I was never a fan of the reprinting duplicates of cards in the new packs, but I understand they did it for those that choose to play pre-constructed. I personally play Summoner Wars this way, so I appreciate that sort of gesture that FFG makes.

But they are handling it terribly. The five resource cards are obvious choices, and then some of the better neutral cards like Hellicarrier or Nick Fury make sense to include too.

I just opened my Black Widow pack. In what universe is Surveillance Team a necessity? I've felt this way about a lot of the choices, Get Behind Me!, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, these are not for the most part necessary cards to be able to use a deck. Make the Call is a key part of leadership and acceptable to include (although it doesn't fit the best with Cap's ability), but why does Hawkeye need to be in Cap's deck?

Some of these choices seem just lazy to be honest. Am I alone in feeling this way?

I agree greater diversity would be nice.

I am going to capitalize on it, however. I currently have generic, sub-par decks for each class that I mix-'n'-match with each hero so I can play whomever without any building time. That said, Spider-Woman has been something I'm not looking forward to as she cannot be simply mixed or matched. I will be using the duplicates to create 4 mini class decks that I can choose from just for her - so now that we've seen the same cards repurposed through each class, I'd like to see some others. The 2 cards I'd really like to see again aren't in the core set, but Ms. Marvel's: Downtime & Endurance. I include these in every deck I have, but I only have 3 of them. If I am playing with 4 players, I'd like the option. Plus my Spider-Woman deck will have a very few Basic cards, so I need 2 more of each of them. Yeah, another Mansion, Helicarrier, & Nick would be nice.

2 hours ago, Supertoe said:

I just opened my Black Widow pack. In what universe is Surveillance Team a necessity? I've felt this way about a lot of the choices, Get Behind Me!, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, these are not for the most part necessary cards to be able to use a deck. Make the Call is a key part of leadership and acceptable to include (although it doesn't fit the best with Cap's ability), but why does Hawkeye need to be in Cap's deck?

Some of these choices seem just lazy to be honest. Am I alone in feeling this way?

I think part of the precon decks is the story telling. If a deck tells a story I can really get into it. I imagine Hawkeye assembling with Cap, and I can see Black Widow having the support of a surveillance team.

If every leadership deck came with three copies of Make the call I’d find that boring.

Thats just my take though, it’s kind of the same reason I can’t stand playing Thor Justice, it just doesn’t feel right in my mental narrative.

The reprints tend to be where they need to put 2 of a card in and therefore cannot add an extra 3 of. I’d have preferred a new ally in place if Hawkeye and Mockingbird in Caps deck, but I don’t generally mind. The announced Ant Man deck has the least amount of reprints so far according to the pack back, so I think it’s generally moving in the right direction...

2 hours ago, FearLord said:

The reprints tend to be where they need to put 2 of a card in and therefore cannot add an extra 3 of. I’d have preferred a new ally in place if Hawkeye and Mockingbird in Caps deck, but I don’t generally mind. The announced Ant Man deck has the least amount of reprints so far according to the pack back, so I think it’s generally moving in the right direction...

Yeah, hopefully it ends up as just the five resource cards (or honestly even just the neutrals is probably fine).

The time needed for design and testing is a much greater limitation than printing costs, so it is a false dichotomy to think that fewer reprints would mean more new cards. What goes into the precon decks should be about what is needed to make an interesting playable deck not what value the reprints have outside that deck.

3 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

The time needed for design and testing is a much greater limitation than printing costs, so it is a false dichotomy to think that fewer reprints would mean more new cards. What goes into the precon decks should be about what is needed to make an interesting playable deck not what value the reprints have outside that deck.

Doesn't every hero pack have an identical number of cards? If that is the case, then yes, less reprints do specifically mean more new cards.

Scenario packs, on the other hand, have slightly varying numbers, so in the case of that product, you would be correct that fewer reprints might not necessarily mean new cards.

39 minutes ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Doesn't every hero pack have an identical number of cards? If that is the case, then yes, less reprints do specifically mean more new cards.

Scenario packs, on the other hand, have slightly varying numbers, so in the case of that product, you would be correct that fewer reprints might not necessarily mean new cards.

No, because the time to design those cards doesn't go down. So say if each pack had twice as many new cards, what would actually happen is packs would come out half as often because each one would take twice as long to make.

The real question is what % of the player base is engaging with the pre-con. They have felt rather hit and miss in this first cycle and most players I know personally are long term LCG players that just rip the decks apart for key cards. I can't complain too much about reprints as we get a new way to play the game each time with a new hero set. My concern for reprints is actually them feeling locked into the 3 x double resources for far too long rather than designing or providing a close alternative to work with certain heroes so to vary those 3 card slots.

1 hour ago, HamHamJ2 said:

No, because the time to design those cards doesn't go down. So say if each pack had twice as many new cards, what would actually happen is packs would come out half as often because each one would take twice as long to make.

Nobody said anything about adding twice as many new cards. We were talking about reducing the number of reprints per pack, which is currently around 5-8 cards.

Adding 5-ish new cards to a 60 card pack (8%) would not increase the time needed to design each pack by 100%.

What might happen is a very slight increase in the length of time between packs, or more likely, just a decrease in the amount of iterations a card gets in playtesting before the file gets sent off to the printer.

36 minutes ago, AlterEgos said:

The real question is what % of the player base is engaging with the pre-con. They have felt rather hit and miss in this first cycle and most players I know personally are long term LCG players that just rip the decks apart for key cards. I can't complain too much about reprints as we get a new way to play the game each time with a new hero set. My concern for reprints is actually them feeling locked into the 3 x double resources for far too long rather than designing or providing a close alternative to work with certain heroes so to vary those 3 card slots.

I always play a bit with every Pre Con before using the cards for deck building. I enjoy the challenge of playing the deck you’re given, rather than optimising everything and it’s a good opportunity to play with some cards that otherwise might seem niche or inferior to something else...

I think deck building is a huge barrier to entry for these games that have traditionally kept them for more traditional card gamers. Having pre Con decks opens the game up to a much more casual market, so I imagine there are a great many players who never bother to deck build and only engage with the decks as they are...

59 minutes ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Nobody said anything about adding twice as many new cards. We were talking about reducing the number of reprints per pack, which is currently around 5-8 cards.

Adding 5-ish new cards to a 60 card pack (8%) would not increase the time needed to design each pack by 100%.

What might happen is a very slight increase in the length of time between packs, or more likely, just a decrease in the amount of iterations a card gets in playtesting before the file gets sent off to the printer.

When you state that twice the amount of cards isn’t being asked, then ask for the same amount we’re currently getting to be doubled you should realize the statement conflicts.

And you never should potentially advocate for decreased playtest time. That just leads to certain card becoming overpowered. You can always increase playtest time, but under no circumstances decrease it.

You’ll never be rid of reprints because as the card pool grows you still see more cards getting reprinted, even if other earlier ones see next to no reprints anymore.

1 minute ago, Hyperjayman said:

When you state that twice the amount of cards isn’t being asked, then ask for the same amount we’re currently getting to be doubled you should realize the statement conflicts.

What are you talking about? I never asked for such a thing. As far as I can tell, no one did.

Where are you guys getting that anyone asked for anything to be doubled?

3 minutes ago, Hyperjayman said:

And you never should potentially advocate for decreased playtest time. That just leads to certain card becoming overpowered. You can always increase playtest time, but under no circumstances decrease it.

And I never advocated for that, either. I expressed that it was a possible consequence of adding more new cards, not that it was anything I desired.

3 minutes ago, Hyperjayman said:

You’ll never be rid of reprints because as the card pool grows you still see more cards getting reprinted, even if other earlier ones see next to no reprints anymore.

And never asked for that, either. (But someone else in the thread might have) Although I don't think it's necessarily a correct position given that this lcg is actually unique in having regular reprints, which no other lcg has. For other lcgs, reprints have mostly only occurred in new editions, or special sets outside of the normal release cycle. Champions is the outlier compared to other FFG games, not the norm. So who is to say what the amount of reprints will look like down the road? This is essentially new territory for an lcg.

As far as I can see, "doubling" the number of new cards has only been brought up as a bad faith argument against having a slight shift in terms of the number of reprints vs. new cards.

It's really weird that two separate people have now tried to knock down an argument that no one in this thread actually made.

7 hours ago, FearLord said:

I always play a bit with every Pre Con before using the cards for deck building. I enjoy the challenge of playing the deck you’re given, rather than optimising everything and it’s a good opportunity to play with some cards that otherwise might seem niche or inferior to something else...

I think deck building is a huge barrier to entry for these games that have traditionally kept them for more traditional card gamers. Having pre Con decks opens the game up to a much more casual market, so I imagine there are a great many players who never bother to deck build and only engage with the decks as they are...

I agree with you entirely, my personal experience is the same as yours. I hear the casual market statement all the time but never see any marketing or push towards that other than anecdotal, Have you heard of any other things that are been done to ensure the product is reaching said casual market? It is nice to think this game is going to be largely successful thanks to pre-cons and low barrier to entry!

41 minutes ago, AlterEgos said:

I agree with you entirely, my personal experience is the same as yours. I hear the casual market statement all the time but never see any marketing or push towards that other than anecdotal, Have you heard of any other things that are been done to ensure the product is reaching said casual market? It is nice to think this game is going to be largely successful thanks to pre-cons and low barrier to entry!

At least before lockdown, I saw the game appearing in more 'mainstream' places, like an academic bookshop which stocks Pandemic and Ticket to Ride, but not L5R or Arkham. This implies that it is being aimed at boardgamers as much as C/LCGers

personally I like the reprints. I try having each hero that has been released built as I supply the decks for my entire group. One brother likes to play Thor. One plays Dr. Strange. My nephew flips between Spiderman and Iron Man. One friend has played Hulk and She Hulk. Another wants to try someone different every game. As do I. So pretty much every hero gets played at least once a month. I don't particularly enjoy the deck building process so once I find one that works I like to keep it.

But to keep that many decks built, I am going to end up with say...multiple leadership decks. If they were reprinting Squirrel Girl, I would not need to buy a second Cap deck. Beat Cop is a fantastic card...do I want to buy two Hulk Decks? I am all for more reprints. And unlike Bad Publicity, I like having Avengers Mansions and Helicarriers for every deck.

I get not everybody likes them and they are right for their reasons, but some of us do like them and are right for our reasons also.

1 hour ago, AlterEgos said:

I agree with you entirely, my personal experience is the same as yours. I hear the casual market statement all the time but never see any marketing or push towards that other than anecdotal, Have you heard of any other things that are been done to ensure the product is reaching said casual market? It is nice to think this game is going to be largely successful thanks to pre-cons and low barrier to entry!

Anecdotally my brother in law enjoys these types of games a lot, but isn’t willing to spend the time or energy on understanding the meta or deck building. KeyForge was excellent for him as it allowed us to play complicated card games together, but on a more level playing field (than the alternative of him making a sub par deck from cards he liked the look of or me making both decks). He owns several decks of his own and he doesn’t really own anything ‘gaming’ of their own.

I play a lot of miniature games and board games, but a lot of my friends don’t enjoy card games because if the deck building component - it’s surprisingly off putting to some people. I’ve introduced Marvel Champions to people as more of a board game, and everyone has found it fun to play that way...

I’d have no quarms about recommending the core set as a game in the box to people, but I wouldn’t recommend that for say legend of the five rings (which needs more than one box for one thing!)

I haven’t seen much in the way of advertising for it, but I believe they did include print ads in physical copies of Marvel Comics and I have seen it sold in book stores...

That's awesome if it's advertised in the comics! I didn't realise that! Thanks for the information. I agree about the core set box an easy recommend to any board game player. Hero packs are something that can tempt them afterwards :P. I recently built for the podcast decks to reflect the original Avengers MCU team as a way to get new players into the game. Hoping they have some success once I can attend in person games again in a month or so time... Thanks for the info FearLord!

10 hours ago, AlterEgos said:

The real question is what % of the player base is engaging with the pre-con. They have felt rather hit and miss in this first cycle and most players I know personally are long term LCG players that just rip the decks apart for key cards. I can't complain too much about reprints as we get a new way to play the game each time with a new hero set. My concern for reprints is actually them feeling locked into the 3 x double resources for far too long rather than designing or providing a close alternative to work with certain heroes so to vary those 3 card slots.

1 hour ago, AlterEgos said:

I agree with you entirely, my personal experience is the same as yours. I hear the casual market statement all the time but never see any marketing or push towards that other than anecdotal, Have you heard of any other things that are been done to ensure the product is reaching said casual market? It is nice to think this game is going to be largely successful thanks to pre-cons and low barrier to entry!

I hadn't been, then with Thor (I think) I started trying the pre-cons. It's pretty fun. They're usually geared toward a specific idea the character can be used for. Then, I rip them apart and choose which cards to add to my class decks.

Im actually glad Hawkeye is in caps deck a second one is good for my deck building (2nd leadership deck). I have more than enough Hellicarriers and Av Mansions, I also prefer Mockingbird (I have 6-8 decks that can go in) over Make the Call which gets less play the more useful allies they make.

11 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Doesn't every hero pack have an identical number of cards? If that is the case, then yes, less reprints do specifically mean more new cards.

Not necessarily (depending on your method of counting), it could just mean more copies of the same new card.

The back of the box is misleading in this way... Black Widows box says 27 new cards but with dupes there is really only 26 "new" cards to get to 27 they have to count Counter Intelligence 3 times.

Where as with Dr. Strange we really get 33 new cards but the back box only says 24 because they dont count the identity cards, invocations, and the 1 Iron Man only counts once.

16 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

The time needed for design and testing is a much greater limitation than printing costs, so it is a false dichotomy to think that fewer reprints would mean more new cards. What goes into the precon decks should be about what is needed to make an interesting playable deck not what value the reprints have outside that deck.

Speaking as someone who has substantial experience within the world of board/card game development (including 4 years on the playtest team for a popular LCG), this is completely false.

1. The vast majority of cards undergo 0 or 1 changes during the playtesting process. Much of the process is usually about trying to fix one or two "problem cards", or about tweaking the wording and rules resolution of cards (is this an "Interrupt" or "Response", etc.).

2. These lead developer types usually have hundreds upon hundreds of card ideas they pull from to make a set. It's not as if they walk into work and design a single deck. Everything is made within a broader big picture full of ideas about what's to come.

3. This is the first LCG ever to give duplicates. Ever. Acting as if it's the only sustainable choice is empirically false.

4. You can playtest multiple cards at once. It's not like we ever got handed a thing of "Test X card, then Y, then Z", we'd just build decks using all 3. Since pre-con is the primary focus of FFG, replacing the reprints with actual cards for precon would not make testing said precon deck any harder.

5. How is Surveillance Team needed to make an interesting playable deck? Or Get Behind Me??? I can't understand why people are defending these choices. It's not like they reprinted For Justice in Black Widow. My problem is that as DarthWeasel said, there is some value to reprints, if they reprint good cards. The problem is that they've reprinted some really useless cards, and some cards that anyone that owns a core set has 4 copies of already.

I have ZERO problem with them reprinting cards to make a deck playable. The problem is that there seems to be no logical reason for many reprints.

Somewhere the designers stated that they use reprints to include effects they want that already exist and to make the deck thematic.

In Black Widow's case, I imagine what happened is that they have already selected the new Justice cards they want to put in, the two preparation cards, Coulson, Quake, Stealth Strike. They put in the 3 basic double resource, a basic preparation card, and decide on Quincarrier to round out the Basics.

At this point, they know they need 4 more Justice cards. They decide they want a support since they have Justice allies, upgrades, and an event. They also want to keep the cards in the deck spy themed.

Their two choices are to make a new spy themed support (3 copies) and include another one of (probably an ally reprint like Jessica Jones) or use Surveillance Team and Interrogation Room which already fit what they are looking for.

Perhaps they felt a new spy themed support would be redundant since those already exist.

Whether you like getting reprints or not, it remains true that one hero pack opens up an entirely new deck type, which is different than both previous co op LCG's.

16 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Nobody said anything about adding twice as many new cards. We were talking about reducing the number of reprints per pack, which is currently around 5-8 cards.

Adding 5-ish new cards to a 60 card pack (8%) would not increase the time needed to design each pack by 100%.

What might happen is a very slight increase in the length of time between packs, or more likely, just a decrease in the amount of iterations a card gets in playtesting before the file gets sent off to the printer.

There are just over 20 unique new cards in most packs, not counting the nemesis and identity card. 5 more on top of that is closer to a 25% increase, not 8%. Probably relatively more as like half of those are hero specific and thus less complicated as they can only be used all or none as a set.