No; this is simply their interpretation of “good samurai.” But in fact since they’ve utterly jettisoned the patriarchal structure there’s no reason to keep anything else either from real samurai culture. It’s just creating what the designers want to simulate. So to them, this creates “samurai drama,” which may be true on some levels, but also offers constraints and limitations. But the main issue for us is just lots of mechanics that unnecessarily complicate things and could simply be role-played. Even the stances and the rings, as clearly seen in the discussion in this thread, muck things up rather than streamline them. But that’s a design choice they’ve made as part of their vision so it is what it is.

5 minutes ago, Masakiyo said:

No; this is simply their interpretation of “good samurai.” But in fact since they’ve utterly jettisoned the patriarchal structure there’s no reason to keep anything else either from real samurai culture. It’s just creating what the designers want to simulate. So to them, this creates “samurai drama,” which may be true on some levels, but also offers constraints and limitations. But the main issue for us is just lots of mechanics that unnecessarily complicate things and could simply be role-played. Even the stances and the rings, as clearly seen in the discussion in this thread, muck things up rather than streamline them. But that’s a design choice they’ve made as part of their vision so it is what it is.

So you cant have the stoic stuff if you jettison the Patriarchal stuff that could push out some potential players and isnt needed?

No; the point is that claiming strife is more "true to samurai spirit" is total B.S. This is a PC-version of "samurai drama" so arguments that certain elements create a more authentic experience are merely subjective. So if you like them, that's fine. Personally, we don't care that much about that aspect of the game or the degree to which things that can easily be role-played are instead governed by dice rolls. And that's not just in this game but in a lot of the current games out there. But we've got a bunch of grognards. I still like enough of L5R to own the whole line and want to give it a chance, but there are some niggling design elements in our opinions.

I know they don't claim to be authentically Japanese, but again, if it were more true to real history or even traditional fiction there are plenty of opportunities for female PCs that would actually be more interesting than the heavy handed gender equality they try to shoehorn in here. You saying the "patriarchal stuff isn't needed" is again nothing more than an opinion. Some might greatly prefer it as being more representative of actual Japan. And they could do it with or without strife.

11 minutes ago, Masakiyo said:

No; the point is that claiming strife is more "true to samurai spirit" is total B.S. This is a PC-version of "samurai drama" so arguments that certain elements create a more authentic experience are merely subjective. So if you like them, that's fine. Personally, we don't care that much about that aspect of the game or the degree to which things that can easily be role-played are instead governed by dice rolls. And that's not just in this game but in a lot of the current games out there. But we've got a bunch of grognards. I still like enough of L5R to own the whole line and want to give it a chance, but there are some niggling design elements in our opinions.

I know they don't claim to be authentically Japanese, but again, if it were more true to real history or even traditional fiction there are plenty of opportunities for female PCs that would actually be more interesting than the heavy handed gender equality they try to shoehorn in here. You saying the "patriarchal stuff isn't needed" is again nothing more than an opinion. Some might greatly prefer it as being more representative of actual Japan. And they could do it with or without strife.

Sounds like the complaint is you dont want to have to make difficult choices and just want to be awesome all the time...
The Strife makes what dice you keep actually matter. In the old system you just kept the highest rolling dice. the only time you didnt was on damage for a duel to first blood

46 minutes ago, Masakiyo said:

I know they don't claim to be authentically Japanese, but again, if it were more true to real history or even traditional fiction there are plenty of opportunities for female PCs that would actually be more interesting than the heavy handed gender equality they try to shoehorn in here. You saying the "patriarchal stuff isn't needed" is again nothing more than an opinion. Some might greatly prefer it as being more representative of actual Japan. And they could do it with or without strife.

If you want to play a campaign in Japan you might as well get GURPS and go for it.

Literally anything can be played with GURPS.

Now, you might say that putting women as second tier citizens might make a game more historically authentic for a game in a setting similar to our historical medieval times. Which is true, but, on the other hand, it might drive off potential girls and women that would be interested in playing as a heroical samurai and instead if they want to, they have to be all Mulan (women pretending to be men). It can get tiresome pretty fast for women to have games like these.

Take a setting such as A Song of Ice and Fire. The only way a woman gets to play an “adventurer” is if they play copies of Asha Greyjoy or Arya Stark who in some ways have to go against expected gender tropes of the setting to have their say.

It is much better to not have expected gender tropes to begin with.

35 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

If you want to play a campaign in Japan you might as well get GURPS and go for it.

Literally anything can be played with GURPS.

Now, you might say that putting women as second tier citizens might make a game more historically authentic for a game in a setting similar to our historical medieval times. Which is true, but, on the other hand, it might drive off potential girls and women that would be interested in playing as a heroical samurai and instead if they want to, they have to be all Mulan (women pretending to be men). It can get tiresome pretty fast for women to have games like these.

Take a setting such as A Song of Ice and Fire. The only way a woman gets to play an “adventurer” is if they play copies of Asha Greyjoy or Arya Stark who in some ways have to go against expected gender tropes of the setting to have their say.

It is much better to not have expected gender tropes to begin with.

Not to mention some of the stuff in Old5R is pretty cringe worthy. Like REALLY BAD.

59 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Not to mention some of the stuff in Old5R is pretty cringe worthy. Like REALLY BAD.

Like Kachiko or Hida Great Cow?

I mean, AEG "fixed" the Utaku name and FFG later gender bent Hoturi to Hotaru, so why in the name of the Hantei didn't they change O-Ushi's name to anything?

14 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Like Kachiko or Hida Great Cow?

I mean, AEG "fixed" the Utaku name and FFG later gender bent Hoturi to Hotaru, so why in the name of the Hantei didn't they change O-Ushi's name to anything?

In all my years never heard of that until now... Wow...

Wait, seriously?

Dude, I am so sorry for breaking your bubble on that.

I thought that was common knowledge.

34 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Like Kachiko or Hida Great Cow?

I mean, AEG "fixed" the Utaku name and FFG later gender bent Hoturi to Hotaru, so why in the name of the Hantei didn't they change O-Ushi's name to anything?

Stuff Like Samuraiko which is terrible Japanese

On 9/4/2020 at 5:47 PM, Diogo Salazar said:

It is much better to not have expected gender tropes to begin with.

I think that's a safe, default approach, but I also think there's something to be said for talking to players and seeing what they're comfortable with. I had a player in a game I ran last year who wanted to play a sort of Mulan-type, a soldier who had hidden her gender. There were some fun, dramatic moments with how/when she chose to reveal her true identity.

Also, not that this isn't a solvable problem, but if the default of Rokugan isn't patriarchy, than the matriarchy of the Utaku, Matsu, and Moshi feels a little strange.

I thought only the Utaku and Moshi were true matriarchies while the Matsu were female prefered.

Yeah, I could see that interpretation. The core rulebook says, " Founded by Lady Matsu, one of the greatest of all samurai in the early Empire, they retain many matriarchal traditions in her honor, including several elite military units that are exclusively female. " Maybe that's lower on the matriarchy spectrum than the Moshi or Utaku? Hopefully we'll learn more in this supplement! But I think it's enough that it reads as female empowerment in a patriarchal world but more problematic in one that otherwise has gender equality.

Going full historical terms, I would say the majority of the rules of succession is agnatic-cognatic, meaning, if there’s a male heir, even if younger, he is preferred over a female one. That seems to be the rule at least for the Hantei line. Of course with the whole gender bender of Hoturi to Hotaru and keeping Kuwanan as younger brother this rule seems wrong at least for the Crane. So yeah, you are right, if there’s gender equality mostly around the Empire, exclusiveLy cognatic rules of succession seem not only strange in comparison but also “archaic” because if the rest of society sees men and women roughly the same, these families “saying” women are better than men seems odd.

19 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Going full historical terms, I would say the majority of the rules of succession is agnatic-cognatic, meaning, if there’s a male heir, even if younger, he is preferred over a female one. That seems to be the rule at least for the Hantei line. Of course with the whole gender bender of Hoturi to Hotaru and keeping Kuwanan as younger brother this rule seems wrong at least for the Crane. So yeah, you are right, if there’s gender equality mostly around the Empire, exclusiveLy cognatic rules of succession seem not only strange in comparison but also “archaic” because if the rest of society sees men and women roughly the same, these families “saying” women are better than men seems odd.

the core rules discuss some of this very early on.

1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Going full historical terms, I would say the majority of the rules of succession is agnatic-cognatic, meaning, if there’s a male heir, even if younger, he is preferred over a female one. That seems to be the rule at least for the Hantei line. Of course with the whole gender bender of Hoturi to Hotaru and keeping Kuwanan as younger brother this rule seems wrong at least for the Crane. So yeah, you are right, if there’s gender equality mostly around the Empire, exclusiveLy cognatic rules of succession seem not only strange in comparison but also “archaic” because if the rest of society sees men and women roughly the same, these families “saying” women are better than men seems odd.

Odd, why exactly?

We do live in times of mostly gender equality irl, that doesn't exactly precludes a lot of old-fashioned people to cling to the old "men are better suited to inherit the business" mentality

By the same logic, if some families have been traditionally matriarchal since literally the beginning of their clan/families (which is the case of the utaku and matsu from the beginning of the empire 12 centuries ago), it isn't far-fetched to see some of them cling to their old traditions

Especially given that rokugani society, based on the old china empire and old japan kingdom irl, is by design a society that is extremely slow to change its customs and clings to tradition

Odd in the sense that if mostly everybody believes that gender is not a factor in who is better or not to lead, having societies that believe that only men or women are fit to lead, makes them the odd ones.

On the other hand, the Ikoma seem to believe in patriarchal rule, to the point that the Unicorn Champion was supposed to give up her title and became a housewife if she were to marry an Ikoma of inferior status. Apparently it's traditional for them. Maybe it's just an ongoing representation of the Ikoma/Matsu disagreement?

Good point, forgot about that part. Yeah, in the end it’s mostly “assume every gender is equal unless your story needs it different”, which I guess is okay.

The empire at its foundation was a disparate group of tribes with very different traditions and cultures, which took a lot of time to homogenize, why wouldn't the more traditional ones want to preserve their culture.

The unicorn WANTED to keep their old rokugani culture ties during their exile and were led by a warrior woman kami, the matsu given that their founder had said no to a KAMI proposing to her. So the matriarchy preference isn't a surprise

T radition has its own, very, VERY powerful inertia. If it's always been done like it and still seem to work, lots of people don't see the point of changing it. heck even when it doesn't work some still refuse to change it

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing here; I think the point was just that choices about the general culture of the Empire impact how individual clan and family cultures are interpreted. If most armies are mostly or exclusively composed of men, the Battle Maidens or the Lion's Pride are useful evidence for the capabilities of women as warriors. If there aren't those kind of gender norms, the Battle Maidens and Lion's Pride feel, at the very least, unnecessary.

I mean, for sure the ashigaru are exclusively men, but you could have for sure samurai officers leading an army who are women.

And yes, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with anyone, we are just discussing that certain changes were made to make the game more inclusive but at the same time the old lore was kept without much change and then if you hold a magnifying glass to the details, they don’t make much sense.

7 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

if you hold a magnifying glass to the details, they don’t make much sense.

I'd say that things not making much sense when scrutinized is inevitable when you're dealing with any work of fiction that has as many writers as it does. Too many cooks and all that. As far as I know, doesn't a lot of the setting's inconsistencies come from the the story being influenced by the CCG tournaments? Like the Unicorn being full of Kolat because a player did well with a Unicorn-Kolat deck and so on?

And world building often fails because fantasy authors often aren't also economists or historians or anthropologists or linguists et cetera, et cetera. The principle that sci-fi writers have no sense of scale (WARNING: TV Tropes link) applies in these cases as well.

38 minutes ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing here; I think the point was just that choices about the general culture of the Empire impact how individual clan and family cultures are interpreted. If most armies are mostly or exclusively composed of men, the Battle Maidens or the Lion's Pride are useful evidence for the capabilities of women as warriors. If there aren't those kind of gender norms, the Battle Maidens and Lion's Pride feel, at the very least, unnecessary.

Again, I don't see how necessary is relevant in face of tradition saying that it's done so in rokugani society

It's a cultural thing, the necessity of its existence now isn't dictated because of current gender norms but because of the past traditions. It's how it was done back then, the tradition established back then dictates so, the families/clans built their identity upon it. The fact these turned out to be elite units merely reinforced the reason for their survival but isn't the reason for their original existence. Again, rokugani society is bound by traditions and resists change a lot, if it was good enough for your ancestors it's good enough for you, it took the unicorn's return smashing through all opposition for them to think that cavalry could be useful, 1000 years after the foundation of the empire (though to be fair, their different breed of horse did help that)

irl example: if necessity and efficiency were what decided everything, you wouldn't have the papal guard still lugging halberds in rainbow colored uniforms in the vatican, you would always see them with their much more subdued and efficient modern uniforms and firearms, and they'd be italian not swiss

11 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

I mean, for sure the ashigaru are exclusively men, but you could have for sure samurai officers leading an army who are women.

rules for peasants and samurai are different. so what works for female samurai and female peasants could be totally diferent and likely is. if you're gonna enlist a peasant which you'll barely train, you're more likely recruit the one with more apparent immediate strength, i.e. the male

Again, no one is disagreeing with that. No one is saying you can't mostly have gender equality and also have some exceptions. No one is saying the origins of the matriarchal units/family structures can't be the same in either interpretation of Rokugan.