I summon to my side all members of the League of Extraordinary Rule Lawyers! 😁

It is a VERY common and accepted practice among the commentators, players, judges, etc on streams of TTS and Vassal that when a ship engages it gets to turn on its firing arc. I regularly do this, too.

Lately on GSP, they even cited this as a sign of an experienced player. This is commonly done to acquire information based on the simple math of base-counting to set up your initial engagements, maneuver around obstacles, check next round’s maneuvers, etc.

Now, I understand that this may just be a unique factor of online play, but I typically have gotten into the habit IRL play, too.

It is based on the basic rule that all ships engage and get to check their arcs, even if they’re miles apart, you still get a range check. This is all good...

BUT, I frequently see players (and I have also personally done this) flip on their range checks when they’re pointed at a board edge to see if they can complete a K turn or other maneuver without flying off the edge of the board.

While this is commonly accepted, is this legal according to the Range Measuring rules on RR pg#15? It specifically states the range must be measured between OBJECTS. So can I just lay down my ruler in a straight line in front of my ship to gain other info?

Even IF there’s a ship more or less in front of me while I’m facing the board edge, IRL I’d be obliged to measure to that object. So in essence, in this situation, on TTS and Vassal I’m “pirating” this info. IRL I would not have a precise knowledge of the measurement.

I’m not too worried about the accidental knowledge gained through an otherwise legal game check based on the inherent nature of online limitations.

BUT... Should we as a community stop the board edge range check for online play when there is clearly no target?

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdE-QciM4jc&feature=share

53:15 - Nick’s Obi-Wan board edge check
56:40 - Dion’s commentary

Ambiguous.


RR pg 15.

Quote

To measure range between two objects , place the range ruler over the point of the first object that is closest to the second object, then aim the other end of the ruler toward the point of the second object that is closest to the first
object.

While measuring attack range for an attack, the attacker measures to the closest point of the target ship that is in the attacker’s attack arc.

Now, this is just for determining range.

For the attack itself on pg 4

Quote

Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.

Now, this is where it gets fuzzy as by the strictest wording, you haven't verified which ships are 'in arc'. However you are still specifically measuring to the ships themselves. You would not be, in effect, 'sweeping' your arc to see what ships are in it unless its debatable if a ship is in or out. Effectively, this comes down to player ethics and in my eyes, sportsmanship. If it is painfully obvious that no ship can possibly be in your arc or a specific arc, i would say its in bad sportmanship (or bad form as it were) to sweep your range ruler out there to gain information it wasn't intended to gain, but there doesn't appear to be any written, highly specific rule for preventing it if a highly competitive player wants to be a **** about it.

In short, i would leave it up to the TO if the players are in dispute. In casual games, agree which is best.

8 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Ambiguous.

I disagree SLIGHTLY, tho I do agree that it’s mainly a sportsmanship issue.

Even if there’s a ship more or less “in front” but not in arc, EVEN THEN you can not measure directly in front of you.

You would point the ruler as much as possible towards the other ship while keeping it on the arc line.

My own opinion is there ought to be at least a head-fake towards a legit measurement. The less likely something is likely to be in arc or in range, the less precision and time ought to be applied to the measurement. Wave a ruler over the board, not laying it down, not touching it to the ship measuring. Basically, it's fine to check since our eyes can trick us sometimes, but if things look unlikely, the check shouldn't be a precise measurement for something else. Using a clearly out opportunity to gain detailed measurements--ruler right up there, so you'd get a clear picture of k-turn distances--is kind of unsporting. Leaving slack in the check helps avoid at least precision in the measurement.

What to do if someone doesn't? *shrug*

I'm inclined to say that I am fine with this, but if someone objected, I would understand.

Arguing the devil's advocate point of view: if I am not pointing towards a board edge and check my arc and find no objects range 0-3, at what point does this become unacceptable? If a ship is just outside of range 3, I have gained board knowledge without technically measure range to an object. Is that acceptable even though I have not measured between two objects? Perhaps that would be still considered measuring range to a target, but simply that target is out of range. But if that target is clearly out beyond range 4, and you attempt to measure range to that target, would that still be considered measuring range to a target.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I'm inclined to say that I am fine with this, but if someone objected, I would understand.

Arguing the devil's advocate point of view: if I am not pointing towards a board edge and check my arc and find no objects range 0-3, at what point does this become unacceptable? If a ship is just outside of range 3, I have gained board knowledge without technically measure range to an object. Is that acceptable even though I have not measured between two objects? Perhaps that would be still considered measuring range to a target, but simply that target is out of range. But if that target is clearly out beyond range 4, and you attempt to measure range to that target, would that still be considered measuring range to a target.

I disagree with this slightly. Even at Range 4+ you still point your ruler towards an enemy ship or at least in the general direction as required by the rules. I agree with @theBitterFig above on the sporting way to do so.

Pointing your ruler at the board edge where there are no objects is against the rules IMHO.

Edit:

Or pointing your ruler anywhere besides towards an object that you have permission to measure to. Just the board edge is the only other real interest here that I’m aware of....