5 hours ago, lunitic501 said:

Your under valuing the B1s coordinate ability and the fact that they are so cheap u can easily fit a decent number of them into a list and still have plenty of room to fit heavy hitters like Grievous, the AAt, or Dooku

Perhaps but every time I attack with B1s they roll blanks. I got sick of it. Nothing is a bigger waste of time than rolling an attack pool full of white dice and praying for crits.

Which is why I prefer B2s. They can actually hit things and they hit them HARD. And they can kill GAR clone troopers in heavy cover without needing crazy one in ten thousand chance lottery rolls.

Im not saying B1s shouldnt be used, I see value in using them as objective holders and guardian fodder and for just enough coordinate to get max surge tokens out of aggressive tactics. I just dont think they work well as the core part of the army.

Ive had way better luck using B2s as the core of the army. Two units of B2s just does so much more damage than three units of B1s. And they arnt that much less survivable.

And while I generally like Grievous and Dooku in a vaccuum I still dont think they play to the strengths of CIS. I believe CIS should be played as a ranged horde army and I feel Grievous and Dooku both contradict how the faction wants to be played. Which is why I really want a cheaper support commander in the 80-90 point range so I dont have to take Grievous or Dooku and can instead take another unit of B2s/Droidekas or even two more units of B1s.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I've been seeing people make a case for putting Force Choke on Dooku lately because of the ability to choose the mini. The argument being you can half a unit's power without even attacking them. Haven't tried it myself but considering the level of units with heavy upgrades equipped in our local meta, it may be interesting.

Yep, I'll take choke before reflexes if I have to choose. Sniping Z6s is great, and for whatever reason, I seem to have a lot of games where there is just a squad leader left who is promptly snuffed out.

Heck, a free wound against a dodged up force user is pretty sweet too.

1 minute ago, Sekac said:

Heck, a free wound against a dodged up force user is pretty sweet too.

Force Choke actually can't target Commanders or Operatives. So until we get Jedi Special Forces or Personnel upgrades or something, no force choking Jedi.

Just now, Lochlan said:

Force Choke actually can't target Commanders or Operatives. So until we get Jedi Special Forces or Personnel upgrades or something, no force choking Jedi.

Da-doi, of course not. Been too long since I've actually read the card, clearly.

I think I'm beginning to rust. Perhaps a bad motivator...

2 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

It definitely helps. Heck it does a quasi "mark for death" on multi wound heavies since you have to assign wounds to already wounded minis first.

Unless of course the Heavy is also the unit leader, and because the leader has to be the last man standing in a unit the dead heavy gets zombified to fight another day.

1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

Unless of course the Heavy is also the unit leader, and because the leader has to be the last man standing in a unit the dead heavy gets zombified to fight another day.

In which case you don't target it, since you know that ahead of time.

On 9/9/2020 at 3:44 AM, lologrelol said:

B1's are the best unit in the game, second to none.

B1s are not the "best unit". Dont confuse cost efficiency with unit quality. They are two separate things.

B1s are probably the most cost effective unit in the game but they are not the best unit in the game. B1s give you highly cost effective but very low quality activations.

B2s on the other hand give you slightly less cost effective but much higher quality activations. If I want to erase an enemy unit off the board before it activates, B1s arnt gonna help me do that, but B2s certainly will. And thats worth them being a little less efficient.

And once again im not saying dont use B1s at all. They certainly have their uses. But they are absolutely abysmal on offense. I definitely think its a trap to use lots of B1s instead of using more aggressive units like B2s. B1s just cant kill anything. And an army of nothing but B1s has miserable offensive output.

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Yep, I'll take choke before reflexes if I have to choose. Sniping Z6s is great, and for whatever reason, I seem to have a lot of games where there is just a squad leader left who is promptly snuffed out.

Heck, a free wound against a dodged up force user is pretty sweet too.

Why do you have to choose?

isnt force reflexes, force push, force choke what people normally take on dooku?

choke is a no brainer on dooku because theres a variety of situations where choke is especially useful. and at the very least it ups his offensive output by 1 extra wound a turn which isnt insignificant.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

Perhaps but every time I attack with B1s they roll blanks. I got sick of it. Nothing is a bigger waste of time than rolling an attack pool full of white dice and praying for crits.

Which is why I prefer B2s. They can actually hit things and they hit them HARD. And they can kill GAR clone troopers in heavy cover without needing crazy one in ten thousand chance lottery rolls.

Im not saying B1s shouldnt be used, I see value in using them as objective holders and guardian fodder and for just enough coordinate to get max surge tokens out of aggressive tactics. I just dont think they work well as the core part of the army.

Ive had way better luck using B2s as the core of the army. Two units of B2s just does so much more damage than three units of B1s. And they arnt that much less survivable.

And while I generally like Grievous and Dooku in a vaccuum I still dont think they play to the strengths of CIS. I believe CIS should be played as a ranged horde army and I feel Grievous and Dooku both contradict how the faction wants to be played. Which is why I really want a cheaper support commander in the 80-90 point range so I dont have to take Grievous or Dooku and can instead take another unit of B2s/Droidekas or even two more units of B1s.

Man Grevious is top tier competitive I don't know how you get to any other conclusion. He is probably my favorite unit in the game because of his versatility and he pairs so well with CIS with his double command slot and their ability to get perfect activation control which is so important with playing single commander lists. He is a very mobile and a super beefy beatstick that can take on anything in the game; and he can be incredibly versatile and damage multiple units at once because of his Annihilator and his 1 pip. His 2 pip is also really good too and can absorb really strong cards such as Son of Skywalker to keep GG healthy. Another boon for GG is that unlike other lightsaber users who largely depend on using deflect to stay alive which requires a dodge token, GG largely uses surges which are given at the start of the round so they don't require you to activate, and because of how much immune deflect and high velocity there is in the game now this is often better than having a dodge token.

5-6 B1 droids are absolutely essential with CIS because order control is king and Coordinate is the key to success with the faction. And with STAP riders coming out tomorrow the strength of Coordinate will only get even more pronounced. I don't know about you but being able to get perfect activation control on a Standing orders turn sounds crazy good to me. This is something that Palpatine has a whole command card for! STAP riders bring a very competitive flanking support unit to CIS that pair really well with B1 droids and I plan on playing a 11 activation GG, 6 b1, 2 snipers, and 2 STAP rider list for a very long time.

20 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Man Grevious is top tier competitive I don't know how you get to any other conclusion. He is probably my favorite unit in the game because of his versatility and he pairs so well with CIS with his double command slot and their ability to get perfect activation control which is so important with playing single commander lists. He is a very mobile and a super beefy beatstick that can take on anything in the game; and he can be incredibly versatile and damage multiple units at once because of his Annihilator and his 1 pip. His 2 pip is also really good too and can absorb really strong cards such as Son of Skywalker to keep GG healthy. Another boon for GG is that unlike other lightsaber users who largely depend on using deflect to stay alive which requires a dodge token, GG largely uses surges which are given at the start of the round so they don't require you to activate, and because of how much immune deflect and high velocity there is in the game now this is often better than having a dodge token.

5-6 B1 droids are absolutely essential with CIS because order control is king and Coordinate is the key to success with the faction. And with STAP riders coming out tomorrow the strength of Coordinate will only get even more pronounced. I don't know about you but being able to get perfect activation control on a Standing orders turn sounds crazy good to me. This is something that Palpatine has a whole command card for! STAP riders bring a very competitive flanking support unit to CIS that pair really well with B1 droids and I plan on playing a 11 activation GG, 6 b1, 2 snipers, and 2 STAP rider list for a very long time.

Its my belief that support commander in the 80-90 point range would be way better than Grievous. It also means you could take 1-2 more droid units. I think Grevious' high points cost holds CIS back from being a true horde army. An extra 1-2 units would really let you swamp the opponent with droids.

My army has perfect activation control even with B2s. Because theyre still corps units.

You certainly dont need 5-6 units of B1s to get perfect activation control. You just give the B2s order tokens last at the end of your coordinate chains.

You definitely need some B1s for coordinate, I have never said otherwise. But I find running all B1s to be completely miserable. I usually run two units of B2s just to add some offensive punch. Otherwise youre rolling all white dice (and maybe a few black dice) and praying for crits and thats awful.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

Why do you have to choose?

To avoid going over points when prioritizing activations over a full kit.

With BXs and soon STAPs, there is a lot more granularity on point ranges to fill out lists so I don't expect I'll be making that hard choice as much. Up until I got my AAT a month ago, I had 2 core sets worth of droids, the B1 upgrade pack, Dooku, and Cad Bane.

So I was pretty locked in with 5 squads of B1s, and some combination of Cad/droidekas and a leader. When your points come in chunks of 100 or 125, sometimes the leader doesn't have the option to kit out as I'd like.

(B2s have never been available in my store)

3 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

Unless of course the Heavy is also the unit leader, and because the leader has to be the last man standing in a unit the dead heavy gets zombified to fight another day.

Actually you can definitely wound the leader and force it to take the next wound.

@Darth Sanguis I believe what is meant by "Zombified" is that when the Leader takes that second wound you remove the leader, the replace a different model with the leader's model. Per current rules wording, no wound tokens are moved with the leader's model, but any wound tokens on the replaced model stay. In a unit full of one wound minis with a two wound leader, that means that you end up with an extra wound in the unit.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

B1s are not the "best unit". Dont confuse cost efficiency with unit quality. They are two separate things.

B1s are probably the most cost effective unit in the game but they are not the best unit in the game.

Thanks semantics keyboard warrior.

1 hour ago, lologrelol said:

Thanks semantics keyboard warrior.

Not even semantics. Just a purely subjective take on what "best" means. Cost-effictivity is what makes units good in any game.

If someone is looking for a "best" unit that does the most damage possible, that's an okay definition of "best", but not if that unit costs 750 points. Cost is inseparable in a points based system.

Cost-effectiveness is quality.

After my first few games of Legion, I too concluded B1s were trash and swore to never add the extra robit.

But one of the most valuable things is since they are so trash, the choices are easier. I don't need them to pull their weight. ****, not pulling their weight is half of what they do!

Since I don’t need B1s to do damage, I rarely bother. I have no problem doing a recover/dodge on an HQ unlink squad, or move/dodge on other units. Dice of opportunity? Sure. When the opportunity presents itself.

A lot of time I do a "save the best for last" approach where I can make players use meaningful activations by using my 5 B1s to do very little. Once it's clear what their options are, use more tactical (and powerful) units to attack units who have already activated because they can't sandbag activations like droids can.

I too am waiting for the cheap T-series so I can make my CIS horde Army, but the people saying that Grievous isn't good clearly aren't playing to his strengths:

Grievous is an area denial death-machine . He compliments the CIS very well by doing this. If you place him out of line of sight (so he can't be shot) with a cheap unit or two covering him (so he won't get overwhelmed), he essentially denies a movement 4 circle of the board (due to scale and relentless). Park him near an objective, or heck, just have him pick it up if he can (scale scale scale). This area of denial allows the rest of your army to focus on other areas and objectives, thus, focusing their fire and reducing the negative aspects of the B1's white damage dice. ALL armies really enjoy pointing most of their guns in 1 direction after all. While he spends the first-half of the game moving out of cover to take pot-shots at anything dumb enough to be at range 2 (you did take his pistol, right?) and jumping back into cover, he's essentially testing your opponent's patience and just baiting them to go after him (and whatever he's defending). Once the moment is right, Grievous should jump out and kill/maim/murder anything that got dumb enough to be within movement 4 of him. If you go last with him, then use his 1 pip to go first the next turn; that's essentially 16 dice, pierce 4, back-to-back and then 4 suppressive dice at EVERY UNIT at range 1. If you plan correctly, that turn is going to be H E L L for your opponent (and if your opponent simply ignores Grievous all game, then just sneak him up from cover to cover and ambush them in a flank). Just be sure to bring an HQ uplink for that turn so you don't lose that sweet sweet CIS activation control. I predict that when we get our cheap T-series droid commander, there's gonna be a lot of CIS players that are going to miss their powerful area denial murder machine.

@samus17 I mean, nothing stops you from taking both a T-Series AND Grievous. Besides the points of course.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@samus17 I mean, nothing stops you from taking both a T-Series AND Grievous. Besides the points of course.

Obviously.

But many of the people begging for a cheap commander (myself included) are doing so to reduce points sunk into the commander slot. My comment about missing the power Grievous brings is directed at the folks who are only gonna bring the T-series.

Just now, samus17 said:

Obviously.

But many of the people begging for a cheap commander (myself included) are doing so to reduce points sunk into the commander slot. My comment about missing the power Grievous brings is directed at the folks who are only gonna bring the T-series.

Yeah, that's fair. I have seen a few people make it sound though like there is no other command option once the T-series comes out, which I get it, more points to spend elsewhere. I was just pointing out that should the CIS players miss the sweet murder machine too much, it's not like they can't jam them both in a list, and depending on the keywords for the T-Series, that might be an interesting combination. A lot of unknown until we get a good look at that card.

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I too am waiting for the cheap T-series so I can make my CIS horde Army, but the people saying that Grievous isn't good clearly aren't playing to his strengths:

But that is exactly the problem with Grievous. You have to play to HIS strengths. Grievous dictates how you have to play your army. Whereas a cheaper support commander would assist you in playing your army however you want.

And its a disadvantage to always have to use Grievous because smart opponents will just veto objectives that Grievous is good at and will even design their lists to counter Grievous knowing that every CIS player has to use him. Suppressive weapons for example are very good against Grievous because once you get him down to one action hes not very good. Grievous is not always good in every scenario or faction matchup and sometimes hes a liability.

I want a cheaper support commander because I dont want to have to use Grievous every game.

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I was just pointing out that should the CIS players miss the sweet murder machine too much

I will not miss him one bit.

5 hours ago, Sekac said:

Not even semantics. Just a purely subjective take on what "best" means. Cost-effictivity is what makes units good in any game.

If someone is looking for a "best" unit that does the most damage possible, that's an okay definition of "best", but not if that unit costs 750 points. Cost is inseparable in a points based system.

Cost-effectiveness is quality.

B1s are straight up not the best unit. That is a fact. Theres no semantics or subjectiveness about it.

They might be the best in the cost effectiveness category but they are not the best in every single category.

And cost effectiveness is NOT quality. Quality is how much a unit can get done during its activation. B1s dont get very much done compared to other units. The cost effectiveness of B1s means you get more activations but it doesnt give you higher quality activations. Both are important in Legion for different reasons. Having more activations than your opponent lets you backload your turns which is especially good for objectives while having higher quality activations lets you frontload your turns and erase enemy units before they get to activate.

On average, a B1 activation will never do as much damage as a B2 activation. So you cannot say a B1 activation is higher quality than a B2 activation. The B2s have a higher quality activation because they do more damage within the span of a single activation.

I have already explained why that matters. Because B2s are far more likely than B1s to be able to erase an enemy unit off the board before it gets to activate. B2s are particularly good for last-first plays where you completely erase an enemy unit to deny them an activation in the following round.

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After my first few games of Legion, I too concluded B1s were trash and swore to never add the extra robit.

B1s arnt trash though and I have never concluded that. They absolutely have their uses. But as far as offensive output goes they suck. B1s absolutely struggle to kill anything with a red saving throw thats in heavy cover. They cant roll enough hits to brute force through heavy cover and you literally have to pray you roll multiple crits to do any damage with them. Too many B1s is why so many CIS players are struggling against GAR. CIS works better when you properly balance the number of B1s with other units that can actually do damage like AATs or B2s.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

B1s arnt trash though and I have never concluded that. They absolutely have their uses. But as far as offensive output goes they suck. B1s absolutely struggle to kill anything with a red saving throw thats in heavy cover. They cant roll enough hits to brute force through heavy cover and you literally have to pray you roll multiple crits to do any damage with them.

This is why so many people playing CIS are struggling against GAR. Its because theyre using too many B1s and dont have enough offensive output to kill clonetroopers.

You are casually leaving out that B2 have range 2 and B1 have coordinate. Both has HUGE impact in the game. You also ignore that Legion is an objective based game and almost all objectives favor B1s.

We have now already a reasonable amount tournament results where B2s were legal. CIS performed very good overall and no B2s near the top field. I think that speaks for itself. But if you think you know it better, I challenge you to go to the next large tournament and prove everybody wrong 😉 .

1 hour ago, SailorMeni said:

You are casually leaving out that B2 have range 2 and B1 have coordinate. Both has HUGE impact in the game. You also ignore that Legion is an objective based game and almost all objectives favor B1s.

We have now already a reasonable amount tournament results where B2s were legal. CIS performed very good overall and no B2s near the top field. I think that speaks for itself. But if you think you know it better, I challenge you to go to the next large tournament and prove everybody wrong 😉 .

I havent casually left anything out. You just didnt read my posts. Ive already explained multiple times that you still need B1s to coordinate onto the B2s at the end of the coordinate chain. Ive also explained multiple times that you still need B1s for holding objectives. I am aware that legion is an objective based game and B1s are great for holding uncontested objectives but not so great at fighting over contested objectives. Thats what B2s are better at.

And B2s have a range 3 heavy weapon. And that range 3 heavy weapon alone does more damage on average than an entire unit of B1s thanks to the blast keyword. B2s can do more damage than B1s at range 3 and they can do more damage than just about anything else in the game at range 2.

And ive even explained why B2s havent seen that much competitive use. Its because Grievous is an expensive commander. Its hard to fit B2s into a list with Grievous because he sucks up a full 25% of your points total. Which is exactly why Ive said numerous times that CIS needs a cheaper commander in the 80-90 point range. I want a cheaper commander specifically so I can run B2s without them feeling crammed in the list.

Of course the other big reason B2s arnt seeing much use is because of the broken standby token sharing which FFG really needs to fix. And when they do B2s will be much better in the CIS vs GAR matchup. Because B2s are how CIS is supposed to counter entrenched clone troopers. Its just the standby token sharing makes it impossible to get near them right now.

10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Darth Sanguis I believe what is meant by "Zombified" is that when the Leader takes that second wound you remove the leader, the replace a different model with the leader's model. Per current rules wording, no wound tokens are moved with the leader's model, but any wound tokens on the replaced model stay. In a unit full of one wound minis with a two wound leader, that means that you end up with an extra wound in the unit.

I actually hadn't even heard of this interaction. That's completely nuts. I've heard from one of the playtesters in the facebook group that they're likely to address it in the next RRG update.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

That is a fact.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I like B1s. Even more because of the fact that I don't have to count on them for damage, the rest of my army can do that. Not every unit in the game is designed to flatten the opposition, such as your proposed support commander. B1s are more of a support corp, as indicated by their ability to take binoculars and scanners and hand out tokens to other, better units for a pretty cheap activation. They are efficient, they are numerous, and they can fill a ton of different roles in your forces while your more specialized tools take on the opposition.

While B2s may hit harder, and I love them almost as much, I would never consider taking them without a sufficient (i.e. larger) supporting amount of B1s. This "fact" alone makes the B1 the more important unit in that relationship. The B1s are really the core of the Separatist army right now, pun intended. The reason every top competitive list loads up with as many of the CIS corps as possible is just an additional testament to this.

If you don't like the B1 and don't use it over other options, that is perfectly acceptable. You're allowed to enjoy your army however you like. But to purport that you alone know how best to use the army for everyone and to elevate your singularly held opinions as fact comes across as incredibly insulting; this is why you are seeing a backlash towards quite a few of your recent comments.

To say "I like B2s more than B1s because they can kill clones" is reasonable and no one would blink twice. To say "B1s can't reliably kill units" is also fine. But when you say:

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

B1s are straight up not the best unit. That is a fact. Theres no semantics or subjectiveness about it.

This will be taken as an opinion and will be critiqued as such.

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

B1s are straight up not the best unit. That is a fact. Theres no semantics or subjectiveness about it.

They might be the best in the cost effectiveness category but they are not the best in every single category.

And cost effectiveness is NOT quality. Quality is how much a unit can get done during its activation.

You need a crash course in the difference between fact and opinion. This is 100% your opinion on what quality means. It is not a fact.

You know perfectly well that nobody posited they are the best "in every single category". Why you're tossing that out a strawman argument is beyond me.

If your opinion of best is defined as "best in every single category" then there is no best unit in the game, and hopefully there never will be. A unit that does the most damage, has the best defense, the best keywords, has the most mobility, and is the cheapest unit in the game would fit your definition of best.

Best=a unit that would undoubtedly ruin the game.

Do I have that right?

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

You know perfectly well that nobody posited they are the best "in every single category". Why you're tossing that out a strawman argument is beyond me.

Do you even know what a strawman argument is? Apparently you dont... because when you refute someones statement that B1s are the best unit in the game by giving reasons why they arnt the best unit in the game that is not a strawman argument. That is in fact a regular argument.

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You need a crash course in the difference between fact and opinion. This is 100% your opinion on what quality means. It is not a fact.

Its not my opinion at all. Its a definition. Quality refers to how good an activation is. Quantity is how many activations you get.

B1s give you quantity over quality. Because they cost less points but their activations are weaker.

B2s give you quality over quantity. Because they cost more points and their activations are stronger.

Its really not that hard of a concept to grasp. And again thats not an opinion. It is a 100% provable difference between the two units.

Besides I dont think most players would associate the term "quality" with B1s anyway given how weak of a unit they are. Theyre a cost efficient unit. And a value unit. Both those terms apply to B1s for sure. But B1s are the exact opposite of being a quality unit. They have the worst attack and save dice in the game.

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If your opinion of best is defined as "best in every single category" then there is no best unit in the game

Of course theres no single best unit in the game. Because theres different units that are the best at different things. Thats why people saying B1s were the best unit in the game was factually wrong and why I argued against it.

If B1s were the" best unit in the game" there would be no reason to ever use anything besides B1s. And if that were the case it would make B1s extremely unbalanced.

All I did was point out that B2s are in fact better than B1s in specific circumstances. And certain people got triggered by the notion of using B2s. B2s really arnt that bad of a unit. People just seem to have some kindve irrational mental block against using them just because theyre range 2 (even though their range 3 heavy weapon does more damage than an entire unit of B1s).