Just now, AtoMaki said:This was my first idea too when reading The Cornered Lion, but it doesn't explain why Salty!Toturi was already a thing during the resurrection scene proper.
Also, Toturi being the vessel of Fu Leng would be a twist of absolutely EPIC proportions. Like, there is no way anyone could beat this change. I kinda hope that this is a thing now.
Maybe, but really I'm seeing some classic signs of depression in his post resurrection portrayal.
26 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:Maybe, but really I'm seeing some classic signs of depression in his post resurrection portrayal.
Well, he bounced back from Arasou's tragic death where he had a lot more personal involvement in something like a paragraph. After Tsuko smeared his perceived "failure" into his face, no less. And, of course, his strange behavior starts right during the resurrection, because the soul Kaede finds is already the salty confrontational Toturi.
1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:Well, he bounced back from Arasou's tragic death where he had a lot more personal involvement in something like a paragraph. After Tsuko smeared his perceived "failure" into his face, no less. And, of course, his strange behavior starts right during the resurrection, because the soul Kaede finds is already the salty confrontational Toturi.
Yeah but we were seeing signs of mopey Toturi earlier then that, its just that he had distractions to keep him busy (new wife, settling into the role of Emerald Champion) where as now all we have is Toturi with too much time to brood. Circumstances are very different as well as there is a difference between my brother went against my advise and died, versus I was murdered and as I was entering the gateway to the afterlife my wife used a dangerous magic to haul my *** back to the land of the living (against my wishes) and now I'm stuck in a world where I have to confront my own failures to recognize a "plot" against the Emperor and myself and my only real ally to investigate it is the guy whose very obviously eyeing my wife and seems to take every opportunity to egg me with how much better he is at this investigation then I am (even if not true the minor inferiority complex that we've always seen Toturi have from comparing himself to his brother would easily multiply this in his own mind). Don't really need I'm possessed by the devil to explain what could very easily be normal human failings.
4 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:Yeah but we were seeing signs of mopey Toturi earlier then that, its just that he had distractions to keep him busy (new wife, settling into the role of Emerald Champion) where as now all we have is Toturi with too much time to brood.
Isn't there so much going on for Toturi that FFG could make a query out of it?
And I dunno, but Toturi in the previous stories seemed to be a lot more circumspect then start projecting his failings into a fairly run-to-the-mill crisis he himself expected to happen. Like, him being super-thoughtful and not being caught up in nonsensical ideas was a major point of his character, and it was clearly shown in every story where he encountered a hurdle. I'm not even sure what was his deal with wanting to stay dead and why he was so angry at his Magic Wife trying to do something useful for a change.
His 'spirit' wanted to stay dead because he didn't want Kaede to sacrifice herself or their child for him. And his fault, at least in the eyes of everyone else, is that he is not extremely decisive. He wants everyone to win. He wants to keep the peace. To come back is to confront his own failure, to be forced into a path that will inevitably lead to war. Even if he does not consciously know that, his spirit did. These are human failings, very in line with Toturi.
I don't see Toturi's behavior afterwards as at all strange either. He was raised to be Lion Clan Kuge. You don't even think that sneaking around is appropriate for Lion Clan Kuge. You don't think of not acting in the face of dishonor, or order someone else to. Command is as natural as breathing. Everyone outside of your own family respects or fears you. To suddenly find yourself on the outside, with his most intimate relationships challenge, with the status of a nobody....He just didn't take to it instantly. It's been 3 weeks since he first met with Ishikawa. That's all.
56 minutes ago, KakitaKaori said:He was raised to be Lion Clan Kuge. You don't even think that sneaking around is appropriate for Lion Clan Kuge. You don't think of not acting in the face of dishonor, or order someone else to. Command is as natural as breathing. Everyone outside of your own family respects or fears you.
That's Arasou. Toturi was already outside of this, that's another major point of his character.
1 hour ago, KakitaKaori said:His 'spirit' wanted to stay dead because he didn't want Kaede to sacrifice herself or their child for him.
I reckon he would have a little more faith in his wife. And interestingly enough, the spirit's warnings would gain quite a weight if Kaede transplanted Fu Leng into Toturi - that's quite a price and a major twist of fate, after all.
2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:That's Arasou. Toturi was already outside of this, that's another major point of his character.
I reckon he would have a little more faith in his wife. And interestingly enough, the spirit's warnings would gain quite a weight if Kaede transplanted Fu Leng into Toturi - that's quite a price and a major twist of fate, after all.
Except that Fu Leng has no place in Meido. Its quite the stretch honestly.
9 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:Except that Fu Leng has no place in Meido. Its quite the stretch honestly.
That's fine because Kaede pulled back that soul from some kind of weird intermediate dimension. She even panics a little bit when it starts floating towards a big dark hole she identifies as the gates to Meido.
7 hours ago, Schmoozies said:Except for maho, the majority always seem to fall in line with "this time we can make it work" every time they are given even a hint of maho.
Nope.
Team Maho is a very visible faction, and, sadly in the CCG days, often had greater prominence because sometimes the only competitive decks Phoenix could field were maho decks- you could either play a maho deck, win, and influence the story, or you could not play a maho deck, lose, and not count for anything (especially when deck composition was counted for kotei winners).
But at no point did actual enthusiasts make up more than maybe half of the active fanbase. (I'm the guy who wrote one of the two fan-created paths that won the voting at the end of AEG's run- because AEG offered a "try to purify maho as Jigoku's forces stampede over everything!" path, and a "you boring jerks just sit around doing the homework so the actual heroes can do things" paths. Of AEG's paths, maho won- but two fan-created paths that had be explained and refined beat it out. Two write-in paths beat maho.)
So, uh.... how 'bout that Toturi, anyway?
14 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:I disagree on that portrayal of the Phoenix playerbase.
Exhibit A
14 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:My experience with the old forums would argue otherwise
Exhibit B
Now, I love how Toturi is still a pathetic character. Well, maybe not exactly pathetic but definitely tragic.
Do you know what your problem is, Akodo-san?” Ishikawa snapped. “You have lived your life apart from the world—first, in the rigid construct of honor that is the Lion Clan; then, in the cloistered confines of a monastery; and now, in the splendid isolation of the Forbidden City. This has allowed you to keep your honor pristine, but it has also made you idealistic, to the point of naïvety.”
And I love this description of the Lion Clan and how Honor can be a shield but also a burden.
6 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:20 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:I disagree on that portrayal of the Phoenix playerbase.
Exhibit A
20 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:My experience with the old forums would argue otherwise
Exhibit B
It was a joke...
Exhibit C
20 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:Apparently, I'm too subtle
😄
7 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:Do you know what your problem is, Akodo-san?” Ishikawa snapped. “You have lived your life apart from the world—first, in the rigid construct of honor that is the Lion Clan; then, in the cloistered confines of a monastery; and now, in the splendid isolation of the Forbidden City. This has allowed you to keep your honor pristine, but it has also made you idealistic, to the point of naïvety.”
This would have a point from anyone but Ishikawa. This is like Sotorii calling out Tsuko on her lack of self-control.
1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:This would have a point from anyone but Ishikawa. This is like Sotorii calling out Tsuko on her lack of self-control.
Well, except that the events of this story demonstrate that Ishikawa is adept at leveraging scumbags well outside of the Forbidden City...
3 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:Well, except that the events of this story demonstrate that Ishikawa is adept at leveraging scumbags well outside of the Forbidden City...
The point is, that man who lived his whole life in one place fulfilling one role cannot give a lecture about being sheltered to a man whose life is a never-ending roller-coaster of new life experiences, new roles to fulfill, and new challenges to beat.
By the way, as I said before, I think Toturi going honor-haywire on everything like the worst samurai archetype ever is highly uncharacteristic from him considering his pre-resurrection behavior. There is something seriously amiss here, but Ishikawa of all people making a point here kinda blunts the edge.
20 hours ago, AtoMaki said:That's Arasou. Toturi was already outside of this, that's another major point of his character.
Arasou was more impulsive, but Toturi is Arasou's brother. He grew up int he clan. He's more likely to hesitate, for a Lion, but he still grew up in the same family, with the same morality.
I'm all for extrapolating lots from tiny pieces of evidence...it's a source of great fun. But I think you have too much of a stretch this time.
5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:The point is, that man who lived his whole life in one place fulfilling one role cannot give a lecture about being sheltered to a man whose life is a never-ending roller-coaster of new life experiences, new roles to fulfill, and new challenges to beat.
By the way, as I said before, I think Toturi going honor-haywire on everything like the worst samurai archetype ever is highly uncharacteristic from him considering his pre-resurrection behavior. There is something seriously amiss here, but Ishikawa of all people making a point here kinda blunts the edge.
I wouldn't say Toturi's life is a never-ending roller-coaster of new life experiences. I would agree with the last 3-6 months though.
Besides, Ishikawa might be the Chief of the Imperial Guards now but the little it was hinted from his past, makes me believe he might have taken a musha-shugyõ in his youth.
It seems to me like he has way more wordly experience than Toturi and hey, Toturi becoming the reincarnation of Fu Leng would be awesome, let's make him the big bad this time.
8 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:
It was a joke...
Exhibit C
I know it was joke, mine was as well, apparently we are both too subtle 😅
On 4/14/2020 at 11:14 AM, AtoMaki said:By the way, as I said before, I think Toturi going honor-haywire on everything like the worst samurai archetype ever is highly uncharacteristic from him considering his pre-resurrection behavior. There is something seriously amiss here, but Ishikawa of all people making a point here kinda blunts the edge.
A key element in his upbringing, though, is that he will never have dealt with low-status individuals as individuals before (aside from monks who are 'officially' low-status but given the proportion of them that are retired nobles it's the same as geisha being officially hinin - it may be what the law says but it's kind of a technicality). Seeing him actually struggling with being an outsider is a nice perspective if we're taking baby steps towards Toturi-the-Ronin.
The fact that Ishikawa and the seppun clearly deal with the scummier side of life and act to provide intelligent protection instead of just a line of dumb green uniforms on a wall means he will have dealt with people like that. Perhaps not happily, but out of necessity.
Of course, the fact that Seppun Ishikawa's blackmail material on Tamanegi comes from Miya Satoshi suggests he's not quite as clued up as he'd like to think...
6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:A key element in his upbringing, though, is that he will never have dealt with low-status individuals as individuals before
The point is, that if there is one person in the entirety of Rokugan who could just drawn from his diverse experiences to adapt to the situation, then it is Toturi. He was specifically shown to be able to do this multiple times. This was Toturi's big gig: he could deal with stuff in a moment's notice regardless of the odds. And it is very suspicious that such an established character trait gets turned around so drastically and it has such a distinct turning point.
3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:The point is, that if there is one person in the entirety of Rokugan who could just drawn from his diverse experiences to adapt to the situation, then it is Toturi. He was specifically shown to be able to do this multiple times. This was Toturi's big gig: he could deal with stuff in a moment's notice regardless of the odds. And it is very suspicious that such an established character trait gets turned around so drastically and it has such a distinct turning point.
It was Toturi's big gig in Old5R....there's nothing hinting at that in new5r. He is not shown as having that depth of different experiences in new5r....in fact, Ishikawa calls him out on it. I think this is a step along his path of getting there. He's growing into that man...he's just not there yet. Where he is /now/ is a man who gets mired in indecision and who overthinks himself....that has been established to be just about everyone's view of him, and we see that ourselves. Even this course of action, it's Kaede who sets him on it.
7 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:Even this course of action, it's Kaede who sets him on it.
Another random tinfoil hat thought: what if it isn't Toturi who will be/is suffering some consequence of Kaede's reviving him? What if it's Kaede who's vulnerable to corruption/Fu Leng/etc and has set him on a path that benefits the Shadowlands somehow? What if it's a third party? The obvious one would be their child, but what if it isn't? What if it kills one of the princes, resolving the succession? Furthermore, her card's flavor text says "With that choice, a soul was rent and a destiny altered." Again, the obvious thing would be that someone was sacrificed in some manner to alter Toturi's destined death, but what about the less obvious options? It's got me pondering who else's destiny could be altered for the positive (I admit I don't really see a soul rent having a positive meaning). Coming back to Kaede, for example, what if the soul rent is her own - Fu Leng takes notice of her perilous magics and she ends up in the evil-consort-of-evil role, and therefore the destiny altered is Shahai's, by being kicked out/saved from it? (operating of course on the assumption that she's headed to that role as old Shahai was)?
Well, given that Kaede went fishing in the deep end of the Void to get her hubby back, I'd be prepared to say that Nothing is wrong here. Nothing at all.
17 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:It was Toturi's big gig in Old5R....there's nothing hinting at that in new5r.
You mean, except Toturi's entire story so far that - as I mentioned - is a huge ride of him successfully adapting to massive changes in his life. He even finds a way to handle Sotorii, and that's a feat Satsume admittedly failed at!
Him being indecisive and overthinking stuff is actually how others view him, and I think this is a kind of key misunderstanding for 90% of the inter-character conflicts Toturi is involved in. He is really just a typical Only Sane Man in a fleet of helicopters.
17 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:in fact, Ishikawa calls him out on it.
As I said before, this would be a thing from anyone but Ishikawa of all people.
1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:Well, given that Kaede went fishing in the deep end of the Void to get her hubby back, I'd be prepared to say that Nothing is wrong here. Nothing at all.
You know, considering this, my other theory is that Kaede pulling Toturi from the depth of the Void turned his Void Ring into the False Ring of the Void: hatred. That would also explain a lot, and it would be a nice shout out for Fudoism. But I don't think that this would fit the narrative, Fu Leng is much more likely IMO.
31 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:You mean, except Toturi's entire story so far that - as I mentioned - is a huge ride of him successfully adapting to massive changes in his life. He even finds a way to handle Sotorii, and that's a feat Satsume admittedly failed at!
Him being indecisive and overthinking stuff is actually how others view him, and I think this is a kind of key misunderstanding for 90% of the inter-character conflicts Toturi is involved in. He is really just a typical Only Sane Man in a fleet of helicopters.
As I said before, this would be a thing from anyone but Ishikawa of all people.
You know, considering this, my other theory is that Kaede pulling Toturi from the depth of the Void turned his Void Ring into the False Ring of the Void: hatred. That would also explain a lot, and it would be a nice shout out for Fudoism. But I don't think that this would fit the narrative, Fu Leng is much more likely IMO.
I think you may be looking at him with kind of rose colored glasses. We've seen constant examples of Toturi overthinking everything since his first appearance, and while he's been getting better at overcoming it (his taking Yojiro's warning and deciphering what it meant and then later assigning him to be Governor of Toshi Ranbo to end the Lion/Crane conflict over the city being some of the biggest examples) we have still seen him struggle with many other aspects of his role as Champion of the Lion and Emerald Champion.
I would not say he "found" a way to handle Sotorii as the whole send him off to the monastery and anoint his brother was the late Emperor's plan not Toturi's, he was just along for the ride as the Champion who had to pen the edict.
i still don't buy he's being influenced by Fu Leng post resurrection as a thing, I find it far easier to believe he's suffering from some PTSD and has retreated reflexively into what he knows (in this case honor is the bedrock that my clan has based our teachings on) and now when thrust into the world outside of the upper echelons of society he is facing difficulty in getting his worldview to mesh with the reality of how society actually works.
Remember the saying when you hear hooves think of horses before zebras. In the absence of direct evidence to support something the simplest answer (its a horse) is more likely then the obtuse one (its a Zebra).
40 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:We've seen constant examples of Toturi overthinking everything since his first appearance
He wasn't overthinking as much as being the only one who was actually thinking . It is easy to be like that when you are surrounded by people like Tsuko or even Ishikawa.
44 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:i still don't buy he's being influenced by Fu Leng post resurrection as a thing, I find it far easier to believe he's suffering from some PTSD and has retreated reflexively into what he knows (in this case honor is the bedrock that my clan has based our teachings on) and now when thrust into the world outside of the upper echelons of society he is facing difficulty in getting his worldview to mesh with the reality of how society actually works.
My problem with the PTSD explanation is that the sudden change of character starts right at the resurrection scene where Toturi basically attempts to GTFO Kaede... I found that highly uncharacteristic, considering the circumstances. Also, we do have Toturi getting through a highly traumatic event - his brother's death - and he vented it out in a single paragraph. He was consistently shown to be pretty resilient, especially when greater things were on stake, I dunno how falling for something he actually semi-expected when the greatest thing is on stake fits into this.
1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:I would not say he "found" a way to handle Sotorii as the whole send him off to the monastery and anoint his brother was the late Emperor's plan not Toturi's
I was referring to Toturi subtly and very effectively putting Sotorii to his place in The Tiger Stalks His Prey. A scene that actually shows the difference between pre- and post-resurrection Toturi quite well when compared to how he handled the two samurai in this story.