There is a lack and mismatch on the hierarchy of the Empire and that is also how it was on real world as well.

The Emperor has as landed vassals the daimyō of the Otomo, Miya and Seppun Imperial Families, the Great Clan Champions and the Minor Clan Champions and the Emerald Champion. They all have different values of status based on their power, prestige and familiarity with the Emperor.

The Imperial Families and Minor Clans are small enough that they don't have more than one Castle/Palace and might have a few Samurai assigned as Mayors or Governors if they have an important city on their domain, but possibly no more landed samurai than the head of the family.

The Great Clan Champions have the head of their respective families and one or other general assigned to a fortress and the respective village and surrounding land and any Clan Magistrate assigned to a castle or town.

The head of the Families have lesser daimyō assigned to the many provinces that make the land given to the family.

These lesser daimyō might have, depending on the size of the province some landed samurai that oversse a village or a town.

These lesser daimyō might or might be from a vassal family of a great famliy or might be a representative of said great family, same for the landed samurai.

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

24 minutes ago, robothedino said:

You have to start assuming (again) that these people are not quite sane in the sense we all understand

I think you might be underestimating how insane and messed up samurai are. From an out-setting point of view samurai are monsters.

The perfect samurai have no Fear, no Desire and no Regret (the 3 Sins) and they are duty-bound to obey their lord utterly and to the death.

The perfect samurai is a robot, no a human being. The Terminator would be a good samurai.

One of my musing on the setting is that the reason the rokugani society is so ******-up is because of the founding Kami. The kami were divine beings born in tengoku with vast power, an alien mindset, and a poor knowledge of humanity and human nature. When they crashed on ningen-do they simply copy/paste the organisation of tengoku upon their followers. But their followers were human being with human feelings and needs and were unable to measure up to the requirements of tengoku. To compound the mistake of the kami, human have corrupted a system that was inappropriate to begin with.

That the tragedy of the rokugani, trapped by tradition to cleave to an inhumane system

1 hour ago, robothedino said:

A vassal family, to my thinking, holds no land- they have a name of their own as a mark of status, and perhaps certain privileges not afforded to others, but do not own land and are dependent on the stipends offered by a daimyo. Perhaps this is stated as otherwise somewhere in the last 20 years or whatever it is of L5R material, but that's how I've always read the distinction between those two terms.

I have a different understanding of the vassal familes. Kotagama are a vassal family of the Doji, so like the Kakita they are vassal of the Doji. Yet they are not equal as Kakita swore fealty to the kami Doji in the earliest days of the empire and the Kotagama were created in the 5th century as internal security following the Yajinden debacle. To my mind the Great Families are those who swore fealty to the Kami, the Vassal Families were created later on to answer a new need or as a reward for a worthy samurai. That being said, vassal families have a castle, the town that comes with it, (more or less) farmable lands and so on. But it is just my view on it.

27 minutes ago, robothedino said:

or that their lands are productive in some respect other than in rice farming

You might be overestimating the role of rice as food. I have come to understand that only senior member of the aristocraty eat rice at every meal. The common ji-samurai that guard the gates of Friendly Traveler Village do not eat rice at every meal or even every day and his diet comprise other grains. The main reason behind the value of rice is its role as currency since the koku is backed by rice and imperial taxes are paid up with rice.

Also of note is that there are many daimyo whose lands is unsuitable for rice farming or even just farming. They have to make up with other trading goods like ore or woods. If he can't, he is a dirt-poor lord of a backwater village too poor to afford the trappings of the aristocraty or just sustain soldiers. He is the subject to ridicule and become a joke for the courtiers.

29 minutes ago, robothedino said:

What is the difference between a landless (or land-owning but without any income thereby) daimyo and a high-ranking hatamoto?

A high ranking hatamoto is a well respected, politicaly powerful man that dine of rice and fresh fish evry meals and spend his time with other pampered courtier.

A poor daimyo is just a cruel joke who can barely afford to feed a small houseguard with millet and have not bought a new kimono in 5 years. He is shamed and scorned.

1 hour ago, robothedino said:

rationalize the canonical setting with an added in setting element or principle of realpolitik

In-setting realpolitik is the reason the scorpion are still alive. By all accounts everyone loathe and despise them, a concerted extermination by all the other clans armies would seems logical. Yet they endure because every lord know that a time will come when **** will hit the fan, they will have not honorable way out except the scorpion. When that time come you can always have a little chat with a scorpion courtier to have things "taken care of". You do not have to be explict, you do not have to know what will be done and you can keep your reputation and reasonable deniability. Of course, one day the scorpion will come with a "request", but that the price.

Speaking of realpolitik, you might what to consider this: the rokugani society is messed-up, yet the senior nobility are at the top of this heap of manure. They don't want to get their hands dirty by plunging into the heap, and they don't want to stick out (and becoming a target) by trying to fix it. Any change means death. Better to stay safe and comfortable at the top where the air is fresh(er).

See you in the Sands.

Okay, I get where this is coming from now, I think. That said, I think the OP needs to bend a little bit and accept that there some values in Rokugan that simply have no analog in the real world. There IS an objectively real divinity, that everyone knows about and accepts; Bushido IS the social code that governs all aspects of samurai society (with conformance to, or departure from its tenets defining one's worth in terms of honor); the clans HAVE been given their particular, respective duties, and they take them very, very seriously (really, it makes little RL sense for one clan to be about "art and poetry and such", another about "scholarly pursuit of spiritualism", another about "being the army of the Empire", and so on. In reality, the clans would be more like the clans of Sengoku-period Japan, just tribalistic groups under various warlords, with no particular assigned duties and a focus mainly on advancing their own interests; however, this setting did originate as a card game that needed to give each faction its particular flavor in the game).

So if we can accept that, then we can tackle the matter of trying to make it consistent and believable (again, to the extent it already isn't, anyway). So, a few thoughts:

-if simply being given stewardship of lands is an issue, then that's easily solved for the Crab families--the Hiruma lands are still the Hiruma lands, and Daylight Castle is still their ancestral seat of power. They haven't ceded their lands to the Shadowlands by any means. Likewise, the Kuni still have stewardship over their lands, and are trying very hard to find ways to return them to some semblance of life.

-if it's having PRODUCTIVE lands that's the issue, then we've got to define what "productive" means. As noted, the Moto may have peasants farming some of their lands (I haven't really written anything about the Unicorn, so I'm not sure), but even if they don't, there are other resources the empire needs--minerals, stone and lumber come to mind. But "productive", as a concept, is unequal across the Empire. Again, the Yogo have lands that are mostly fallow, as do the Soshi. The Hiruma obviously don't produce much (although they do have lands generally south of the Shinomen Mori), while the Kuni are probably still producing things like stone and various ores. The western portion of the Unicorn lands are mostly undeveloped. The Dragon have VERY little arable land and, again, produce stone, timber and ore. So, really, if this is an issue for the Hiruma and the Kuni, then it's an issue for several other families, and one entire clan.

-inside the setting, the standard has been set that, this notwithstanding, the Empire's political makeup has remained largely unchanged for over a thousand years. Really, if you want to have issues with suspension of disbelief, this is where you should probably have it. It's tough to imagine a civilization with the technological achievement of Rokugan in, say, the fifth century, by the time of the thirteenth century having remained utterly unchanged. Much of the population is educated to at least some degree, there are scholars who are curious about the world around them, and yet there has been no innovation to speak of, no development of new technologies to make life easier and more productive? And yet, if we can accept this, then I think we need to be able to accept that these political constructs, like a daimyo being what a daimyo is, irrespective of having lost all their lands or not producing enough food to feed their own people.

Now, if there's a way of harmonizing this frankly somewhat "forced" version of the Empire (which, again, exists primarily to be a game setting!) with more something more "realistic", then I'd be really interested to see it. ****, I'm one of the writers for the fiction and the RPG, I've been playing games set in this world since 1996, and I still have trouble with some aspects of the setting!

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

the clans HAVE been given their particular, respective duties, and they take them very, very seriously (really, it makes little RL sense for one clan to be about "art and poetry and such", another about "scholarly pursuit of spiritualism", another about "being the army of the Empire", and so on. In reality, the clans would be more like the clans of Sengoku-period Japan, just tribalistic groups under various warlords, with no particular assigned duties and a focus mainly on advancing their own interests

I have come to think that rokugan isn't a nation in the modern sense.

All clans have their own army, police, bureaucracy, intelligence services, .... . Each clan even have there own culture and traditions. (eg.: A Crab marriage ceremony do not looks like a Phoenix one.) . They are 7 separate kingdoms at each others throats, united only by a common language, respect for the 9 Kami and fear of the imperial legions.

As for the "Duties of the Clans", to my mind it is political ploy. The dragon have no true duty. The crab share a border with the Shadowlands. Whatever duty hantei might have potentialy given them they would have fight the Taint. Given the position of their lands at the south of the empire, they have no choice. As for the lion, their "duty" is just sugar-coating the fact they are here to be the hantei bullies and strongmen.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

if simply being given stewardship of lands is an issue, then that's easily solved for the Crab families--the Hiruma lands are still the Hiruma lands, and Daylight Castle is still their ancestral seat of power. They haven't ceded their lands to the Shadowlands by any means. Likewise, the Kuni still have stewardship over their lands, and are trying very hard to find ways to return them to some semblance of life.

A good and valid point.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

If it's having PRODUCTIVE lands that's the issue, then we've got to define what "productive" means. As noted, the Moto may have peasants farming some of their lands (I haven't really written anything about the Unicorn, so I'm not sure), but even if they don't, there are other resources the empire needs--minerals, stone and lumber come to mind. But "productive", as a concept, is unequal across the Empire. Again, the Yogo have lands that are mostly fallow, as do the Soshi. The Hiruma obviously don't produce much (although they do have lands generally south of the Shinomen Mori), while the Kuni are probably still producing things like stone and various ores. The western portion of the Unicorn lands are mostly undeveloped. The Dragon have VERY little arable land and, again, produce stone, timber and ore. So, really, if this is an issue for the Hiruma and the Kuni, then it's an issue for several other families, and one entire clan.

Sounds reasonable.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

inside the setting, the standard has been set that, this notwithstanding, the Empire's political makeup has remained largely unchanged for over a thousand years.

True.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

Really, if you want to have issues with suspension of disbelief, this is where you should probably have it. It's tough to imagine a civilization with the technological achievement of Rokugan in, say, the fifth century, by the time of the thirteenth century having remained utterly unchanged.

To be fair, the Real World Middle Ages europe didn't innovate much between the fall of the western roman empire (5th century) and the renaissance (15th century). There is a reason it have been called the Dark Ages.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

Much of the population is educated to at least some degree

I have to disagree with you on this one.

The samurai population is educated. They are all literate and have a good grasp of their clan history. A good education is the shugenja and courtier stock in trade and most of the clan expect their bushi to be more that mere warrior.

Heimin and hinin population on the other hand seems largely illiterate. No village in lore have a school, usually they have a shrine with no monk on a permanent basis. City-dwellers are more likely to be literate, and merchant must be numerate. But there is no large scale education for the heimin, at best a wealthy commoner hire a personnal tutor to teach is children.

From Naishou Province (4th) p12: the peasantry of Naishou Province [...] have an unusually high rate of literacy for commoners. This is particularly true in Toshi no Naishou, where nearly half of the heimin can read and write. While most of them rarely have idle time to dedicate to reading and thus can never match the education of the average samurai, they still maintain their proficiency and pass their skill along to their children.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

there are scholars who are curious about the world around them

All things considered. No that much, the main clan: Lion, Crane and Scorpion (the 3 hands) do not care much about the world outside the imperial court. Some have trouble caring about the clans far from the capital like the dragon and the crab.

Kaiu produce engineer and Agasha scholar produce alchemist but that's it.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

yet there has been no innovation to speak of, no development of new technologies to make life easier and more productive?

At the Second Council of the Lateran in 1139, the pope banned the use of bows and crossbows against christians. So much for innovation in real world.

Back to rokugan, samurai despise innovation because the bulk of their knowledge was given by the 9 kami. Finding a better way to do things is to say the kamis were flawed.

Moreover samurai fear innvoation because innovation means change which leads to social discordance. Keeping social harmony, and themselves in power is far more appealing.

For heimin, the traditional ways have given them food to centuries. Why risk famine with innovation ?

Also please remember that after the battle of white stag: " the Emperors prohibited contact between Rokugan and proclaimed shipbuilding to be a “perfected art” with no need for further development. Technologies such as the triangular fore-and-aft rigged sail, one of the features which allowed gaijin ships to easily traverse the far seas, were thus effectively forbidden by Imperial Edict."

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

Now, if there's a way of harmonizing this frankly somewhat "forced" version of the Empire (which, again, exists primarily to be a game setting!) with more something more "realistic", then I'd be really interested to see it.

As far as "realistic" goes, I often find reality to be utterly insane. Open an history book (or Wikipedia), it is amazing how many momentous events are the result of dumbass decisions, sheer luck, spite or jealousy.

Granted, the game setting has some flaws but as a way to sustain the "suspension of disbelief" and to preserve the internal consistency of the setting it is useful and possible to explain them in a way that is reasonable in-setting.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

****

Language ! Please !

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

I'm one of the writers for the fiction and the RPG, I've been playing games set in this world since 1996, and I still have trouble with some aspects of the setting!

Which provide me with an opportunity to thank you for the good work. I have learned to read with RPG book in the 80s and I have spent countless hours enjoying your works. Thank You.

I think saying that Rokugan has no innovations or shakeups is a little wrong - but there is definitely a LOT of social pressure to return to the Status Quo, whether that's by some aspect of Divine Right, or just that the status quo teams eventually win back. There have been several territorial shifts at points in Rokugan's history, and even the development/addition of new families who thus need to have some portion of extant land divvied up for them to hold. Minor Clans have risen and fallen in this time. Heck, the Carpenter Wall was not an original feature when the Crab Clan was founded. There have been times of great loss of resources which caused famine and war. There's been technological advances in some form too, though to infer or imply you have "surpassed" certain sacred ancestors would be too rude for public society, but we know from fluff that personal weapons have advanced from the jian (presumably subbing in for the tsurugi) to the chokuto (which ancestral swords are supposedly) to the modern katana , or the Lion developed the zanbato to counter Unicorn horsemen. Emperors have been tyrants, have been killed, have been political puppets, but eventually somebody comes around to right the ship and put the Hantei back in charge, because that's the ancestral bond and generally understood to be the nature of the Social Contract. There are groups who seek to overturn this nature of society, but they also have their own practical issues (like, "Hey Kolat, what are you gonna do about Fu Leng now that you've banished the influence of the Kami from Rokugan, since he probably won't just leave you alone").

Now, on the subject of contention among Crab families, the samurai and lands sworn to the Crab Champion. You could indeed write a plot about how some may resent or deride the Kuni and Hiruma for their lands being non-productive, though imperial taxation is based on output, so with so little to put out they at least aren't underperforming in that aspect, probably. However, this discussion would be met with some very "realpolitik" problems of its own. The Kuni and Hiruma are markedly useful to the Crab Clan in their neverending Jigoku war. Kuni are a source of scholarship, especially on the Shadowlands, in addition to their abilities as warrior-priests. As the stewards of the Barracks of the Damned, they keep an eye on those who are Tainted but still useful, and their witch-hunters are a premiere anti-Maho organization since there are no more Jade Magistrates (another political alteration), and one who are entirely inside Crab control, so nobody has to go running to the Scorpion, Phoenix or Hare. Their magic keeps things running, and so to diminish their size, prestige and authority could hurt that mission. Similarly, the Hiruma have a knowledge of scouting, survival and sabotage in the Shadowlands no other family can match, backed by their burning desire to reclaim their territory (also they're good at force multiplication, so pissing them off would probably go poorly). Now obviously, you could degrade these families to vassals of those more productive families, but as pointed out, it's not like there's anything particular to be gained from this. You still need the bodies and expertise provided by the families, and nobody else should particularly want to govern their "lands" instead of them. Having more rice does nothing if you're all Tainted or eaten by Goblins, and that is something all Crab should understand. If you wanted to pursue such a plot, there would definitely need to be some outside source. Perhaps a hoity-toity Otomo notices how pathetic Hiruma and Kuni taxes are and wants to see them reduced, and the Crab would have to defend their place among them as esteemed ancestral families - their names going back even further than the Otomo.

On the subject of Clan Duties, I think most of this is just vague tradition based on what Hantei asked his siblings to do. Some of them kind of kipped off to do their own thing anyway, others take it more seriously as an extension of the desires of their founder. Hantei asked Akodo to be his right hand and lead his armies in the War Against Shadow, so that's the role the Lion play to this day, but technically Shinjo just went "I'm gonna go look for threats outside Rokugan, kthxbai", so when the Unicorn came back they kind of vaguely settle into "and we're those guys who did explore the wider world".

21 minutes ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

I have come to think that rokugan isn't a nation in the modern sense.

All clans have their own army, police, bureaucracy, intelligence services, .... . Each clan even have there own culture and traditions. (eg.: A Crab marriage ceremony do not looks like a Phoenix one.) . They are 7 separate kingdoms at each others throats, united only by a common language, respect for the 9 Kami and fear of the imperial legions.

You would be looking at the Holy Roman Empire for the equivalent in the real world. Granted the Empire Armies weren’t so feared after the Thirty Years War.

25 minutes ago, Lord of the Seal said:

To be fair, the Real World Middle Ages europe didn't innovate much between the fall of the western roman empire (5th century) and the renaissance (15th century). There is a reason it have been called the Dark Ages.

I would disagree there, they developed two crop rotation, they improved they improved their metallurgy, they developed crossbow and they improved their ship design by the end of the time frame.

6 hours ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

From Emeral Empire (4th edition) Regional supply and demand p136:

The Crab lands are mostly rugged and barren, and relatively little of their territory is well-suited to agriculture. It doesn’t help them, of course, that so much of the Hiruma and Kuni lands were lost to the Shadowlands or devastated by exposure to the Taint. Even in a good year, the Crab barely produce enough food to feed themselves, especially since the enormous standing garrison of the Great Carpenter Wall is a perpetual drain on their food supplies. The clan therefore exports no rice, and often has to rely on food imports to get by.

[...]

The Crab’s most important commodity, however, is without a doubt the abundant and high-quality iron ore mined in the Hida lands, which in turn is used to create the clan’s most valued export: Kaiu steel and the weapons, armor, and tools made from it.

[...]

The Crab can never have enough jade to satisfy the needs of their armies, and during eras of shortage, when jade production falls, the Crab often are forced to trade other goods for more jade in order to keep their armies fully supplied.

To sum up:

- The Crab Clan need food and jade, the Yasuki buy it by selling Tea & Ore.

From Emeral Empire (4th edition) Regional supply and demand p138:

The Lion Clan’s only significant import needs are iron (usually supplied by the Crab) and sometimes food [...] this has often worked to their detriment when a poor harvest coincides with a war against the Crane.

Humm. Your quotes definitely put you spot on and me wrong. The Crab were known for being the only clan that could double-harvest rice in earlier editions, and they /can/ and do harvest rice in 5th edition...we see it in the Hare Clan story (We Strike First). I'm not sure it's the case in 5th ed that the Crab are necessarily that hard up for food. Food is not one of the things Taka asks to trade for from Kakita Yoshi in the story 'A Difference of Lanterns', and it is not a problem Kisada mentions (among his many problems) in 'Dark Hands of Heaven'. In We Strike First, it mentions that Bramble Thorn village does pay taxes in rice, those taxes haven't been raised for years, and has rice to spare for traveling Hare, and in Kurosanai village they have excess uncounted Barley that they use for brewing Shochu. Basically, it doesn't sound like a situation where the Crab are starving.

BUT if they are trading for food with the Crane, they would be starving, again, because even if the Crane were willing to trade with the Crab at this point in the timeline, the /Crane/ are expressly going through a famine. Plus, as I said, I don't think the Crane and Lion and Crane and Crab could conflict as much as they do if the Crab and Lion were dependent on the Crane for food.

Overall, although I agree with what you say about 4th Ed, I'm not sure it's best for the story to assume that that is the case for 5th Ed.

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

16 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

You would be looking at the Holy Roman Empire for the equivalent in the real world. Granted the Empire Armies weren’t so feared after the Thirty Years War.

Good thinking ! Since German unification was in 1871, the Holy Roman Empire seems a really good match.

18 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

I would disagree there, they developed two crop rotation, they improved they improved their metallurgy, they developed crossbow and they improved their ship design by the end of the time frame.

My apologies. I didn't meant there wasn't any innovation whatsoever, just that I have come to understand that innovation was very slow and any improvement would not spread very fast.

It is worth considering that according to some studies during the Industrial Revolution the GDP growth of the UK was 0.5%/year. The thing is that it was 0.5% every year for a century. So after 100 years that is quite significant, especially compared to the preceding period.

22 minutes ago, KakitaKaori said:

Overall, although I agree with what you say about 4th Ed, I'm not sure it's best for the story to assume that that is the case for 5th Ed.

Fully agreed.

L5R have decades of lore, obviously FFG have not updated all of it. My quotes where only the latest "official" take on the subject.

I'm pleased with all the discussion my questions have kicked off- I enjoy being the ignorant five year old who points and says "What's that?" and get all the grown ups arguing. There's a lot going on here that I don't have time to respond to just yet, but if I can I'd like to reorient the discussion slightly.

Most or all of these perspectives are coming from a "top down" approach- they're about powerful people telling less powerful people what to do. This is valid and real.

At the same time, there is a bottom-up approach that is missing, and that is closer to what I was initially interested in when I started this thread. All those powerful shot-callers are powerful exactly because the people underneath them choose to follow them. If one or two of their subservients get out of line, the daimyos and champions and emperors can tell their other subordinates to stab them, and that's that.

But if anything close to 50% (probably much less) of the rank and file is unhappy with the leadership, then their power evaporates. It's all built on their ability to get the masses to agree that, all things considered, things are better working for this guy than that guy.

Consider this: We have a young Hiruma, not particularly dis honorable but not the kind of bushido fanatic that Lord of the Seal has been talking about. He wants to be a good samurai, but he'd also like the same things every human being wants: for their children to grow up with full bellies and a bright future, a chance to indulge his personal pursuits, and not to die screaming in the belly of a hellbeast.

Nothing at all stops him from packing up his daisho and going to the next lord over and swearing service to him. He has a gazillion ways to rationalize this choice without too much cognitive dissonance- people are really good at this. Let's say he does- what next?

The Hiruma family is now one samurai weaker than it was before, but more importantly, all of that Hiruma's brothers and cousins and so forth are getting letters from Kyuden Bayushi or whatever hearing about how nice the weather is and oh, nothing has tried to eat his face even once, and there's not just food but girls, girls, girls. So, again, most of them have no reason not to pack up and follow suit.

At this point, a feedback loop starts. The more samurai defect, the weaker the Hiruma are, and therefore the more enticing it is to jump ship, because it just got that much more dangerous to be a Hiruma. If the stipends for the remaining samurai increase proportionally, then there may be an equilibrium point- it depends on the calculus of numbers-to-survivability-to-income, which we don't really know.

For the Hiruma specifically this is about as far as it goes, because not having any land to speak of worth stealing, they aren't really under threat from other clans. But now think of that Kaiu samurai, whose stipend is cut in half relative to what it would be otherwise because a huge chunk of his lord's income is going to subsidize a bunch of freeloaders on the Wall. When he leaves and signs on with the Daidoji or what have you, not only has his lord gotten weaker, but that lord's enemies have gotten stronger. The feedback mechanism has even more momentum behind it now.

The Crab, of course, are a special case because they are doing a job that no one else wants to do- even those that hate them really don't want to see them fail, because they'd have to start taking care of their own garbage for a change.

There are many different systems that could be employed to maintain what could be considered an "ideal" status quo. Each of those systems has certain operating parameters that can bend so far before it breaks. The solution I've seen referenced, although I'm not sure where it's actually printed, is that the Crab are subsidized by the Empire as a whole as a matter of imperial law. Whatever the case may be- and this is the part I care about- the details are raw materials for stories .

If it is the case that there's a set tax applied to all the other clans by the Emperor that's used to subsidize the Crab, that has story implications. It means, for example, that the Crab have a vastly greater stake in the stability of a highly centralized rule that any other clan, Lion included. It spawns great storylines for Yasuki characters who strive for Emerald magistracies just so they can hunt down tax cheats or deadbeats and throw them to the goblins. It means that being a Hiruma is actually a really sweet deal provided that you can find a way to skip out on your service, and that makes for great stories about investigating corrupt patrol units who just turn around 5 minutes into their expeditions and head to the nearest red light district. It means, plausibly, that the Lion clan might start sending larger and more frequent tours of duty to the Wall, in exchange for a tax break, which means opportunities for both alliances and enmities with the Crab. Etc, etc, etc.

Whatever the specifics are, they set up scenarios that GMs and players can exploit for fun and profit, and that, at the end of the day, is what I'm interested in.

Ok, for the case of this particular Hiruma, he would need first to become a Ronin and travel to the Scorpion lands and then get to be recruited by a Bayushi, lots of stuff could happen between these two things. First of all, the Crab could hunt down and execute for desertion this samurai and probably do it publicly to show what happens with soldiers who abandon their posts, now, this samurai is most definitely going to have its soul sent to gaki-do or jigoku and that can be quite the incentive to not do it.

And the Crab keep asking for subsidies from the Emperor all the time.

in the current storyline that is exactly what is happening. Kisada keeps asking for jade and no jade is being sent to them.

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

1 hour ago, robothedino said:

Consider this: We have a young Hiruma, not particularly dis honorable but not the kind of bushido fanatic that Lord of the Seal has been talking about. He wants to be a good samurai, but he'd also like the same things every human being wants: for their children to grow up with full bellies and a bright future, a chance to indulge his personal pursuits, and not to die screaming in the belly of a hellbeast.

Indoctrination : Every Crab is brainwashed from birth to believe they are the only Men with Big Kaiu-Steel Balls and everyone north are useless whelps and fops that lives at their sufferance. They do not shy away from hardship, they wallow in it as the proof of their superiority.

Disassociation : To leave behind your duty is to sever all previous ties with friends and family. This means you will not be allowed at your parents funerals or your siblings weddings. Your friends will shun you, and you will be branded as an oathbreaker until your death.

New Daimyo : To leave your clan is to become ronin. Even in best case scenario, great clan do not just freely hand out joining paper. You have to earn you place, that means years after years of gruesome jobs, like regularly being at the vanguard of every battle. Chances of survival are not good.

And that's for "ordinary" ronin, you are an oathbreaker who willfully leave your lord. Obviously, you are not reliable. You come with a bagage, as nobody will looks kindly to a lord hire oathbreakers. Why would a daimyo bother hire you rather that a simple ronin.

Even if you are a Crab/Hiruma, and know as a fact that you will spend your days at war with the Taint, at least if you stay you know you family and friends will be there and look out for you. You can have a future, a wife, and your children place is assured.

I will not speak about having your oathbreaker soul sent to Jigoku after you die, because given the time you spend in the shadowlands, having your soul sent to Jigoku is always a possibility anyway.

At that's for the Hiruma, who have the shitiest job of all. Of samurai of other clans, it is even more unthinkable.

Comes to think of it, the only reason I can think of for a starving Hiruma to leave its lord would not be to try to find a better, more comfortable life elsewhere (there is no chance of that), but to give a Big Fat Finger to the whole system and become a brigand.

Leave the Crab lands and go away from the hire off your clan. Find a hideout in the northern shinomen forest and rob the scorpion villages. After all, you are a trained scout and warrior, you can survive in the shadowlands so a forest won't be much of a challenge, and better to face a scorpion bushi in battle than a oni. You will not live long, marry and have children, but at least your belly will be full and you will have coin to spare on booze and whores.

2 hours ago, robothedino said:

not the kind of bushido fanatic that Lord of the Seal has been talking about.

FYI, we don't call them "bushido fanatic" but Loud Obnoxious Ignorant Nutcase, or LION for short.

10 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Ok, for the case of this particular Hiruma, he would need first to become a Ronin and travel to the Scorpion lands and then get to be recruited by a Bayushi, lots of stuff could happen between these two things. First of all, the Crab could hunt down and execute for desertion this samurai and probably do it publicly to show what happens with soldiers who abandon their posts, now, this samurai is most definitely going to have its soul sent to gaki-do or jigoku and that can be quite the incentive to not do it.

That's definitely not how it worked in feudal Japan, but I don't think it's how it works in Rokugan, either. The concept of "desertion" being a crime is something that comes from modern armies, where you have a well-organized military police force and a contractual/legal obligation to service. Rokugan has neither. Samurai are, at the end of the day, "at will" day laborers, and they fight for whoever pays the bills. Granted there are powerful cultural mores that incentivize them to stay "in house", but nothing to actually force them to do so. Otherwise, musha shugyo would not be a thing- what lord wants to lose a warrior so they can go on some personal quest of self-discovery that benefits them not at all?

And even if this were the case, it's subject to the dynamics of critical mass I was talking about before. If one Hiruma deserts, sure, you could hunt him down and execute him. If a whole unit of Hiruma desert, you can send another whole unit after them, which means the effective loss of 2 units of Hiruma. Meanwhile the other Hiruma who haven't yet deserted are seeing that their lord is looking desperate, and there's fewer loyalists around to police them, and desertion is looking like a better and better option...

4 minutes ago, robothedino said:

That's definitely not how it worked in feudal Japan, but I don't think it's how it works in Rokugan, either. The concept of "desertion" being a crime is something that comes from modern armies, where you have a well-organized military police force and a contractual/legal obligation to service. Rokugan has neither.

Nope, even in the Middle Ages, they would hunt down deserters, specially of noble birth when they had the chance. Cowardice/Fear is a sin, after all. Besides, there’s the whole jigoku/gaki-do thing. They have shugenjas who can call forth ancestor spirits and check it out how they are or even if they reincarnated. And well, in Rokugan, you do have a military police of sorts and a contractual/legal obligation to serve.

I’m really enjoying this discussion but I feel that every time we present a fact of why X is like this, you just go and move the goalposts.

9 hours ago, Lord of the Seal said:

a bunch of stuff

You are, of course, welcome to your interpretation of the setting. I personally think you are mistaking the ideal of the samurai for the reality . That said, the point about family ties is a good one- it is at least one real reason to stick with an otherwise insufferable situation, up to a point .

Putting aside all these debates about the finer points of "realism" or what have you, is there printed material on the nitty-gritty of Hiruma lifestyles? Answers to basic questions, like:

Where do these guys even live? I don't mean active-duty scouts/soldiers, but the families that are making little Hiruma babies to throw over the wall in a few years? They can't all be in barracks on the Wall.

What about the Hiruma daimyo himself? Where does he hold court, and what are his daily duties, given that he's not administering any lands, and probably isn't entertaining too many guests?

If they're not concentrated into any geographical area, how do the Hiruma maintain their family identity? What stops them from just sort of bleeding into the families that are housing and feeding them? (I know they have their own history and legacy, yadda yadda, but these things have to be transmitted in some kind of organized fashion, or they'll tend to decay)

I want to be able to get a sense of what the full "life cycle" is for a typical Hiruma, basically. Can someone point me to the right sourcebook for the job?

4 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Nope, even in the Middle Ages, they would hunt down deserters, specially of noble birth when they had the chance. Cowardice/Fear is a sin, after all.

I'd love to see a source on that if you have one- I've seen lots to the contrary, but of course, "the Middle Ages" is a broad swath of time and space that's not going to be uniform, so I'm sure this was true in at least some cases. Bear in mind here we're not talking about "running away from battle to hide in a corner", we're talking about signing up with a different team.

4 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

I’m really enjoying this discussion but I feel that every time we present a fact of why X is like this, you just go and move the goalposts.

My goalposts, I think, have not changed, but are still being misread. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the printed material is "wrong", I'm trying to elicit help in adapting it to my own needs as a GM. It seems to me that this isn't an endeavor in which there's great interest, which is fine- no one is obligated to do my thinking for me. It's just a friendly request to which "You're out of luck here, try a different game" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

18 hours ago, robothedino said:

That is exactly the question- and if you take the word "daimyo" in its RW sense, the answer is "sovereignty over productive land". A daimyo-level family taxes the peasantry, kicks up to the emperor, and goes to war when called upon by whoever their liege is.

A vassal family, to my thinking, holds no land- they have a name of their own as a mark of status, and perhaps certain privileges not afforded to others, but do not own land and are dependent on the stipends offered by a daimyo. Perhaps this is stated as otherwise somewhere in the last 20 years or whatever it is of L5R material, but that's how I've always read the distinction between those two terms.

That's not the case in Rokugan. Vassal families do hold land - Kyotei Castle, for example, was the holding of the Damask no Akodo, and is now the holding of the Tsume no Doji, both vassal families.

1 hour ago, robothedino said:

I'd love to see a source on that if you have one- I've seen lots to the contrary, but of course, "the Middle Ages" is a broad swath of time and space that's not going to be uniform, so I'm sure this was true in at least some cases. Bear in mind here we're not talking about "running away from battle to hide in a corner", we're talking about signing up with a different team.

Top of my head the Anarchy in early 12th century in England and Akechi Mitsuhide betrayal of Oda Nobunaga, although I'll grant that could be considered more of a coup d'état than a change of allegiance, but I guess it could still under the purview of this discussion.

1 hour ago, robothedino said:

My goalposts, I think, have not changed, but are still being misread. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the printed material is "wrong", I'm trying to elicit help in adapting it to my own needs as a GM. It seems to me that this isn't an endeavor in which there's great interest, which is fine- no one is obligated to do my thinking for me. It's just a friendly request to which "You're out of luck here, try a different game" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

Ok, it just seems that people presented enough valid points to your questions and you keep asking for more arguments. It might not be sufficient for you, which I think it's fair but in that case, yeah, if you want to play something similar to Sengoku, just take a look at GURPS and GURPS Japan and they have more than enough information on how to run a campaign in feudal Japan.

2 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Top of my head the Anarchy in early 12th century in England and Akechi Mitsuhide betrayal of Oda Nobunaga, although I'll grant that could be considered more of a coup d'état than a change of allegiance, but I guess it could still under the purview of this discussion.

Ok, it just seems that people presented enough valid points to your questions and you keep asking for more arguments. It might not be sufficient for you, which I think it's fair but in that case, yeah, if you want to play something similar to Sengoku, just take a look at GURPS and GURPS Japan and they have more than enough information on how to run a campaign in feudal Japan.

Sengoku RPG and the old Bushido RPG as well.

For the OP @robothedino one of the biggest caveats about L5R is that it is the fantastical idealised version of the Samurai and fuedal Japan. It's not meant to be representative of anything factual or accurate. So you won't find that accuracy or realism in the game.

I hack the crap out of the setting to make it more "realistic" in some senses. Changes it quite alot though.

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

That's definitely not how it worked in feudal Japan

My academic knowledge of historical Japan is lacking, so I will take your word on that.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

but I don't think it's how it works in Rokugan, either.

Desertion have never been stated to be a major problem in rokugan. The main source of lore we have on the subject is the various books on ronin.

This is the whole point of my post. It is established in lore that there is no mass desertion (except maybe the Yasuki), yet you raised a valid question about why wouldn't a hiruma desert. I tried to provide you with a reasonable in-setting explanation.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

The concept of "desertion" being a crime is something that comes from modern armies, where you have a well-organized military police force and a contractual/legal obligation to service.

As I said, I am not the history expert around here, and you might want to check this with more learned people around such a Diogo Salazar, but IIRC the roman legion had very harsh punishement for deserter, they had a "military police" and a "contractual obligation" and that was more than 2000 years ago.

Also you might have a "modern thinking" bias. For desertion to be punished, you do not need a parliement, a judge, a lawyer, a warrant or whatever. You just need to bash the head of anyone who try to leave. That have been around for quite some time.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

Rokugan has neither.

Actually samurai do swear featly to their daimyo on gempukku, so yes, there is a binding contract.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

Samurai are, at the end of the day, "at will" day laborers, and they fight for whoever pays the bills.

Ronin are "at will day laborers". The common samurai is a sworn vassal.

By the way, just a question, if I am wrong and samurai are "at will day laborers", what is the difference between a samurai vassal and a ronin ?

Why do a lord even bother with vassal in the first place ?

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

Granted there are powerful cultural mores that incentivize them to stay "in house"

Yep.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

but nothing to actually force them to do so.

How about having your head chopped off ?

The lion clan and the imperial legions don't fight wars on foreign lands. They are internal security forces.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

And even if this were the case, it's subject to the dynamics of critical mass I was talking about before.

Preventing it to reach critical mass, is a good reason for the "power that be" to come down hard on anyone who doesn't "fall in line".

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

is there printed material on the nitty-gritty of Hiruma lifestyles?

I am not an expert on history but I have played RPG for decades. "nitty-gritty" isn't a big thing in RPG, it is a GAME. There is no "Amazing Accountant RPG" or Garbage collector RPG".

By the way, I was looking for a deckplan for a YT transport for Star Wars game on the internet. They all have guns, but many of them don't have toilets, showers or bunks.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

I'm trying to elicit help in adapting it to my own needs as a GM.

Helping each other and sharing ideas is the point of these boards, however you have to remember that rokugan IS NOT medieval Japan.

17 hours ago, robothedino said:

It's all built on their ability to get the masses to agree that, all things considered, things are better working for this guy than that guy.

To a degree, yes. But at the same time, samurai are essentially multi-generation military families; even if you have the legal right to (Which samurai nominally don't), the social pressure against the next generation going "screw it, I'm moving to Vegas to manage a bar" is huge. When the rest of the family - and by extension the clan - is going to reject your decision, and you actively need your lords permission to leave.

Note that a musha shugyo is by agreement only, and also note that since you don't really own anything, not only do you need your Lord's permission to leave but you'd also need their permission to take anything up to and including the clothes on your back.

Making it to Kyuden Bayushi is a pretty tall order in and of itself.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

I'd love to see a source on that if you have one- I've seen lots to the contrary, but of course, "the Middle Ages" is a broad swath of time and space that's not going to be uniform, so I'm sure this was true in at least some cases. Bear in mind here we're not talking about "running away from battle to hide in a corner", we're talking about signing up with a different team.

It depends on whether you're talking about mercenary common soldiers (who did change sides a lot), or feudal vassals. The latter changing sides did happen, but was inevitably a huge betrayal and often led to ostracism from a family.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

I'm trying to elicit help in adapting it to my own needs as a GM. It seems to me that this isn't an endeavor in which there's great interest, which is fine- no one is obligated to do my thinking for me. It's just a friendly request to which "You're out of luck here, try a different game" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

I'm perfectly happy to help, but in my case I'm trying to get what you're after.

6 hours ago, robothedino said:

Where do these guys even live? I don't mean active-duty scouts/soldiers, but the families that are making little Hiruma babies to throw over the wall in a few years? They can't all be in barracks on the Wall.

What about the Hiruma daimyo himself? Where does he hold court, and what are his daily duties, given that he's not administering any lands, and probably isn't entertaining too many guests?

If they're not concentrated into any geographical area, how do the Hiruma maintain their family identity? What stops them from just sort of bleeding into the families that are housing and feeding them? (I know they have their own history and legacy, yadda yadda, but these things have to be transmitted in some kind of organized fashion, or they'll tend to decay)

The Hiruma daimyo is a she, at the moment. She doesn't hold court per se; obviously she meets advisors and discusses policy, but she doesn't hold 'court' because her court is Shiro Hiruma and that's "unavailable at the moment".

She does manage the movement, placement and advancement of Hiruma samurai just like any family daimyo - even if they're 'attached' to a different Lord's forces or castle, they're her vassals, not theirs. The way "administrative" regiments work is a good way to think about it - an AA vehicle company almost never deploys as a company: instead, batteries or individual vehicles are attached to other formations: the company exists for logistics, administration and pastoral roles but the commander rarely sees their nominal units in person.

Day to day life in 'real' Crab Lands.

This is how /I'd/ run it. I enjoy trying to make 'realistic' or at least physically and emotionally feasible the setting of Rokugan. I'm not saying this is how Japan is OR how Rokugan is. This is how I'd do it.

Despite propaganda to the contrary, only a little over half the samurai caste of the Crab Clan are active bushi. There are those raised frankly to be homemakers, courtiers, local magistrates, artisans, etc, just like in every other clan. These non-active bushi are generally married to those on active duty on the wall, and are tasked with looking after Crab lands, raising children,and performing their non-bushi functions. They are also in regular training, and can be called to the wall in emergencies, but generally are not. They live in villages and towns, many of which are very far from the wall and across crab lands, that are similar to the villages in most other clans.

Deployment to the Wall or into the Shadowlands...active duty...occurs in long sustained shifts: 6 weeks or 2 months on, 3-4 weeks off, less if the situation on the wall gets bad.

A common life pattern is for a child to be born in one of these villages far from the wall. They were conceived when their active-duty parent is on 'home leave', and that is generally the only time they see them. In modern times, when the situation on the wall is bad, that might not be very often. They grow up in the town, which is only generally under the dominion of one family or another, but samurai of many different families can be within the same town, and the children generally train together in similar dojos or learn from their non-duty parent when not deployed. If they are exceptional, they might earn the attention of a sensei who travels around to all the local village dojos, looking for exceptional children who can be scouted for the great colleges of the clan, like the Hida War College or similar schools. Others might be content with what they have learned from their parents.

Once the child has passed their gempukku, they too are assigned their duties, usually on the wall, or scouting in the Shadowlands. Until they are married, their own 'leaves' are particularly short, and their unit on their wall becomes their new family. They live, sleep, and eat together, and when they rest, it will be generally only in the small 'villages' of pleasure district made for the purpose that surround the foot of the wall at some points, or for the more rare visit home to their mother. This period of living on the wall as a family is an almost universal experience among most of the Crab.

After a marriage is arranged, generally to a non-bushi, the new family is given or perhaps inherit a home in a village far from the wall. But even though they are married, their bonds with their units are already established, as is the rhythm of a life spent mostly at war. They look forward to returning to their spouse, and it is generally considered healthy for them to go, but their 'work' is the Wall.

It is possible for a Hiruma, for example, to want to give up a life on the wall that would seem almost unbearable, and love, indeed, might inspire them to do it. I'm sure there are plenty of tragic stories of young people who abandon their comrades on the wall to spend more time with their beloved. But there are also many, many stories of the new wife who is secretly a demoness who is intentionally luring their spouse away from their duties to make the wall fall and bringing them both to a bad end. So no partner would want to be 'that oni' luring their partner away, and no bushi would want to be the one who abandoned their comrades for something as foolish as love. And if a bushi did do so in the end? Does it truly matter to the Crab why a samurai bailed on his comrades on the wall instead of serving with them as they should? It's better for morale for all to believe that 'an oni seduced him'. And there are certainly Kuni out there who will make sure everyone knows that is what happened. That way it is unlikely to happen again.

Anyway, that's how I'd do it.

6 minutes ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Ronin are "at will day laborers". The common samurai is a sworn vassal.

By the way, just a question, if I am wrong and samurai are "at will day laborers", what is the difference between a samurai vassal and a ronin ?

Why do a lord even bother with vassal in the first place ?

No, you're correct. In fact, arguably the ronin are 'contracted' mercenaries - that is, even their ability to legally up sticks and leave is constrained by the terms of their service: it might be day-by-day but it might be " for the campaign".

Of course, a Lord who needed ronin is probably shy of 'proper' vassals so may be short of the ability to compel a ronin who can see the writing on the wall and doesn't want to still be around when the Iron Crane/Shiotome/Thunder Sohei/whatever reach them....

35 minutes ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

As I said, I am not the history expert around here, and you might want to check this with more learned people around such a Diogo Salazar, but IIRC the roman legion had very harsh punishement for deserter, they had a "military police" and a "contractual obligation" and that was more than 2000 years ago.

Also you might have a "modern thinking" bias. For desertion to be punished, you do not need a parliement, a judge, a lawyer, a warrant or whatever. You just need to bash the head of anyone who try to leave. That have been around for quite some time.

The Roman legions are a bad comparison because they, despite being further back in time, are much closer to a modern political structure than the entities that came after them. They had the concepts of citizenship, rule of law, and their soldiers were drawn from the general population and advanced through merit, more or less. In all these respects, they are a lot closer to modern Western nations than feudal warrior aristocracies, and that's exactly why they had to worry about things like desertion- because their soldiery wasn't primarily fighting for personal spoils (although of course there was some of that mixed in, on an ad hoc basis).

35 minutes ago, Lord of the Seal said:

a bunch of other stuff

You and I just have different ideas about what is fun, interesting, and plausible- there's nothing wrong with either of our viewpoints but I don't see any good chance of either of us getting much mileage out of the other's take on anything. Thanks for taking the time though.

52 minutes ago, KakitaKaori said:

Some great stuff

Anyone who doesn't get what I'm interested in still, this is it. Thanks very kindly- I'll circle back later to read it closely and respond, but that's precisely the sort of "bottom up" approach I'm trying to dig up. I particularly like the bit about "t he new wife who is secretly a demoness"- this is something that fits my criteria of "plausible in terms of basic human motivations". Let me get back to you on that with a proper reply later!