New Fiction - The Stained Cup

By Pompz1, in L5R LCG: Lore Discussion

15 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

I actually would love no Second Day of Thunder.

The Second Day of Thunder is a fundament of the setting. If you're not going to have it why even bother retelling the Clan Wars?

Because you could have something like the Sengoku Jidai?

It bothers me to no end have a setting where in 100 years there were not one, not two, not three but four cataclysmic events where theoretically lots of samurai were killed but somehow the fabric of society remained the same. I think L5R works better as a setting where the main conflict comes from humans disagreeing with other humans than having the BIG SUPERNATURAL BAD OF THE DECADE.

5 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Because you could have something like the Sengoku Jidai?

It bothers me to no end have a setting where in 100 years there were not one, not two, not three but four cataclysmic events where theoretically lots of samurai were killed but somehow the fabric of society remained the same. I think L5R works better as a setting where the main conflict comes from humans disagreeing with other humans than having the BIG SUPERNATURAL BAD OF THE DECADE.

I definitely had "existential threat fatigue" by the end of AEG's run. The Second Day of Thunder, the whole mess with the lying Darkness (hastily introduced because Fu Leng was dead and we needed a new Big Bad), the Third Rise of Iuchiban, Naseru wandering off to the Shadowlands for even more absurd explode-a-palooza action, the War of Dark Fire seguing into the Destroyer War, and the Spider's betrayal and plot-mandated victory next on the docket...

All in roughly a century.

Plus, in this instance, with all of those thing having not happened in this setting? A lot of the dumber things about the setting got baked in by the way the Second Day of Thunder went down.

But this is Rokugan, where they breed killers of gods.

I mean, if you're going to just throw out a core part of the lore that's existed for over two decades why even bother calling it L5R at that point? Why not just start an origional IP that doesn't have all the baggage?

1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

But this is Rokugan, where they breed killers of gods.

Deicide is a lot more impressive when it doesn't happen with the regularity of Spiderman webbing up a purse-snatcher.

Now, I actually agree that the Second Day of Thunder is a really big part of the setting, arguably integral to the setting, but I also agree with Diogo & Gunichi that there's no need to rush into it - let the situation deteriorate a bit more; watching Rome burn while playing the fiddle is fun .

Also:

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I definitely had "existential threat fatigue" by the end of AEG's run. The Second Day of Thunder, the whole mess with the lying Darkness (hastily introduced because Fu Leng was dead and we needed a new Big Bad), the Third Rise of Iuchiban, Naseru wandering off to the Shadowlands for even more absurd explode-a-palooza action, the War of Dark Fire seguing into the Destroyer War, and the Spider's betrayal and plot-mandated victory next on the docket...

All in roughly a century.

This. So much this. This is also why, while I want them to do the Second Day of Thunder, I also want them to take their time and savor the event and its aftermath. Otherwise, I'm afraid we'll end up in the same situation as O5R where, in the span of 77 years, we had:

  1. The Clan War.
  2. The Second Day of Thunder.
  3. The War Against Shadow.
  4. The War of Spirits.
  5. The Dragon-Phoenix War.
  6. The Second Yasuki War.
  7. The War of the Rich Frog.
  8. The War of Fire and Thunder.
  9. The Winter of Red Snows.
  10. The Third Yasuki War.
  11. The War of Dark Fire.
  12. The Destroyer War.
  13. The War of the Twins.
  14. The Mantis-Crane War.
  15. The Heretic War.
  16. The Serpent War.
  17. The Spider Clan conquering the Empire.

Again, all of that happened within 77 years. And with the exception of some of the early stuff post-SDoT, there was almost no consequence from any of it. You need to take your time with big, apocalyptic events, otherwise they lose all gravitas they might have had.

Edited by Mangod
1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

But this is Rokugan, where they breed killers of gods.

I mean, if you're going to just throw out a core part of the lore that's existed for over two decades why even bother calling it L5R at that point? Why not just start an origional IP that doesn't have all the baggage?

Like I said, because it doesn’t make any sense. I mean, you do know that the original CCG should have run only to the Second Day of Thunder and that was it, right? It just that it was successful enough that John Wick decided to keep the game running. The problem, of course, is that if you finally reached your endgame what else can you write to top it off? And yes, if Rokugani can kill any random God every twenty years, is it really impressive?

2 hours ago, Mangod said:

Deicide is a lot more impressive when it doesn't happen with the regularity of Spiderman webbing up a purse-snatcher.

Thor fights god tier opposition on a fairly regular basis and no one seems to mind. The relative power levels of the combatants is kind of irrelevant as long as the story's well written.

2 hours ago, Mangod said:

Now, I actually agree that the Second Day of Thunder is a really big part of the setting, arguably integral to the setting, but I also agree with Diogo & Gunichi that there's no need to rush into it - let the situation deteriorate a bit more; watching Rome burn while playing the fiddle is fun .

There is a significant difference between not rushing it and it not happening at all. I don't expect it to happen next month but I do expect it to happen eventually.

I mean, we only just had the Scorpion Clan Coup equivalent. The Clan War hasn't even gotten started properly yet. There's time.

2 hours ago, Mangod said:
  • The Clan War.
  • The Second Day of Thunder.
  • The War Against Shadow.
  • The War of Spirits.
  • The Dragon-Phoenix War.
  • The Second Yasuki War.
  • The War of the Rich Frog.
  • The War of Fire and Thunder.
  • The Winter of Red Snows.
  • The Third Yasuki War.
  • The War of Dark Fire.
  • The Destroyer War.
  • The War of the Twins.
  • The Mantis-Crane War.
  • The Heretic War.
  • The Serpent War.
  • The Spider Clan conquering the Empire.

Only, like, three if those involved god tier opponents. Four if you count Pan'Ku. The rest were all mortals fighting amongst themselves. And, like, half of them don't even involve the entire Empire. They're just regional conflicts.

Quote

A low rumble rippled through Sotorii’s body. He was surrounded on all sides by formless shapes, swiping at each other with sharp blades. A sudden wild, animal fear gripped him as two colossal figures clashed overhead, spraying gouts of blood. All around him was the din and clatter of battle, and a horrible rip and tear of fabric and flesh, and screams, and prayers, and the sounds of dying.

Just my two koku, but this sounds like Toshigoku, and it's unclear if this is "just a dream" or him dreaming about what actually happened. In either case, I feel this strongly suggests Toshigoku is involved somehow...but is it as a result of the patricide, or was it somehow influencing him even before that?

18 hours ago, Mangod said:

  1. The Clan War.
  2. The Second Day of Thunder.
  3. The War Against Shadow.
  4. The War of Spirits.
  5. The Dragon-Phoenix War.
  6. The Second Yasuki War.
  7. The War of the Rich Frog.
  8. The War of Fire and Thunder.
  9. The Winter of Red Snows.
  10. The Third Yasuki War.
  11. The War of Dark Fire.
  12. The Destroyer War.
  13. The War of the Twins.
  14. The Mantis-Crane War.
  15. The Heretic War.
  16. The Serpent War.
  17. The Spider Clan conquering the Empire.

Again, all of that happened within 77 years. And with the exception of some of the early stuff post-SDoT, there was almost no consequence from any of it. You need to take your time with big, apocalyptic events, otherwise they lose all gravitas they might have had.

I'm having so much trouble not having a rant at that.

AEG had some great gems of ideas in the middle of that, but then the execution was often so botched...

26 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

I'm having so much trouble not having a rant at that.

AEG had some great gems of ideas in the middle of that, but then the execution was often so botched...

Go ahead and rant; it'll feel good, and possibly provide some good ideas on what (not) to do.

22 hours ago, Mangod said:

This. So much this. This is also why, while I want them to do the Second Day of Thunder, I also want them to take their time and savor the event and its aftermath. Otherwise, I'm afraid we'll end up in the same situation as O5R where, in the span of 77 years, we had:

  1. The Clan War.
  2. The Second Day of Thunder.
  3. The War Against Shadow.
  4. The War of Spirits.
  5. The Dragon-Phoenix War.
  6. The Second Yasuki War.
  7. The War of the Rich Frog.
  8. The War of Fire and Thunder.
  9. The Winter of Red Snows.
  10. The Third Yasuki War.
  11. The War of Dark Fire.
  12. The Destroyer War.
  13. The War of the Twins.
  14. The Mantis-Crane War.
  15. The Heretic War.
  16. The Serpent War.
  17. The Spider Clan conquering the Empire.

Again, all of that happened within 77 years. And with the exception of some of the early stuff post-SDoT, there was almost no consequence from any of it. You need to take your time with big, apocalyptic events, otherwise they lose all gravitas they might have had.

You left out the Phoenix/Unicorn War (one of the most botched conflict rollouts in AEG's history of botched conflict rollouts), which hit after the Serpent War and concurrent with the (also omitted) utterly pointless succession struggle waged in the Colonies (which was the acme of "the samurai are killing each other because that's what samurai do"), right before Spiderpalooza...

4 hours ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

Just my two koku, but this sounds like Toshigoku, and it's unclear if this is "just a dream" or him dreaming about what actually happened. In either case, I feel this strongly suggests Toshigoku is involved somehow...but is it as a result of the patricide, or was it somehow influencing him even before that?

I'm thinking it's more him dreaming about Kuwanan's attack on his convoy.

On 8/19/2020 at 7:18 PM, Mangod said:

Go ahead and rant; it'll feel good, and possibly provide some good ideas on what (not) to do.

Maybe. I'm trying to be as positive as possible these days and I don't know how positive I will be when going over some of that... stuff.

Caveats I burned out hard out of L5R at the end of 2008 and the Race for the Throne (shudder) and never really returned to the community until FFG bought it, although by the end of 2010 4th Edition had allowed me to make some peace with the setting itself. That means my take on on some of those later events is based on diagonal readings of the fiction and/or heavily filtered by the RPG, which I'm really not interested in fully separate from the lore anyway.

- You missed it but we should really start with the Scorpion Clan Coup despite the fact that it started as a background event, and only got more detailed later, mostly in the RPG and in the Scorpion novel.

Unsurprisingly I like it as it was what I "grew up" with. It was laid out with nice epicl undertones and resonance. More importantly it carried consequences, with the Scorpion and the Akodo disbanded and the Hantei line on the brink of extinction. It's largely the inciting incident for the Clan War.

Zooming in on the detail you notice some flaws of course. Shoju's plan is far from brilliant on the operational and politcal side with "Ambition" being really needed to paper over that. I also feel that tying the SCC to the Otosan Uchi boxed set was ill-thought. The SCC was about wrecking OU and the adventure itself doesn't really try to link itself to the previously published adventures or to the box content.

-Clan War/SDoT. No point in separating the two. I recently aquired a few of the early Imperial Heralds I was missing and I'm amazed at how cohesive the storyline feels when it's clear, reading those early articles, that very few things had coalesced and were still being feeled out. How much was plotted, and how much is owed to John Wick's storytelling skills? Whatever it was, it fundamentally works.

Again though, you can find flaws. Tsuko, Kamoko and Hitomi I feel were done dirty at the altar of Kachiko.

On the RPG side I also don't feel it was as well exploited or explored as the pre-SCC/SCC era. There were less pure 2nd Edition books and adventures, ant the adventures that were published weren't really connected to the Clan War aside from Time of the Void that was ok-ish.

I may write more later. I have words about Hidden Emperor.

@Suzume Chikahisa I know you aren’t him because your avatar is the dragon clan and not the Spider, but I have to ask, Jude, is that you?

if you don’t know of whom am I talking about, you should definitely check the podcast Garbage of the Five Rings 😂

Edited by Diogo Salazar

I think he's dreaming of when he fell in the ravine, which is a few days after he ran off from Kuwanan. This would be during the storm in "A Night Storm Rages"

Kaori

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2020 at 3:57 PM, Mangod said:
  1. The Clan War.
  2. The Second Day of Thunder.
  3. The Spider Clan conquering the Empire.

There. I streamlined it!

On 8/19/2020 at 12:57 AM, Mangod said:

[...]

This. So much this. This is also why, while I want them to do the Second Day of Thunder, I also want them to take their time and savor the event and its aftermath. Otherwise, I'm afraid we'll end up in the same situation as O5R where, in the span of 77 years, we had:

  1. The Clan War.
  2. The Second Day of Thunder.
  3. The War Against Shadow.

[...]

The first tree "stages", going from the Clan War to the Second Day of Thunder and then beginning with the "Rise of the Shadow" works really well if it is done slowly and emphasizing how the Lying Darkness becomes a new cosmological threat due to the defeat of Fu Leng. But I would prefer it as something which will plague Rokugan for decades or centuries, not the next Big Evil Foe which will be defeated in the next tournament and replaced by another Big Evil Foe. I wouldn't mind FFG reworking the setting's mythology so the presence of Fu Leng becomes necessary to keep the Lying Darkness in check (a bit like having to make a pact with the Devil to defeat Cthulhu). To me, the setting stopped to make sense with the War of Spirits, which maybe it would have worked for me if it were done as something subtle representing how the Celestial Order adapts itself to the cosmological changes in the setting, but never as "Hey, guys, the Iron Chrysantemum is back and he doesn't likes a not-Hantei in the throne!"

Edited by Agrivar

See, I hated the Lying Darkness because it bled retcon from every pore.

It should never, ever be a "new" anything, and I vastly prefer what the new lore has already strongly hinted at- that the Nothing is not so much opposed to the element of Void as it is an aspect of it. Meaning it has always been there.

I do enjoy that the Phoenix worship the primordial chaos that's trying to unmake the world now. Kind of a Mangus the Red situation where they going to end up dooming everything because they don't actually understand where they're drawing their power from.

Still, I hope we get the Shadow Dragon at some point. He was kind of the only decent villain Old5R had by the end. Although could we not have the heavens just create a new Air Dragon to replace the old on, it kind of cheapens the loss.

Edited by shineyorkboy
11 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

I do enjoy that the Phoenix worship the primordial chaos that's trying to unmake the world now. Kind of a Mangus the Red situation where they going to end up dooming everything because they don't actually understand where they're drawing their power from.

Still, I hope we get the Shadow Dragon at some point. He was kind of the only decent villain Old5R had by the end. Although could we not have the heavens just create a new Air Dragon to replace the old on, it kind of cheapens the loss.

The Shadow Dragon was the result of a specific tournament win by a player wanting to corrupt an elemental dragon, IIRC, so seems quite unlikely to be replicated...

1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

I do enjoy that the Phoenix worship the primordial chaos that's trying to unmake the world now. Kind of a Mangus the Red situation where they going to end up dooming everything because they don't actually understand where they're drawing their power from.

The Celestial Realms sourcebook pretty much confirms this is not the case. The very, very few ishiken that exist (there's only dozens of students at any given time) are devoted to studying the Void and and trying to understand it, but it's not really described as something being worshipped. It's even one of their main duties to find and repair any holes, rips, warps, etc. in reality. It's also pretty strongly implied they actively remove all trace of those who attempt to abuse the power of the Void...so if there's any risk of dooming everything from reckless use of the Void/Nothing worship it's from one of these rogue elements the ishiken hunt down.

4 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The Shadow Dragon was the result of a specific tournament win by a player wanting to corrupt an elemental dragon, IIRC, so seems quite unlikely to be replicated...

But it's established canon now. And it's cool. Why change it?

3 hours ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

The Celestial Realms sourcebook pretty much confirms this is not the case. The very, very few ishiken that exist (there's only dozens of students at any given time) are devoted to studying the Void and and trying to understand it, but it's not really described as something being worshipped. It's even one of their main duties to find and repair any holes, rips, warps, etc. in reality. It's also pretty strongly implied they actively remove all trace of those who attempt to abuse the power of the Void...so if there's any risk of dooming everything from reckless use of the Void/Nothing worship it's from one of these rogue elements the ishiken hunt down.

All I know is all the Nothing had to do was give an old lady bad dreams to get the Phoenix to try and censure another Great Clan. And isn't it convenient that whoever the Nothing says is abusing its power the Phoenix eliminate for it? The point is the Phoenix are so arrogant and assured that they know best that they won't even consider the possibility that they're being manipulated by the thing they're supposedly controling.

Plus shugenja are priests so they should have some degree of spiritual reverence for the forces of nature they call upon.

Edited by shineyorkboy

Is that a tanto in your pocket or do you just hate Phoenix that much? 😏

14 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Plus shugenja are priests so they should have some degree of spiritual reverence for the forces of nature they call upon.

Now, now, I know your Kolat-loving self knows that's a bit of a stretch.

16 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

The point is the Phoenix are so arrogant and assured that they know best that they won't even consider the possibility that they're being manipulated by the thing they're supposedly controling.

I feel like the new setting is heading away from this in a very-very rapid pace.