stupid white defense dices.