1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

With the advent of social media and the general ease of creating and distributing videos, it's now much easier to generate an audience, especially with clickbait headlines and that the general populace can't or won't be bothered to do any due diligence, relying on (what is in today's world) the naïve belief that anyone that is reporting "news" has already researched and vetted the information and hasn't injected personal bias into whatever information the reporter is relaying.

I wonder how that aspect of social media would have played out if the Republicans hadn't basically gutted the American education system over the last couple of decades. Critical thinking, healthy skepticism, some grounding in history and social sciences - all these are skills that combine to let you quickly and accurately distinguish between news and entertainment. And with so much of the world's media being at least influenced, if not outright owned by US concerns, that insidious dismantling of the barrier between information and fun is felt everywhere.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I wonder how that aspect of social media would have played out if the Republicans hadn't basically gutted the American education system in the last couple decades. Critical thinking, healthy skepticism, some grounding in history and social sciences - all these are skills that combine to let you quickly and accurately distinguish between news and entertainment. And with so much of the world's media being at least influenced, if not outright owned by US concerns, that insidious dismantling of the barrier between information and fun is felt everywhere.

Wait, excuse me? Who's been in charge of the education system for decades? Who runs the teachers' unions? Who forced common core on the public school system? Who's been fighting against alternatives in education? Who runs the cities with the worst schools? What is the predominant party affiliation of teachers and school administrators, the ones actually responsible for teaching the students? Democrats. All of them.

10 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Wait, excuse me? Who's been in charge of the education system for decades? Who runs the teachers' unions? Who forced common core on the public school system? Who's been fighting against alternatives in education? Who runs the cities with the worst schools? What is the predominant party affiliation of teachers and school administrators, the ones actually responsible for teaching the students? Democrats. All of them.

The ones who have been bleeding education dry are Republicans. Starving government and public works to the point of collapse is Republican strategy 101. Can't teach if you don't have money, and the Republicans make sure schools don't get money.

Oh my, this has taken an interesting turn.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The ones who have been bleeding education dry are Republicans. Starving government and public works to the point of collapse is Republican strategy 101. Can't teach if you don't have money, and the Republicans make sure schools don't get money.

That is completely false. But, I'll entertain the thought:

Look at Baltimore, Maryland. Run by Democrats on the state and local level (and has been for decades), and have awful schools. And guess what else? They are significantly worse than the state average, but have about a 20% greater amount spent per student. How are you going to blame that on Republicans?

2 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Oh my, this has taken an interesting turn.

So what inside scoops by this clickbaiter turned out right? You never answered that question.

Just now, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That is completely false. But, I'll entertain the thought:

Look at Baltimore, Maryland. Run by Democrats on the state and local level (and has been for decades), and have awful schools. And guess what else? They are significantly worse than the state average, but have about a 20% greater amount spent per student. How are you going to blame that on Republicans?

Did the national education budget increase or decrease under the Trump administration?

14 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Did the national education budget increase or decrease under the Trump administration?

Doesn't matter. What matters is the state and local level, and amount spent means very little compared to how the amount is spent.

And it actually averages out to about the spending during Obama's tenure, no major change.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Doesn't matter.

LOL. Yeah, we're done here.

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

LOL. Yeah, we're done here.

I'm glad we finally agree...

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

I wonder how that aspect of social media would have played out if the Republicans hadn't basically gutted the American education system over the last couple of decades. Critical thinking, healthy skepticism, some grounding in history and social sciences - all these are skills that combine to let you quickly and accurately distinguish between news and entertainment. And with so much of the world's media being at least influenced, if not outright owned by US concerns, that insidious dismantling of the barrier between information and fun is felt everywhere.

gutted? based on what metric? last I check the amount spent on education has been steadily increased. the fact none of the money makes it to the classroom has nothing to do with republicans.

56 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That is completely false. But, I'll entertain the thought:

Look at Baltimore, Maryland. Run by Democrats on the state and local level (and has been for decades), and have awful schools. And guess what else? They are significantly worse than the state average, but have about a 20% greater amount spent per student. How are you going to blame that on Republicans?

One example of a Democrat-run state (although it's not currently Democrat-run) having a terrible education system is not evidence of Republicans not aiming for terrible education systemically as part of their overal platform.

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

not evidence of Republicans not aiming for terrible education systemically as part of their overal platform.

Alright, look. There's a saying that goes "The right thinks the left is misguided, the left thinks the right is evil." And another one that goes "The right understands the left, the left doesn't understand the right." I think that you need to reexamine why you think Republicans and conservatives believe what they believe and promote the policies they promote. I'm not even asking you to change your mind about the policies, just to think through why the other side believes what they believe and the motivations behind those beliefs.

What you are saying there, whether you realize it or not (and I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that it was poorly phrased), is that Republicans don't care about their children. That is incredibly insulting and wrong. Especially because Republicans and conservatives have significantly higher birthrates than Democrats. Why do we promote school choice? Because we care deeply about our kids' educations and believe that that is the best way to ensure that they get a good education. I know many conservative parents who have sacrificed greatly to ensure that their kids get a good education.

I understand that you want a good education system. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I simply think you are simply mistaken about the best way of going about that. You seem to think that I don't want a good education system, that I don't want my kids, or my friends' kids, or your kids to get a good education. That is extremely wrong.

By way of example, I believe that Marxism and its offshoots actually are evil ideologies. I do not think that most of its promoters and supporters are evil, I think they are simply misguided through their good intentions into a bad ideology. (Not calling you a Marxist, I don't know nearly enough about you, this is just an example)

Most people, by far, on both sides of the aisle have political ideologies and beliefs guided by good intentions. There are people on the fringes of both parties who are not guided by good intentions, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If you say what your end goal is, not the means to that end, but the actual end goal, I am sure we will agree the significant majority of the time. We simply differ about how to get there, and sometimes about what that end goal would look like.

There is another saying, "The road to [heck] is paved with good intentions." Good intentions are not the be all and end all. We are certainly free to think that another's good intentions leads them down the wrong path, but it is wrong to assume that someone taking the wrong path is intent on reaching the bad destination we believe we see at the end (and we could be wrong). Further, impugning their motives won't help convince them, as they know what their motives are.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Alright, look. There's a saying that goes "The right thinks the left is misguided, the left thinks the right is evil." And another one that goes "The right understands the left, the left doesn't understand the right." I think that you need to reexamine why you think Republicans and conservatives believe what they believe and promote the policies they promote. I'm not even asking you to change your mind about the policies, just to think through why the other side believes what they believe and the motivations behind those beliefs.

What you are saying there, whether you realize it or not (and I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that it was poorly phrased), is that Republicans don't care about their children. That is incredibly insulting and wrong. Especially because Republicans and conservatives have significantly higher birthrates than Democrats. Why do we promote school choice? Because we care deeply about our kids' educations and believe that that is the best way to ensure that they get a good education. I know many conservative parents who have sacrificed greatly to ensure that their kids get a good education.

I understand that you want a good education system. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I simply think you are simply mistaken about the best way of going about that. You seem to think that I don't want a good education system, that I don't want my kids, or my friends' kids, or your kids to get a good education. That is extremely wrong.

By way of example, I believe that Marxism and its offshoots actually are evil ideologies. I do not think that most of its promoters and supporters are evil, I think they are simply misguided through their good intentions into a bad ideology. (Not calling you a Marxist, I don't know nearly enough about you, this is just an example)

Most people, by far, on both sides of the aisle have political ideologies and beliefs guided by good intentions. There are people on the fringes of both parties who are not guided by good intentions, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If you say what your end goal is, not the means to that end, but the actual end goal, I am sure we will agree the significant majority of the time. We simply differ about how to get there, and sometimes about what that end goal would look like.

There is another saying, "The road to [heck] is paved with good intentions." Good intentions are not the be all and end all. We are certainly free to think that another's good intentions leads them down the wrong path, but it is wrong to assume that someone taking the wrong path is intent on reaching the bad destination we believe we see at the end (and we could be wrong). Further, impugning their motives won't help convince them, as they know what their motives are.

Well said.

4 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

One example of a Democrat-run state (although it's not currently Democrat-run) having a terrible education system is not evidence of Republicans not aiming for terrible education systemically as part of their overal platform.

OK. How bout California? I know for a fact it is a terrible education system. Because I went to schools in it. They also spend a significant amount of money per student. But the odd thing is most of the money never gets out of the district head quarters and has been run for decades by democrats from the top all the way down to the actual school its self. How is that the republican's fault? And Im not even republican and I know the Republican's are aiming for a better education system. They just dont see how spending more money on a system that doesnt produce good results is a solution.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

There's a saying that goes "The right thinks the left is misguided, the left thinks the right is evil." And another one that goes "The right understands the left, the left doesn't understand the right."

Aren't those sayings as misguided and divisive as they claim the left to be? For all the call to understand the right's motivation to privatize schooling, why not also strive to understand how a robust, well administered public school system can be beneficial for everyone.

Anyway, in before lock! 😀

5 minutes ago, rogue_09 said:

... in before lock! 😀

Oh, child. You think this forum is actively modded?

You haven't been here long have you.

5 minutes ago, rogue_09 said:

Aren't those sayings as misguided and divisive as they claim the left to be? For all the call to understand the right's motivation to privatize schooling, why not also strive to understand how a robust, well administered public school system can be beneficial for everyone.

Are they not accurate? At the very least, they seem to be accurate in this situation.

And I do understand that a good public school system is beneficial for everyone. The problem is that it is not good, and just throwing more money at it won't change that. There are a multitude of reasons for why that is, but having a private market for schooling is a significant improvement over a one-size-fits-all approach regardless of improving the public school system, and many believe it will indirectly improve the public school system as they now need to compete themselves in order to retain students and bring in the funding they want. When you are the only game in town, you are complacent. When there is nothing to threaten you, there is no reason to improve.

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Are they not accurate?

They're not, no. Unless you rely on overgeneralization and oversimplification of complex issues.

9 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The problem is that it is not good, and just throwing more money at it won't change that.

I had an excellent public education. "Just throwing money at it" is another oversimplification. Obviously many school systems need improvement but defunding won't help anything.

9 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

I guess I'll see it someday whenever it's available on a streaming service I follow. I'm planning to get Disney + anyway whenever it gets around to Belgium.

I've warmed to it. There's still a lot of choices that I don't like at all, find it contradictory not just to TLJ but to TFA and even itself at times, and I still think it's the weakest of the sequels by far. But, I don't mind watching it as much anymore. I even had it running today as background noise while I was working.

Then I learned that Netflix added Batman: Mask of the Phantasm today, and as soon as TRoS was done, it was over to that, for the absolute best Batman movie to ever grace the big screen.

3 hours ago, rogue_09 said:

They're not, no. Unless you rely on overgeneralization and oversimplification of complex issues.

I had an excellent public education. "Just throwing money at it" is another oversimplification. Obviously many school systems need improvement but defunding won't help anything.

Then you can explain the point of view?

14 hours ago, rogue_09 said:

They're not, no. Unless you rely on overgeneralization and oversimplification of complex issues.

There are exceptions, of course, but I have seen and heard so much that fundamentally misunderstands the right. Saying Republicans want bad schools is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation, and pretty much a suggestion of being bad people, though evil may be a step too far. Calling Republicans racist for wanting lower taxes, smaller government, school choice, etc. are all fundamental misunderstandings, and accusations of evil. This is why I use those phrases. There are plenty of exceptions, I am sure, but in general it seems to hold true. I do not see the same thing on the right. There are exceptions to that too, but we're talking in broad strokes here, as we always are when we say "Republicans," "Democrats," "the right," or "the left."

14 hours ago, rogue_09 said:

I had an excellent public education. "Just throwing money at it" is another oversimplification. Obviously many school systems need improvement but defunding won't help anything.

Good for you. There are plenty of good schools, but there are way too many bad schools, especially in the areas that can least afford to have bad schools. And I'm not talking about defunding, I'm saying the money should follow the child. Of the money spent on a school child in a public school each year, some of that is the operating cost for the school that is simply dispersed among the students, and then there is the money that is spent on that student individually.

What I'm talking about is giving the student the freedom to go to a better school by giving the parents a voucher for all or part of the public funding set aside for the child's education. Some may get scholarships, but many would only receive part and would be paid for at least in part by the parents. The public school gets less money, but it also gets less students. When it gets less students, it has less of a workload and some of the basic operating costs go down. At the same time, the quality of education may go up as the ratio of children to teachers is reduced.

There is a lot more to the topic of how to improve the public school system, and a lot of that is about reform, not funding or defunding. The above was just about school choice.

Well, I guess you have it all figured out. Well done.

24 minutes ago, rogue_09 said:

Well, I guess you have it all figured out. Well done.

This is a response that confirms that you do not understand republicans.

23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

This is a response that confirms that you do not understand republicans.

Feel free to think that if you need to.

School funding is a complex issue that arguing on the internet will not solve. And really, I lost the forest for the trees. I'm not really interested in a socioeconomic debate on a game forum.

What I did take offense to was the blanket statement that "anyone who doesn't share my views thinks I'm an evil racist and they must engage with me, but I have to put no effort into engaging back because they're just misguided *pat*pat*"

Was I blase in my response? Definitely, but I certainly understand the frustrations we all have trying to create the best world for ourselves and others. I'm not writing off anyone's opinions, just no longer engaging with an unhelpful conversation.