32 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

He wasn't overthinking as much as being the only one who was actually thinking . It is easy to be like that when you are surrounded by people like Tsuko or even Ishikawa.

My problem with the PTSD explanation is that the sudden change of character starts right at the resurrection scene where Toturi basically attempts to GTFO Kaede... I found that highly uncharacteristic, considering the circumstances. Also, we do have Toturi getting through a highly traumatic event - his brother's death - and he vented it out in a single paragraph. He was consistently shown to be pretty resilient, especially when greater things were on stake, I dunno how falling for something he actually semi-expected when the greatest thing is on stake fits into this.

I was referring to Toturi subtly and very effectively putting Sotorii to his place in The Tiger Stalks His Prey. A scene that actually shows the difference between pre- and post-resurrection Toturi quite well when compared to how he handled the two samurai in this story.

There is a huge difference with how most people deal with the death of a loved one (even under tragic circumstances) versus their own near death (although more accurately in Toturi's case actual death) experience. Not to minimize the grief that Toturis would have felt at his brothers death, but as a Lion he has been raised with the knowledge that death on the battlefield is an inevitable end that all samurai must be prepared to face, and that as long as a Samurai met that end with honor that death should be celebrated as a worthy end.

As to putting Sotorii in his "place" did he really, all he seemed to be doing was calling the Prince out on a matter of etiquette and in the end seemed to anger the Prince more then anything else. In many ways he's actually making the same mistake, the world is a place where forms must be observed, the courtiers and Toturi all "ignore" the failings of the Emperor in performing his Kata and the court makes excuses or disregard Sotorii's failings. After all the Emperor is perfect and so we must mask any failings on his part and find excuses for why he may have failed that are not his fault. Even during his conversation with the Emperor in the follow up to his exchange we have him second guessing almost everything he says.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

There is a huge difference with how most people deal with the death of a loved one (even under tragic circumstances) versus their own near death (although more accurately in Toturi's case actual death) experience. Not to minimize the grief that Toturis would have felt at his brothers death, but as a Lion he has been raised with the knowledge that death on the battlefield is an inevitable end that all samurai must be prepared to face, and that as long as a Samurai met that end with honor that death should be celebrated as a worthy end.

This route wouldn't work because samurai are much more conditioned towards accepting their own death, and it is a big part of Akodo's teachings too. On the other hand, essentially sending your brother to his death because you were tired to argue with him is a tough call. Arasou didn't die a honorable death, he was played as a fool and got sniped for his effort, all thanks to Toturi deciding to just roll with the wave. Tsuko even smears this into Toturi's face right after the battle. And Toturi's reaction? A little anger strictly when he is alone, then he pretty much goes shō ga nai and the matter is never brought up again.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

As to putting Sotorii in his "place" did he really, all he seemed to be doing was calling the Prince out on a matter of etiquette and in the end seemed to anger the Prince more then anything else.

And this was still more than anyone else managed to accomplish. Maybe except Shahai. Only Toturi managed to humble Sotorii, drive his point through, and get away with it.

Toturi really showed a lot of awareness and deep understanding, and handled information very well. This happened in every story he was in, from successfully connecting with Kaede to making sense of the Scorpion, rationalizing his brother's death, or handling a volatile family situation with the Emperor. And when he dies, the soul Kaede finds shows nothing of this awareness and understanding, it is actually the exact opposite because the soul apparently thinks that leaving Kaede alone in the middle of a shadow conspiracy that killed her husband will work out totally fine.

Another thing I can see is that the writers are setting up Dark & Edgy Toturi so that the fans won't tear him apart when Hatsuko shows up. I can see this being an issue now, due to the timeline changes.

I'd just like to interject at this point and say that I am amused that this debate about whose understanding of the fiction is correct is taking place in a thread titled "How the world ought to work."

I want more of Toturi being annoyed at Ishikawa. Also I was a little sad at the disharmony in the final scene between Kaede and Toturi, but it makes sense considering the circumstances. I like that this story really humanizes Toturi who can easily be written as overly robotic.

Actually now, with the whole Ishikawa wants my wife and she might be into him too thing.... I can see Hatsuko happen way more organically. You know, distrust and misunderstandings can lead to that.

7 hours ago, Matsu Kenshin said:

Actually now, with the whole Ishikawa wants my wife and she might be into him too thing.... I can see Hatsuko happen way more organically. You know, distrust and misunderstandings can lead to that.

You mean the Hatsuko who works in a geisha house frequented by the Lion? Who knows that Aramoro & Kachiko were behind the attempt to rig the Emerald Championship? Who has just lost her patron Bayushi Kachiko? Who, perhaps, might recognize an Emerald Champion trying to keep a low profile?

I think this is in competition for my favorite fiction so far.

You know-- I figured that having to deal with all the bickering clans, all insisting that their one way of doing things is "the right way" (particularly the Crane who they have allowed to pretty much dictate the dominant culture of Rokugan) and yet never really bothering to try to set any of those clans straight and teach them some common sense, instead just tolerating them doing their thing and trying to strike some sort of balance where you aren't favoring any too much and the inter-clan disputes don't get out-of-hand to the degree that a whole Great Clan gets lost...

You got to figure that such a level of tolerance and acceptance probably means they have an easier time dealing with ronin or peasants or merchants too. Because they just have to have this awareness of "you aren't doing what you are supposed to? Great-- neither is anyone else." The important thing is to focus on taking down those that actually pose an existential threat to the empire and to be well aware enough about what everyone else is doing to be positioned to take them down if absolutely necessary (or, better yet, get someone else to do it).

And it is refreshing to see that kind of cosmopolitan pragmatism at play, not the Scorpion's whole "everything is shadowy and secret and we are cutting the throats of our own and funding the crime bosses up and down the chain" like in Ryoko Owari, but simple understanding that it is better to be tolerant of people not doing what you would prefer them to be doing and just accepting those differences and dealing with the most pressing issues first.

But it is ironic that the same author totally fodderized the Seppun Honor Guard in one story and then actually shows a Seppun to be highly competent in another.

Plus it makes Toturi look even more like an idiot, so there’s that 😁
Maybe idiot is too strong a word, oblivious may be more likely but that depends on your bias towards the Lion Clan and Toturi in general.

11 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Plus it makes Toturi look even more like an idiot, so there’s that 😁
Maybe idiot is too strong a word, oblivious may be more likely but that depends on your bias towards the Lion Clan and Toturi in general.

Well, Ishikawa might have been a bit too harsh in his judgement...

But when you rule over a bunch of rural villages where hardly any actual trade takes place, sure-- you can go and intervene in every dispute and hunt down every illegal transaction.

When you are ruling over a city of a million people cramped together with visitors from all across the land (and beyond) constantly coming and going, a ton of trade (and enough of it you wouldn't approve of) happening.... well, you go and crack down on every single thing that is amiss and you will just push them further into the shadows and will miss the bigger, more pressing issues.

And, although the imperials have the smallest swath of land to call their own, they are the smallest "clan" and yet their attention is spread thin all across the empire to the point that they need to shore up their armies, agencies, and departments with people from all the other clans who all have their own way of doing things and you just got to let things slide or nothing gets done.

But for the Lion Clan Champion? Everyone he has ever had to deal with is a Lion who is raised and trained to act like a Lion and whenever he encountered someone who wasn't acting properly like a Lion, he would roar at them until they either acted like a Lion or ran away. And, ironically, Toturi wasn't even very good at acting like a Lion himself.

And, really, as much as the Emerald Champion believes himself in full command of the Emerald Magistrates, it is far more likely that the magistrates just keep operating smoothly regardless of who has that position. Sure, when face to face with him, they got to do what he commands to humor him-- but everyone who doesn't encounter him just keeps things running smoothly.

Probably the real role of the Emerald Champion is, because the Crane Clan convinced everyone that dueling reveals the "will of heavens" (which, if they really believed that, makes it really stupid to have a dueling academy and to train and practice in dueling-- because if it revealed the "will of heavens" then a child who picked up a sword for the first time with a righteous cause would defeat the most educated, trained, practiced master swordsman in all the land with an unjust cause-- meaning... no, they don't believe it. No one really does.), that they needed to make sure that the greatest duelist in all the empire was the one that people would have to face if they tried challenging the imperial court to duels.

22 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Well, Ishikawa might have been a bit too harsh in his judgement...

But when you rule over a bunch of rural villages where hardly any actual trade takes place, sure-- you can go and intervene in every dispute and hunt down every illegal transaction.

When you are ruling over a city of a million people cramped together with visitors from all across the land (and beyond) constantly coming and going, a ton of trade (and enough of it you wouldn't approve of) happening.... well, you go and crack down on every single thing that is amiss and you will just push them further into the shadows and will miss the bigger, more pressing issues.

And, although the imperials have the smallest swath of land to call their own, they are the smallest "clan" and yet their attention is spread thin all across the empire to the point that they need to shore up their armies, agencies, and departments with people from all the other clans who all have their own way of doing things and you just got to let things slide or nothing gets done.

But for the Lion Clan Champion? Everyone he has ever had to deal with is a Lion who is raised and trained to act like a Lion and whenever he encountered someone who wasn't acting properly like a Lion, he would roar at them until they either acted like a Lion or ran away. And, ironically, Toturi wasn't even very good at acting like a Lion himself.

And, really, as much as the Emerald Champion believes himself in full command of the Emerald Magistrates, it is far more likely that the magistrates just keep operating smoothly regardless of who has that position. Sure, when face to face with him, they got to do what he commands to humor him-- but everyone who doesn't encounter him just keeps things running smoothly.

Probably the real role of the Emerald Champion is, because the Crane Clan convinced everyone that dueling reveals the "will of heavens" (which, if they really believed that, makes it really stupid to have a dueling academy and to train and practice in dueling-- because if it revealed the "will of heavens" then a child who picked up a sword for the first time with a righteous cause would defeat the most educated, trained, practiced master swordsman in all the land with an unjust cause-- meaning... no, they don't believe it. No one really does.), that they needed to make sure that the greatest duelist in all the empire was the one that people would have to face if they tried challenging the imperial court to duels.

We also have to consider Ishikawa has an ulterior motive to look down on Toturi as he is jealous of his relationship with Kaede and is himself in love with her so making himself "look" better the Toturi is likely his own way of striking back at him.

Might makes right and all that.

If I can cut you to pieces for calling me on my fecal matter, are you willing to still call on me?

23 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

When you are ruling over a city of a million people cramped together with visitors from all across the land (and beyond) constantly coming and going

I'm fairly sure that the population of Otosan Uchi is supposedly somewhere around the 40,000 mark. A million is probably more than the entire population of most Great Clans.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm fairly sure that the population of Otosan Uchi is supposedly somewhere around the 40,000 mark. A million is probably more than the entire population of most Great Clans.

True, but the point still stands. It's one of the three largest and certainly the most cosmopolitan in terms of the varied clan population and the sheer influence of the people you're trying to 'police'.

22 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Might makes right and all that.

If I can cut you to pieces for calling me on my fecal matter, are you willing to still call on me?

Well, that's pretty much Matsu Tsuko-ue's succession strategy in a nutshell, isn't it?

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm fairly sure that the population of Otosan Uchi is supposedly somewhere around the 40,000 mark. A million is probably more than the entire population of most Great Clans.

Well... it would be larger than the samurai population of any of the Great Clans, but recall that we are talking about tradesmen, merchants, artisans, fishermen, and who knows how many other hinan and burakkuman to keep the city going. And am I crazy for thinking there has got to be an entertainment district there with geisha, sake houses, kabuki theaters and such-- even if Ryoko Owari might potentially surpass it?

I feel like this is a typical mistake people make in L5R-- because all the stories are focused on the samurai, it is easy to forget that there are between 9 to 19 other human lives for every samurai that exists,

I mean-- Otosan Uchi is kind of like Kyoto, Tokyo and Osaka rolled into one-- hard to imagine any inland city even remotely competes.

Perhaps 1 million on any given day might be an exaggeration, but-- depending on whether one sees the population of any given clan in the 1,000s or 100,000s (I could entertain either possibility) then 40,000 between the regular residents and visitors is probably shooting too low once one stops focusing purely on just the samurai and accounts for all human beings spending time within that city on any given day. And if one proposes that the population of samurai within Rokugan might be in the 100,000s then it is quite possible that on any given day 1 million could well be the number of people that the Imperials are dealing with on any given day, even if many are not permanent residents.

In the 1600s when Japan had roughly the technological level of Rokugan, the population was between 22-30 million. And Rokugan is much larger than Japan. So while 1 out of every 5 people visiting the capital on a given day does seem out-of-the-question, if Rokugan has 4 to 5 times that number to account for being 4 to 5 times larger, then 1 million people spending the day in the capital doesn't really seem nearly so far fetched.

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm fairly sure that the population of Otosan Uchi is supposedly somewhere around the 40,000 mark. A million is probably more than the entire population of most Great Clans.

56 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

In the 1600s when Japan had roughly the technological level of Rokugan, the population was between 22-30 million. And Rokugan is much larger than Japan. So while 1 out of every 5 people visiting the capital on a given day does seem out-of-the-question, if Rokugan has 4 to 5 times that number to account for being 4 to 5 times larger, then 1 million people spending the day in the capital doesn't really seem nearly so far fetched.

The problem is that the size of Rokugan was never expelled out, which I totally agree is dumb. Some say is the size of China, some say the size of Japan, some say the size of the Korean Peninsula.

I for one, prefer the size of Korean, not so immensely huge that makes the Emperor leave Otosan Uchi by mid-autumn if they will spend the Winter anywhere not in Imperial, Lion or Crane lands.
Anyway, if one were to take the Joseon Kingdom as blueprint, then the population of Korea (or Japan) was around 11 million people back then and their largest urban center around 300,000 people.
Of course, during the crowning of a new Emperor, with the Champions coming from all over with their entourage and servants, I could easily see that population almost doubling for a short period of time (around half a million).
Again, Rokugan your way and all that, if you want a large Empire akin to the Ming Empire, by all means, go for it.

7 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

The problem is that the size of Rokugan was never expelled out, which I totally agree is dumb. Some say is the size of China, some say the size of Japan, some say the size of the Korean Peninsula.

I for one, prefer the size of Korean, not so immensely huge that makes the Emperor leave Otosan Uchi by mid-autumn if they will spend the Winter anywhere not in Imperial, Lion or Crane lands.
Anyway, if one were to take the Joseon Kingdom as blueprint, then the population of Korea (or Japan) was around 11 million people back then and their largest urban center around 300,000 people.
Of course, during the crowning of a new Emperor, with the Champions coming from all over with their entourage and servants, I could easily see that population almost doubling for a short period of time (around half a million).
Again, Rokugan your way and all that, if you want a large Empire akin to the Ming Empire, by all means, go for it.

Fair enough-- but my original point was that the sheer number of visitors, travelers and residents of the capital push the imperials or "Owl Clan" to be way more cosmopolitan than the "Lion Clan" who preside over a much, much larger region of land-- but all of it very rural without many coming and going and only the minimal amount of trade going on.

whether the imperial capital sees over 1 million a day, or just half of that, hardly really matters in the grand scheme of the concept.

There is always so much focus on just the Imperial Palace when it comes to the Seppun, Otomo and Miya (and Kasuga) that it is often forgotten that they deal with quite a lot wider diversity of culture and quite a wider departure from proper implementation of Bushido than perhaps anyone but the Unicorn. From the cartographers to the heralds to the census takers to the tax collectors to the bureaucrats to the magistrates-- honestly, it is the temple guards that probably have to deal with the least variation of people not doing what they are supposed to.

Is it really a surprise that they decide to let the lesser crimes go in order to pursue the bigger crimes? Not at all.

You think they don't know that every clan out there in Rokugan uses shinobi and "gaijin pepper" even though it is outlawed? Hardly-- not only do they surely do both themselves, they are well aware all of the clans do too-- having an imperial edict against it just means the clans aren't going to flaunt it openly and they have an excuse to go lead the imperial legions to crack down on a clan if they use it so recklessly that they threaten to exterminate one of the others.

They are the one group in the empire who can't just point to another clan and say "I hate everything you stand for, I am going to destroy you utterly". They are rather honor-bound to play nice with everyone and try to get everyone to be the best selves they can-- while, ironically, also ensuring they don't get so cozy with one another that they form a permanent, unbreakable alliance that allows them to dominate the whole empire.

Make what you will of the tasks assigned to all the other clans-- no one else has to deal with that level of stress.

So when it comes to policing a large city, particularly their own, should it really be any surprise that the imperials know what they are doing better than a Lion... or Crane... or Scorpion for that matter? The answer really has to be a resounding "no". The Scorpion come closest to dealing with such things and the way they do can be strongly contrasted between the Scorpion novel and this story. The difference between "let's lie to everyone so even those on our side believe that we are the enemy" to "let's shine a light on everything for all who need to know, but act wisely when the time is right".

Because while the Scorpion are savvy-- they, again, deal with everything in a Scorpion way, expecting everyone to act like Scorpions about everything. The moment they have another clan with different ways of dealing with things come in and not act in a way they predict, things go wildly awry. Not that things aren't awry in Otosan Uchi, it is just that those charged with keeping order are well aware that they are awry, accept that things are a bit awry and crack down only where necessary to keep things orderly.