Vader definitely needs a buff. As others have said speed one on a melee unit is a serious handicap, although I’d retain it as it fits the character.

I accept that any unit can be run and that it’s periodically possible to do great things with even the most underwhelming of units, but that doesn’t mean underwhelming units don’t deserve to be improved so that they’re more consistently useful (and played more often).

I think the aim should be to have every unit in the game seeing similar usage to other comparable units. I doubt it’s possible to ever truly achieve this but it’s worth having as an aim.

For buffing Vader, there’re a number of ways it could be done. Personally I’d like to see his unit card revised to better match the essence of the character. To do this I’d consider what the prominent traits of the character are and then incorporate them onto his card. I think his essential traits could be distilled down to: slow, extremely hard to kill, terrifying, and likes force choking people. With those things in mind you could revisit commander Vader’s unit card and retain speed 1, add surge to defence, add demoralize 2, and fold the effect of Force Choke onto his unit card as a free action. That would make an improved and thematic version of the character.

Alternatively you could just continue to drop his points cost or remove Relentless and give him a free attack action instead (to expand the options of his action economy and allow him to double move, Force Push enemies into melee with himself and then attack them - thereby extending his melee threat range) These aren’t as thematic but any buff would be welcome.

I'd love to see a force power upgrade that grants Jump 1. We see Dooku and Palpatine jump around in the prequels and even Vader can float himself around for short distances. It would allow the sith lords a bit more mobility but they would still feel slower due to their speed 1 (or dookus lack of charge).

I wonder when FFG is going to show anything

I skimmed this whole thread and love some of the ideas, but there's one I didn't see (which may be in here and I just missed it!). I would absolutely LOVE to see an expansion for a Sith Inquisitor and Purge Troopers.

Purge Troopers could be a cool answer to more Force Users being added to the game for other factions. Make them work similar to Shore Troopers but with the Jedi Hunter keyword so they can come into their own as a counter-commander force. You could give them a heavy weapon slot for either a suppressive blaster or sniper rifle that's immune to deflect or a trooper with the big power axe from Fallen Order. They'd probably be expensive, but could be an effective answer to a forward force users.

Rebels could get a squad of elite troopers from the Twilight Company (from the book!) or possibly some New Republic Troopers. NRTs could have better armor to compensate for the lack of Red Saves for the rebels.

9 minutes ago, evo454 said:

I skimmed this whole thread and love some of the ideas, but there's one I didn't see (which may be in here and I just missed it!). I would absolutely LOVE to see an expansion for a Sith Inquisitor and Purge Troopers.

Purge Troopers could be a cool answer to more Force Users being added to the game for other factions. Make them work similar to Shore Troopers but with the Jedi Hunter keyword so they can come into their own as a counter-commander force. You could give them a heavy weapon slot for either a suppressive blaster or sniper rifle that's immune to deflect or a trooper with the big power axe from Fallen Order. They'd probably be expensive, but could be an effective answer to a forward force users.

Rebels could get a squad of elite troopers from the Twilight Company (from the book!) or possibly some New Republic Troopers. NRTs could have better armor to compensate for the lack of Red Saves for the rebels.

Or rebels could have the heavy commando squad that Cara Dune (from the Mandalorian) was a part of

58 minutes ago, costi said:

I wonder when FFG is going to show anything

I am placing my guess in November around the time Anakin and Maul release. Or anytime between September 11th and then to hype up Rebel and Imperial players with a future release.

On 8/25/2020 at 1:02 PM, KommanderKeldoth said:

I'd love to see a force power upgrade that grants Jump 1. We see Dooku and Palpatine jump around in the prequels and even Vader can float himself around for short distances. It would allow the sith lords a bit more mobility but they would still feel slower due to their speed 1 (or dookus lack of charge).

That doesnt fix Vader or Palpatine though. Because it takes up a force power slot.

If speed 1 characters could take it without it using up a force power slot it might be okay.

19 hours ago, Khobai said:

That doesnt fix Vader or Palpatine though. Because it takes up a force power slot.

If speed 1 characters could take it without it using up a force power slot it might be okay.

Im the dude arguing that neither character needs a "fix". I just think it would be neat. Also palpatine usually has 1-2 empty force slots becuase all he really needs to function is Anger

1 hour ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Im the dude arguing that neither character needs a "fix". I just think it would be neat. Also palpatine usually has 1-2 empty force slots becuase all he really needs to function is Anger

Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, so for Papa Palps to make those Rebels suffer, it seems all he needs is Anger, so this all checks out.

3 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Im the dude arguing that neither character needs a "fix". I just think it would be neat. Also palpatine usually has 1-2 empty force slots becuase all he really needs to function is Anger

I feel like all the force users do not need to be identical. Vader has all red dice. So he doesn't get speed 2.

Dooku is fine because Maul and assajj are still coming out, and they need to be different. Maul will probably have tons of white dice.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

I feel like all the force users do not need to be identical. Vader has all red dice. So he doesn't get speed 2.

Dooku is fine because Maul and assajj are still coming out, and they need to be different. Maul will probably have tons of white dice.

Yeah Vader also wouldn't feel right at base speed 2. Playing him now feels just right, a slow unstoppable juggernaut. Darkness Descends solves the problem of him not getting up to the front lines fast enough. With that card I am routinely attacking with him on round 1.

On 8/29/2020 at 1:16 PM, buckero0 said:

I feel like all the force users do not need to be identical. Vader has all red dice. So he doesn't get speed 2.

Dooku is fine because Maul and assajj are still coming out, and they need to be different. Maul will probably have tons of white dice.

Huh? Dooku has all red dice so why does he get speed 2? I dont really understand that argument at all.

If speed 2 isnt okay on Vader its certainly not okay on Dooku either. And if speed 2 is okay on Dooku then its certainly fine for Vader to be speed 2 since Vader is WORSE than Dooku.

It seems to me like the new commanders like Dooku are being power creeped while older commanders like Vader desperately need rules updates to be on the same level.

On 8/27/2020 at 2:43 PM, KommanderKeldoth said:

Or rebels could have the heavy commando squad that Cara Dune (from the Mandalorian) was a part of

Pretty much what I thought they could have used for a while now. Could have red saves and decent mid to long range firepower. Would really give the faction something it has lacked.

5 hours ago, Khobai said:

Huh? Dooku has all red dice so why does he get speed 2? I dont really understand that argument at all.

If speed 2 isnt okay on Vader its certainly not okay on Dooku either. And if speed 2 is okay on Dooku then its certainly fine for Vader to be speed 2 since Vader is WORSE than Dooku.

It seems to me like the new commanders like Dooku are being power creeped while older commanders like Vader desperately need rules updates to be on the same level.

Dooku does not have Charge or Relentless (other than on his 1-Pip turn), so his threat range is shorter than Vader's. And Vader is definitely worse, but he's also cheaper so he should be.

I wouldn't say Dooku is better because of power creep. Commander Vader has never been particularly good. He has gotten two small buffs (a points drop and new command cards), but he needed a bigger buff than he got. Hopefully both versions gets something in the next RRG update (zB. I think Spur should be for the whole activation, not for a single move. This would help both units which currently have Spur, neither of which are considered particularly good).

42 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Dooku does not have Charge or Relentless (other than on his 1-Pip turn), so his threat range is shorter than Vader's. And Vader is definitely worse, but he's also cheaper so he should be.

I wouldn't say Dooku is better because of power creep. Commander Vader has never been particularly good. He has gotten two small buffs (a points drop and new command cards), but he needed a bigger buff than he got. Hopefully both versions gets something in the next RRG update (zB. I think Spur should be for the whole activation, not for a single move. This would help both units which currently have Spur, neither of which are considered particularly good).

Dooku's threat range is greater the turn he uses his command card though. Honestly you only need good threat range for one turn because after that youre in melee. Vader's whole problem is that he cant even get into melee in the first place. Because a good opponent will veto any objectives that favor Vader and then stay 10" away from Vader at all times. Vader is essentially forced to hide behind things, step out and saber throw, then hide again.

The other problem with Vader is he has to waste a force power slot on saber throw because he has no ranged attack. Dooku not only gets an extra force power slot from not having to take saber throw but he gets a command slot too. And he gets master of the force 2 so he can use both reflexes and choke or push every turn. Vader doesnt get enough upgrade slots because he has to patch himself with compulsory upgrades just to be mediocre.

Dooku is basically what Commander Vader always shouldve been.

And I dont see why operative Vader cant just be speed 2. operative luke is speed 2 and is completely better than operative vader. Even if you buff spur to last the entire activation its still worse than just being speed 2 in every way. And you cant say its because of relentless because Luke has charge. Spur even has the dewback completely screwed up too because its such a bad rule. Spur should just be removed because its such a bad keyword.

34 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Vader is essentially forced to hide behind things, step out and saber throw, then hide again.

Its clear to me you need more practice playing Vader. Using Darkness Descends its not hard to get him into melee pn round 2.

Was going to respond but Lochlan covered most of it. Dooku has less attack dice and no relentless.

Think like a designer. If all the armies have a character that matches or mirrors another character in another army, then eventually all the armies are the same. Variety is the spice of life. The characters in legion are supposed to be the spice in legion. You don't like Vader - pick a different army if it bothers you that bad. The game designers aren't going to change Vader anymore except to add more force user cards.

5 hours ago, buckero0 said:

Was going to respond but Lochlan covered most of it. Dooku has less attack dice and no relentless.

Think like a designer. If all the armies have a character that matches or mirrors another character in another army, then eventually all the armies are the same. Variety is the spice of life. The characters in legion are supposed to be the spice in legion. You don't like Vader - pick a different army if it bothers you that bad. The game designers aren't going to change Vader anymore except to add more force user cards.

Dooku gets 1 less attack die which is more than made up for by Dooku having surge to crit on both his melee AND ranged attack. Whereas Vader doesnt offensive surge at all. Again that argument doesnt hold up.

Also Dooku gets relentless from his command card for one turn. And he only needs relentless for one turn. Once youre in melee relentless becomes useless anyway because you cant move when youre in melee anyway. Dooku also gets master of the force 2 which gives him more actions than Vader in a lot of cases since he can throw out an extra choke or force push without having to give up the dodge token from reflexes. So somehow I dont feel bad about Dooku not having relentless because everything else he gets more than makes up for it. Compared to Dooku, Vader is just plain bad.

And the games designers should absolutely change Vader. They screwed up by making Vader bad so they should make good on it and fix him. The fact FFG is so obstinate about changing models and refuses to release new cards with updated rules is the whole problem. And its not just Vader its a lot of older models that desperately need updated rules. Its a bad policy that makes me not want to buy anymore FFG products because I know they wont support them with future updates. I wont buy another army because nothing will stop FFG from doing the same thing with that army that they did with imperials and rebels. Both those factions are underwhelming now compared to GAR and CIS.

25 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Dooku gets 1 less attack die which is more than made up for by Dooku having surge to crit on both his melee AND ranged attack. Whereas Vader doesnt offensive surge at all. Again that argument doesnt hold up.

Also Dooku gets relentless from his command card for one turn. And he only needs relentless for one turn. Once youre in melee relentless becomes useless anyway because you cant move when youre in melee anyway. Dooku also gets master of the force 2 which gives him more actions than Vader in a lot of cases since he can throw out an extra choke or force push without having to give up the dodge token from reflexes. So somehow I dont feel bad about Dooku not having relentless because everything else he gets more than makes up for it. Compared to Dooku, Vader is just plain bad.

And the games designers should absolutely change Vader. They screwed up by making Vader bad so they should make good on it and fix him. The fact FFG is so obstinate about changing models and refuses to release new cards with updated rules is the whole problem. And its not just Vader its a lot of older models that desperately need updated rules. Its a bad policy that makes me not want to buy anymore FFG products because I know they wont support them with future updates. I wont buy another army because nothing will stop FFG from doing the same thing with that army that they did with imperials and rebels.

Do Vader and Dooku fill the same roles on the battlefield? Nope. Trying to make Vader some zippy aggressive damage dealer means you're playing him wrong.

Quote

Do Vader and Dooku fill the same roles on the battlefield? Nope. Trying to make Vader some zippy aggressive damage dealer means you're playing him wrong.

Vader has no role on the battlefield. Hes just bad. Literally any other Imperial commander is better than he is. Vader struggles to find a role within his own faction.

Vader is not good at anything for all the reasons ive already elucidated on. Hes not good at melee because hes too slow. Hes not good at support because he has no command slots, gear slots, or supporting keywords. Hes okay at ranged but not nearly as good as Iden. So why would I ever use Commander Vader? He does nothing better than other Imperial commanders. Its depressing to see what Vader has been reduced to in this game. Hiding behind a building and stepping out to throw his lightsaber and then hiding again. And repeating that over and over because he cant do anything else.

Its also way too easy for opponents to veto the objectives Vader is good at too. Because hes so limited and one dimensional it makes him very easy to counter. Lowering his points cost wont fix whats wrong with him.

15 hours ago, Khobai said:

Huh? Dooku has all red dice so why does he get speed 2? I dont really understand that argument at all.

If speed 2 isnt okay on Vader its certainly not okay on Dooku either. And if speed 2 is okay on Dooku then its certainly fine for Vader to be speed 2 since Vader is WORSE than Dooku.

It seems to me like the new commanders like Dooku are being power creeped while older commanders like Vader desperately need rules updates to be on the same level.

Dooku gets speed 2 because he doesn't have relentless/charge like every other force user.

On 8/27/2020 at 2:43 PM, KommanderKeldoth said:

Or rebels could have the heavy commando squad that Cara Dune (from the Mandalorian) was a part of

That would be cool. They were called drop troopers so maby they get a rapid reinforcements style deployment all the time. They're supposed to be really good at it, so maby they even get an action on the turn they deploy. Seems like it would be fun.

5 hours ago, Olephantor said:

Dooku gets speed 2 because he doesn't have relentless/charge like every other force user.

Well, both Luke and Grevious have Speed 2 and Relentless/Charge, so it's not like that's a combo the designers are avoiding.

If Vader had Master of the Force 2, he would be fine. If he had 2 more wounds, he'd be fine. If you gave him Courage 4 he'd be fine. It's okay that he is how he is. He is literally one of the first designed units. He's a starter piece. If they made him any better, everyone would have quit the game before it got of the ground because the Core set would be broken.

The Imperials have plenty of other options, if you don't like Vader, play a different character. If you prefer Luke or Dooku, play a different army, this is how the game is designed, sorry you don't like it.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

If Vader had Master of the Force 2, he would be fine. If he had 2 more wounds, he'd be fine. If you gave him Courage 4 he'd be fine. It's okay that he is how he is. He is literally one of the first designed units. He's a starter piece. If they made him any better, everyone would have quit the game before it got of the ground because the Core set would be broken.

The Imperials have plenty of other options, if you don't like Vader, play a different character. If you prefer Luke or Dooku, play a different army, this is how the game is designed, sorry you don't like it.

You think changing him from - to 4 courage would be an upgrade?