9 minutes ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

@Schmoozies I'm looking mainly at this quote from her speech in the court:

From her wording, it really sounds like she still intends to become a monk (probably Shinseist) to atone for what she perceives are her sins.

Maybe, but there are other ways to pursue his guidance beyond just becoming a monk.

If Toturi goes to the Onion for help with his next steps, the Kolat might have a whole lot more success with him than they did with Satsume.

Even without patricide, Toturi knows Sotorii shouldn’t be Emperor. But after denouncing the Edict, there’s no legal justification for Daisetsu to inherit. He’s not gonna kill Sotorii. With Kunshu tainted by the blood of an Emperor, does the line of Hantei have any legitimacy anymore?

59 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

As an outside observer looking in and with the information that we have its easy for us to say how could they get it so wrong and jump to the conclusions that lead us here.

But that is the thing we have all the pieces whereas most of the characters in the story are working from a partial set of the clues and are blinded by their own prejudices. The very idea that Sotorii would strike down his own father in the family shrine using the ancestral sword is just so alien a concept for anyone to wrap their head around that they just can't even bring themselves to consider it.

Its far easier to convince yourself that the Scorpion were behind the plot given their nature, and even more so when coupled with the realization that Aramoro was the assassin who attempt to kill Toturi at the same time.

I joked about it earlier, but I'm really looking forward to the day somebody gets the chance to ask Daisetsu what happened the day he ran away with/got abducted by Shahai, because the revelation that the Emperor died by patricide (and that the regency was legit and everyone's unintentionally been trampling the late Emperor's wishes into the mud) is probably going to be the biggest bombshell in the story until someone pipes up that "Hey, the Wall's gone."

14 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

If Toturi goes to the Onion for help with his next steps, the Kolat might have a whole lot more success with him than they did with Satsume.

Even without patricide, Toturi knows Sotorii shouldn’t be Emperor. But after denouncing the Edict, there’s no legal justification for Daisetsu to inherit. He’s not gonna kill Sotorii. With Kunshu tainted by the blood of an Emperor, does the line of Hantei have any legitimacy anymore?

Nah there is plenty of justification for Daisetsu to still inherit (especially once he tells Toturi what he knows about Sotorii and his father's death), you just need to convince Sotorii to either commit Seppuku for his crimes or at the least abdicate in favor of his brother and retire into obscurity. Then its just as planned only no Shoju regent since he not "suitable" for the role.

1 hour ago, DGLaderoute said:

Thank you! It's actually quite remarkable how much opinions of this story vary--some people have told me they hate it, calling it the worst fiction so far, while others have said it's the very best and they love it (even the ones who hate it tend to add that it was well-written, which is nice, but they generally don't like the way the characters behaved). All of these things are right, of course, because every story is a collaboration between writer and reader, because every reader brings their own values, thoughts, beliefs, etc. to the party.

For a variety of reasons I won't get into, this story took a long time to write and underwent a fair bit of work in conjunction with Katrina and Tyler. I'm quite happy with the result. I only wish we could have got Shoju's perspective while Sumiko and Toturi were talking, because I did need to put myself in his head--but, word count, the harsh taskmaster of writers, reared its ugly mug (and it's already a long story!)

The death of the author is the birth of the reader and all that. I "hate" it in the general sense that poor communication kills because all drama, in the end derives from people hiding information for one reason or another that creates this kind of thing. Of course, it's not to say that the poor communication here is on the level of every Hollywood rom-com but it's just my annoyance on how I really like this version of Shoju and he still got blindsided when he was right.

25 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

If Toturi goes to the Onion for help with his next steps, the Kolat might have a whole lot more success with him than they did with Satsume.

Even without patricide, Toturi knows Sotorii shouldn’t be Emperor. But after denouncing the Edict, there’s no legal justification for Daisetsu to inherit. He’s not gonna kill Sotorii. With Kunshu tainted by the blood of an Emperor, does the line of Hantei have any legitimacy anymore?

Well, Kunshu is not what brings legitimacy to the Hantei Dinasty. That would be the Favor of Heavens. One could argue that the current Regent does not have the Favor of Heavens because he allowed the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei to become cursed (or cursed it himself, most will believe) that "proves" Shoju should be removed as Regent and I guess that's how the Clan Wars begin, everyone clan claiming one of their own as regent until the one and true king Emperor, returns.

You’re right. Daisetsu can make himself Emperor at this point just by showing up. Of course, he can’t do that without condemning Shahai to death for striking the body of a Hantei.

Will he want to be Emperor, bound by traditions he disdains?

3 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

The death of the author is the birth of the reader and all that. I "hate" it in the general sense that poor communication kills because all drama, in the end derives from people hiding information for one reason or another that creates this kind of thing. Of course, it's not to say that the poor communication here is on the level of every Hollywood rom-com but it's just my annoyance on how I really like this version of Shoju and he still got blindsided when he was right.

He did get blindsided--by Kachiko. She never told him about Aramoro. If she had, Shoju might have been able to mitigate the damage. As it was, though, he suddenly found himself confronting the Emerald and Ruby Champions, one of whom chose retirement, and the other the FAR more egregious fate of becoming a ronin. Samurai, especially high-ranking ones, who actually CHOOSE to give up their offices and social station as samurai carry enormous weight...so poor Shoju really was caught off-guard, and there was really nothing he could say or do that didn't risk fracturing the Court right on the spot and plunge Rokugan into outright war. I sincerely doubt that he'll ever let that--getting caught off-guard, because of Scorpion disloyalty--happen again.

4 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Clan Wars begin, everyone clan claiming one of their own as regent until the one and true king Emperor, returns.

So the board game version has every clan spread out, except the Scorpion in the capital. The Rabbit Prince Daisetsu is placed in the middle of the board, and the object is to get the rabbit, then move it to a space inthe capital.

9 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Of course, he can’t do that without condemning Shahai to death for striking the body of a Hantei.

Oh, if things go as well as they are implied then Shahai is going to strike the body of a Hantei alright!

3 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

I sincerely doubt that he'll ever let that--getting caught off-guard, because of Scorpion disloyalty--happen again.

Don’t be Aramoro right now. Also, doesn’t Shosuro Hametsu hate his sister for exactly that reason?

If the Master of Poisons goes after Kachiko while Hotaru’s around, the Crane Civil War becomes a Scorpion Civil War at the same time. Love is truly the death of duty and the ruin of monarchs.

43 minutes ago, Mangod said:

I joked about it earlier, but I'm really looking forward to the day somebody gets the chance to ask Daisetsu what happened the day he ran away with/got abducted by Shahai, because the revelation that the Emperor died by patricide (and that the regency was legit and everyone's unintentionally been trampling the late Emperor's wishes into the mud) is probably going to be the biggest bombshell in the story until someone pipes up that "Hey, the Wall's gone."

Worth noting, they may change their minds about Shoju killing the emperor but I am willing to bet most will still think he manipulated the emperor into the asking for the edict. So it would only clear up half the charges (the worst part) but still leave people an out on the edict.

18 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

He did get blindsided--by Kachiko. She never told him about Aramoro. If she had, Shoju might have been able to mitigate the damage. As it was, though, he suddenly found himself confronting the Emerald and Ruby Champions, one of whom chose retirement, and the other the FAR more egregious fate of becoming a ronin. Samurai, especially high-ranking ones, who actually CHOOSE to give up their offices and social station as samurai carry enormous weight...so poor Shoju really was caught off-guard, and there was really nothing he could say or do that didn't risk fracturing the Court right on the spot and plunge Rokugan into outright war. I sincerely doubt that he'll ever let that--getting caught off-guard, because of Scorpion disloyalty--happen again.

Right, I agree he got blindsided by Kachiko way back. The problem being, of course, that deciding not to say anything right away when Toturi and Sumiko announced their retirement and pretty much called him a traitor won't matter much as he will squeeze every body trying to maintain control of a country that is bound to go into a civil war no matter what. Sure, I understand that he also believes in his duty and oath to his old friend to try to keep the peace and protect both his sons, alas, as the old bard said, 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' .

1 minute ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Right, I agree he got blindsided by Kachiko way back. The problem being, of course, that deciding not to say anything right away when Toturi and Sumiko announced their retirement and pretty much called him a traitor won't matter much as he will squeeze every body trying to maintain control of a country that is bound to go into a civil war no matter what. Sure, I understand that he also believes in his duty and oath to his old friend to try to keep the peace and protect both his sons, alas, as the old bard said, 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' .

Or, as Coldplay puts it, "Just a puppet on a lonely string...oh, who would ever want to be king?"

33 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

You’re right. Daisetsu can make himself Emperor at this point just by showing up. Of course, he can’t do that without condemning Shahai to death for striking the body of a Hantei.

Will he want to be Emperor, bound by traditions he disdains?

Which strike? Daisetsu can pretty much say that she did that to protect him, so, sure, you could go the way of the unnamed Seppun that put himself in harm's way to protect Daisetsu of being hit by Sotorii who did not try to disarm (and probably hurting) Sotorii, but one can argue that Satsume **** well hurt Sotorii during their training sessions so it's not like striking a Hantei brings a death penalty by default, circumstances would matter.

1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:

but one can argue that Satsume **** well hurt Sotorii during their training sessions

It's possible to argue that he didn't, which is one of the reasons that he's not as good a swordsman as he thinks.

1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Which strike? Daisetsu can pretty much say that she did that to protect him,

Doesn’t matter. If it did, they wouldn’t have run in the first place. Daisetsu knows his brother killed his father, and still fled because to stay was to condemn the women he loves to death. Even as a father- and Emperor-killing monster, Sotorii is still Hantei, and what Shahai did demands her death.

13 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Doesn’t matter. If it did, they wouldn’t have run in the first place. Daisetsu knows his brother killed his father, and still fled because to stay was to condemn the women he loves to death. Even as a father- and Emperor-killing monster, Sotorii is still Hantei, and what Shahai did demands her death.

Well, kind of? Again, this is just me saying as someone that knows how to game the game. If he provides testimony saying that Sotorii was not truly son of the late Emperor and that was he was removed from the line of inheritance, then he wasn't a Hantei, was he? I mean, he kind of already knows that Bushido is just a tool of control.

And on a total different tangent, I am surprised how the foul language of these forums supposedly are controlled by a really religious grandmother, because the place where bad people go when they die according to christians becomes a string of * as well as the word dam followed by an 'n'. I mean, what is going? At least, I can bypass all that just cursing in portuguese, if I want to.

Daisetsu can’t claim Sotorii’s illegitimate as long as their mother Hantei Hochiahime is still alive. Jodan may have used precedent to deny him the title of heir, but he wasn’t cast out of the Imperial family. Until he’s executed, dispossessed as ronin or retires to a monastery, he is still Hantei Sotorii.

The counter-argument that Shahai had done it in defence of Daisetsu’s life would be met with agreement for honourable seppuku or exile as a ronin. Daisetsu chose the last option, and decided to join her.

35 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Daisetsu can’t claim Sotorii’s illegitimate as long as their mother Hantei Hochiahime is still alive. Jodan may have used precedent to deny him the title of heir, but he wasn’t cast out of the Imperial family. Until he’s executed, dispossessed as ronin or retires to a monastery, he is still Hantei Sotorii.

The counter-argument that Shahai had done it in defence of Daisetsu’s life would be met with agreement for honourable seppuku or exile as a ronin. Daisetsu chose the last option, and decided to join her.

She is? I thought she was dead. Uhm, where did I got that impression? 😕

She’s lived in seclusion since the birth of Daisetsu. In Sotorii’s inner monologue, taking his mother away is his younger brother’s cardinal sin.

Knowing that Hantei Jodan may have had a romantic relation with Kakita Ryoku, it is entirely possible that Daisetsu is the illegitimate one, and that Hochiahime has lived a life of silent protest since.

11 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Which strike? Daisetsu can pretty much say that she did that to protect him

Daisetsu can say that there was no strike in the first place and none will be wiser.

By the way, I was thinking, and didn't Toturi miss a very important detail in his big "a random Scorpion just waltzed into the Emperor's chambers and killed him with the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei" scenario? Like, shouldn't there be a certain group of people whose task is to prevent this? And if the scenario is correct - as Toturi thinks - doesn't that implicate these people as collaborators? Heck, if this scenario is taken seriously, then Kaede can be a collaborator due to the circumstances.

5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Daisetsu can say that there was no strike in the first place and none will be wiser.

By the way, I was thinking, and didn't Toturi miss a very important detail in his big "a random Scorpion just waltzed into the Emperor's chambers and killed him with the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei" scenario? Like, shouldn't there be a certain group of people whose task is to prevent this? And if the scenario is correct - as Toturi thinks - doesn't that implicate these people as collaborators? Heck, if this scenario is taken seriously, then Kaede can be a collaborator due to the circumstances.

Well yes, but Toturi also had first hand experience with one of his own personal guards actually being a Scorpion plant who turned on him and tried to assist Aramoro in his own "failed" assassination attempt so their is the kernel of the idea that if they could get to me, why not the Emperor as well.

8 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Well yes, but Toturi also had first hand experience with one of his own personal guards actually being a Scorpion plant who turned on him and tried to assist Aramoro in his own "failed" assassination attempt so their is the kernel of the idea that if they could get to me, why not the Emperor as well.

I do wonder if Toturi will ever consider that the Seppun might be in bed with Shoju. There is no way that the Scorpion could pull a triple-infiltration (Emperor, sword, Toturi) right under the nose of the Seppun, in their very own home turf. And, of course, the real glitch in the scenario also rears its ugly head: what was the point of using the sword? Why did the Scorpion insist on killing the Emperor with the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei? That sounds highly counter-productive, to say at least.

23 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I do wonder if Toturi will ever consider that the Seppun might be in bed with Shoju. There is no way that the Scorpion could pull a triple-infiltration (Emperor, sword, Toturi) right under the nose of the Seppun, in their very own home turf. And, of course, the real glitch in the scenario also rears its ugly head: what was the point of using the sword? Why did the Scorpion insist on killing the Emperor with the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei? That sounds highly counter-productive, to say at least.

Along those lines, shouldn't he and Sumiko know about the wards? Shouldn't that be something everyone with a position of power be considering?