Situation: I have a Gonzati Cruisers with the Vector title and Admiral Chiraneau onboard. It resolves a squadron command to activate Boba Fett who engaged with Ketsu Onyo. What does his final movement speed end up being?

Chiraneau resets it to 2, Vector adds 1 (maximum 5) and Ketsu subtracts 2 (minimum 1). I suppose the real question is whether or not I can choose to apply Ketsu's modifier first (so it floors out at 1) before Vector's modifier.

Thanks!

Chiraneau changes the "printed speed" of the squadron, so that definitely comes first.

We have a clarification for Chiraneau:

Quote

If a ship has Corruptor and Admiral Chiraneau equipped, engaged squadrons with BOMBER that it activates have a speed of “3.”

So by analogy, Vector and Ketsu both work with Chiraneau (as they changed the "speed" not the "printed speed").

There doesn't seem to be an absolute rule on the order to apply Vector (or Corrupter, or AFFM!) and Ketsu. This would also apply to anything with a printed speed of 2 normally near Ketsu (provided there is also Intel nearby).

So probably best to go with the default rule of First Player effects happen first.

Under that, if you are the First Player, your Boba Fett starts at printed speed 2, your Vector (as first player) changes the speed up to 3, then the second player's Ketsu reduces that to 1. If you are second player, your Boba Fett starts at printed speed 2, the first player's Ketsu reduces its speed to 1, your Vector increases it to 2.

See Karneck's reply below for another, perfectly reasonable, more authoritative answer.

But maybe talk to your opponent and friendly TO beforehand, to clarify.

Oooo this is a good question. Give me some time to dwell on it / discuss and I'll come back with a response

As mentioned by Grumbleduke " default rule of First Player effects happen first." is correct.

There is email response to that question Dras has that he will try and find.

Edit: As mentioned, this is a tricky one to get order of operations nailed down and will require some additional discussion. In the end, its not a big one I'd expect to come across often, but nice to have something to chew on for awhile.

Edit 2: After some more internal discussions. The best we can determine order of operations is as follows.

Ketsu's ability is always "on" no matter if 1st or 2nd player. Thus the reduction of speed happens before any squadrons are activated.

Ketsu reduces whatever the "base" speed of that squadron is. (Or "Printed" if using Chiraneau").

After that reduction, any speed enhancing card effects would then take place. Such as Vector, Corrupter and All Fighters Follow Me, Independence, etc.

So in this example, Boba Fett would have speed 3 (or 2 with Chiraneua) reduced to speed 1 by Ketsu. Then if Vector and AFFM are active card effects on Boba Fett, would change speed from 1 back up to 3.

It seems weird to me that anything could “change” any printed value on anything. I think that’s sort of the point of having a printed value in the first place.

Chiraneau doesn’t actually “change” the printed value; he instructs you to “treat the printed value as 2.”

This might seem overly pedantic, and the effect is (in this case) the same, but I think it’s an important distinction to keep in mind. Printed Values are Printed Values. They never change, though they may be “treated as if” they read differently.

56 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Chiraneau doesn’t actually “change” the printed value; he instructs you to “treat the printed value as 2.”

When you choose to resolve Chiraneau's card effect, you are in fact, choosing to treat that squadrons speed as a "printed speed of 2". It does change the printed speed of that squadron, whatever it may be, to "2" for the duration of that squadrons activation.

If you choose not to resolve Chiraneau, the squadrons printed speed remains the same.

That is the whole point of Chiraneaus card.

2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

It seems weird to me that anything could “change” any printed value on anything. I think that’s sort of the point of having a printed value in the first place.

Chiraneau doesn’t actually “change” the printed value; he instructs you to “treat the printed value as 2.”

This might seem overly pedantic, and the effect is (in this case) the same, but I think it’s an important distinction to keep in mind. Printed Values are Printed Values. They never change, though they may be “treated as if” they read differently.

No, it's a fair observation.

On the surface, it will never matter, because if you ever do anything differently with that knowledge, by definition you aren't treating the value the way you would a printed value.

But... there's a you in Chiraneau, for the ship activating squadrons.

And then presumably the player using Chiraneau treats those squadrons as having a printed speed 2 value.

But what if a different upgrade card came out, used by another player, that affected their opponent's speed 2 squadrons during their activation?

Would Chiraneau's opponent abide by his text? I don't think so.

The precedent being Ciena Ree, who says an attack "is treated as obstructed," passively affecting everyone. While IG-88B reads "treat those attacks as obstructed."

There's a difference in who the cards are telling to listen.

So it's a meaningful distinction, and I think I win at pedantry now.

9 hours ago, Karneck said:

When you choose to resolve Chiraneau's card effect, you are in fact, choosing to treat that squadrons speed as a "printed speed of 2". It does change the printed speed of that squadron, whatever it may be, to "2" for the duration of that squadrons activation.

If you choose not to resolve Chiraneau, the squadrons printed speed remains the same.

That is the whole point of Chiraneaus card.

Practically speaking, it doesn’t make a difference at this point, but “treating X as if it were Y” and “changing X to Y” are absolutely NOT the same thing, and it may make a difference in the future.

I think what’s setting off alarm bells for me is that I have no problem with treating printed values differently, but once you start “changing printed values,” I think it does bad things for the rules... even if we can’t currently think of a situation where that matters.

Thanks for the responses. To Karneck's point, the fact that Ketsu's ability is "always on" and doesn't have a specific timing trigger is what makes the situation somewhat ambiguous, and ultimately decided to resolve the interaction in the same way (Ketsu's always on ability is fundamentally already in effect before Vector's ability triggers, so the speed would floor out at one and then be increased at activation).