Hi everyone, I just have a couple of questions that I haven't been able to find answers for, so I apologize if I didn't do enough research.

Potential spoilers coming up if you haven't watched Clone Wars or Rebels .

Anyway, first question. In the Rebels show, in Kanan's final episode, we see him using the force to keep fire at bay, to literally stop a fuel tank from exploding long enough to get everyone else to safety. What power do you think he's using here? Move, Protect, or something else?

Second question. Darth Maul in the last season of Clone Wars before his epic saber duel with Ahsoka, was shot at multiple times by Bo-Katan but was able to use the force to literally move the shots away. Would this be another instance of Move or Protect, or something else?

Thanks in advance everyone.

13 minutes ago, Ebocco said:

Hi everyone, I just have a couple of questions that I haven't been able to find answers for, so I apologize if I didn't do enough research. Potential spoilers coming up if you haven't watched Clone Wars or Rebels.

Anyway, first question. In the Rebels show, in Kanan's final episode, we see him using the force to keep fire at bay, to literally stop a fuel tank from exploding long enough to get everyone else to safety. What power do you think he's using here? Move, Protect, or something else?

Second question. Darth Maul in the last season of Clone Wars before his epic saber duel with Ahsoka, was shot at multiple times by Bo-Katan but was able to use the force to literally move the shots away. Would this be another instance of Move or Protect, or something else?

Thanks in advance everyone.

With Maul, probably Protect. Not sure about holding the blast back or instances of holding water back, probably Move there.

So here's the thing about this system, there are often numerous ways to achieve any given narrative result you see "on screen" through the mechanics.

1 hour ago, Ebocco said:

using the force to keep fire at bay, to literally stop a fuel tank from exploding long enough to get everyone else to safety. What power do you think he's using here?

Mechanically, this could be anything from the GM failing to get enough Advantage to trigger Blast on whatever check they used to create the fire/explosion, to the fleeing PCs getting enough Advantage on a check to gain a free Maneuver, to Protect (the most likely/"literal" Power translation, IMO) - though Alter could also work (with the Control upgrade that makes terrain impassable, which in my mind would apply to "attacks"/damage as well as characters) or even something like Foresee upgraded to give Allies Defense, to a Talent like "Time To Go" or something else that gives your Allies a free Maneuver.

I really can't see how Move could be applied, but YMMV.

1 hour ago, Ebocco said:

Darth Maul ... was able to use the force to literally move the shots away.

Could be narrative flavoring on a simple missed attack due to Defense die or Difficulty Upgrades gained through the Force, or a Force Talent (Sense Advantage), could be Reflect from Cortosis Gauntlets, the most likely Force Power seems again like Protect. Can't be Move, because to my knowledge there's 1. no way to use the Power as an OoTI, and 2. a blaster bolt of pure-energy does not qualify in my mind as an object. It doesn't have a material presence, it's just energy.

Bottom line, it's best not to try to do what you're trying to do. Because there is most often no single right answer.

2 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Bottom line, it's best not to try to do what you're trying to do. Because there is most often no single right answer.

Fair points, and thank you for the response. Although, I could have made this more clear, but I'm not necessarily looking for one concrete answer, but more of how each person giving a reply would rule these instances in the game. To me, Kanan seemed to be using Move to push the fire back (which is how I might attempt to narrate my use of Move in this instance) or contain the blast as it appeared that the fire was actually being pushed back at a constant rate, which could definitely be seen as something else by others, which is why I ask. As for Maul, the only reason I even entertained the use of Move was because of how the blaster bolts were dispersed. So generally, a refined version of my questions are, would you, as a gm, allow an interpretation of any force power at our disposal to mirror those specific instances from the canon sources? Which would make the most sense in these instances to you? It's obvious in many cases that there is considerable overlap when it comes to using force powers, but in these instances I'm looking for a slight refinement of theory and personal opinions. Thanks again.

Right. I've never seen the Kanan/fire scene, so it's hard for me to speak to that specific circumstance/narrative.

But I would not allow a PC to mechanically target flames with the Move power. They could target the source/fuel for the flames, and move that away. Is that what he does?

I would not allow them to target the heat/energy/flames themselves - for instance if the flames are propagating through a gas/the air. That's a damage ablation effect IMO. Or, a dodge/movement affect on the characters avoiding it. Move can't ablate damage.

Same with containing exploding barrels, what's the mechanical lead-in from the Power? The only one I can see would be having the "fine manipulation" upgrade and the check and narrative would be analogous to using their Force-hands to hold the exploding barrel together. And that's not a check that has a possibility of success in my book. You can't overcome the force of an explosion with your hands, so you can't use the Force as an analogue for your hands to achieve that. So, you don't get to roll for it.

So, it's Protect, or Alter, IMO.

26 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Right. I've never seen the Kanan/fire scene, so it's hard for me to speak to that specific circumstance/narrative.

For clarity, here's the clip. After watching it again, I'm not so convinced that it can be Move, but it's still slightly ambiguous.

24 minutes ago, Ebocco said:

For clarity, here's the clip. After watching it again, I'm not so convinced that it can be Move, but it's still slightly ambiguous.

Yea, pretty much exactly what I thought it would be (just larger scale).

No way is that Move. There's no way to apply the mechanics of Move to arrive at that narrative. He's not moving anything. He's not targeting any object. It's not Move.

I don't think it's the use of a Power, frankly. The GM and Player decided together that this would be how the PC should end, the Player flipped a Destiny, maybe 2, to dictate the scene, and used the Move Power only to evacuate his Ally and their ship.

If it MUST be a Power, Alter looks like by far the best mechanical explanation there to me. Impassable terrain in the area for a round. Done.

Or, he's ablating damage: Protect. Sustained using the side-bar rules about committing Force die to sustain Powers that can't "normally" be sustained.

And then, again, Move to move the twilek and ultimately the ship.

Definitely not Move.

Game-balance alone is enough of a reason to say, "Move cannot do that." the power is flexible and strong enough already, adding damage ablation/avoidance to it's wide range of uses is just a bad idea.

Yeah, that there was no game mechanical power; that was a character moment of self-sacrifice, possibly coupled with a spent Destiny Point or Triumph at the very least. Making this a repeatable game mechanics would ruin the game. Cool stuff, though.

Thanks for the replies. It's good to get other opinions on it for sure. After watching it again, I do agree with the assessment that it can't be move. Definitely a cool way to die.

Yeah, I've changed my mind about Move for that scene. @emsquared , what about the scene in the Clone Wars Mon Cal episode where Anakin and Fisto use the force to create a bubble underwater, or Vader holding back the water in Fallen Order? I guess I was thinking it's them "moving" the water out of the way, but I can see how that doesn't make a ton of sense.

32 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

or Vader holding back the water in Fallen Order? I guess I was thinking it's them "moving" the water out of the way, but I can see how that doesn't make a ton of sense.

From that Vader scene, I honestly think that Move could work. It looked like he was using the force to push the water back as well as he could in the situation, which seemed to be hard for him, so I imagine it would be nearly impossible for some. It didn't appear to my eyes that he was using the force as a barrier between him and the water, it looked like he was moving the water, but I might be remembering incorrectly.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

what about the scene in the Clone Wars Mon Cal episode where Anakin and Fisto use the force to create a bubble underwater

How big is the bubble? This could just be a creative use of Conjure's base power - using it to create a simple, low-tech tool. A pocket of air around my head/mouth.

Or is it like, a Glenda the Good Witch-style, "let's ride in a person-sized bubble"? That gets problematic, for me...

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Vader holding back the water in Fallen Order

Had to google this... again I definitely like an upgraded Alter for it. Move seems feasible to me too, particularly because in this circumstance it's a very discretely defined volume of water filling that tunnel.

And if he's moving it away from himself at the same rate that is flowing in - thereby resulting in a stasis - you could conceivably arguing that he's moving it. But what about the volume behind the "plug"? That's not being affected by the power, shouldn't it just flow through? Or be exceed any Sil limit?

I feel like I'd have to think through the peripheral ramifications. Can you "Moses" a flowing river of lava? What's the target in such a case? What's the singular object? Can you just target a "Silhouette's-worth" of volume from a whole? I don't like it on it's face, because even though it's not broken in most circumstances, I feel like it could be breakable in some.

The premise touches on and creates lots of impactful precedent. If you can do a volume of liquid, why can't you do a volume of gas? If the PC was inside a collapsing building, I'd certainly let them grab just a "Silhouette's-worth" of chunks out of a much larger aggregate, to save themselves or someone else beneath it. So why not liquid or gas?

But I'll never be able to use poison-gas on someone with Move now.

Can they carry a pocket of air into vacuum with themselves?

It gets weird. I don't like Move for it. Too expansive, too powerful.

Maybe for a Triumph or Destiny? Maybe just if it's epic and right for the moment?

Lot to consider.

43 minutes ago, emsquared said:

How big is the bubble? This could just be a creative use of Conjure's base power - using it to create a simple, low-tech tool. A pocket of air around my head/mouth.

A bubble only slightly larger than her suit's helmet.

Hmm... I do worry for those who haven't seen this series and intend to. Especially now that there's a video. any chance on putting a spoiler warning in the title or in the OP?

45 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

Hmm... I do worry for those who haven't seen this series and intend to. Especially now that there's a video. any chance on putting a spoiler warning in the title or in the OP?

The episode is over 2 1/2 years old, but yes, I agree. Perhaps you could put it behind a spoiler curtain, @Ebocco ? Alternatively, add a "SW:Rebels Spoilers" in the topic name?

3 hours ago, angelman2 said:

The episode is over 2 1/2 years old, but yes, I agree. Perhaps you could put it behind a spoiler curtain, @Ebocco ? Alternatively, add a "SW:Rebels Spoilers" in the topic name?

Sure. I did already put a spoiler warning in my first or second sentence, but I'll make it more explicit.