[After submitting this, I realized it would probably be better suited to the House Rules subforum. Admin, feel free to move it there and remove this bracketed comment.]

So, in RAW, the Isawa Elementalist has access to Fire Invocations at Rank 1, Water at Rank 2, Air at Rank 3, Earth at Rank 4, and Fire again at Rank 5.

In the lore (and I'm going mostly from pre-FFG L5R here... I know some things have changed, and I'm not fully caught up on all of that), the Isawa were pretty much masters of all the Elements, so it does make sense that through their career, they get access to Invocations from each of the non-Void Elements.

However, in your opinion, would it be game-breaking in any way to allow a player to choose the order they access the Elements, providing they follow the same pattern? For example, a player might want Water spells at Rank 1, then Earth at 2, Fire at 3, and Air at 4, which would then mean Water again at Rank 5.

I do see that some of the other Invocations that they gain access to listed by name at each rank somewhat compensates by providing a few spells of other Elements.

I'm new to this version of the game, and it just doesn't look like the Isawa have quite the versatility that I imagine them having, at least not until they're pretty well-experienced. Am I wrong? I'm eager to hear thoughts.

On 3/21/2020 at 5:51 PM, maybecedarian said:

[After submitting this, I realized it would probably be better suited to the House Rules subforum. Admin, feel free to move it there and remove this bracketed comment.]

So, in RAW, the Isawa Elementalist has access to Fire Invocations at Rank 1, Water at Rank 2, Air at Rank 3, Earth at Rank 4, and Fire again at Rank 5.

In the lore (and I'm going mostly from pre-FFG L5R here... I know some things have changed, and I'm not fully caught up on all of that), the Isawa were pretty much masters of all the Elements, so it does make sense that through their career, they get access to Invocations from each of the non-Void Elements.

However, in your opinion, would it be game-breaking in any way to allow a player to choose the order they access the Elements, providing they follow the same pattern? For example, a player might want Water spells at Rank 1, then Earth at 2, Fire at 3, and Air at 4, which would then mean Water again at Rank 5.

I do see that some of the other Invocations that they gain access to listed by name at each rank somewhat compensates by providing a few spells of other Elements.

I'm new to this version of the game, and it just doesn't look like the Isawa have quite the versatility that I imagine them having, at least not until they're pretty well-experienced. Am I wrong? I'm eager to hear thoughts.

Wouldn't be too problematic IMO.

So no, swapping up the order probably doesn't hurt anything, but it's also probably not required either. The thing to remember when looking at a curriculum chart, those are not the only techniques you can buy. An Isawa can buy any Invocation (they qualify for), they only get full XP credit for their school ranks if they buy from the table, thus this speeds them along their school progression better. They can be as versatile as you like, but the nature of things is to rotate through in order to progress the school. Considering Togashi Monks have the same pattern (only they end on Void, because Kiho) I'm guessing the elemental pattern is intentional.

I don't think it matters much, you can still learn a Fire Rank 2 Invocation once you reach Rank 2 if you want to, it's just going to contribute 2xp to your rank advancement instead of 3xp.

And it's not like previous editions where the schools had a preferred Ring and casting spells from the opposite Ring (ignoring Ishiken) would give you a penalty to cast and learn those of the opposite Ring.

10 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

I don't think it matters much, you can still learn a Fire Rank 2 Invocation once you reach Rank 2 if you want to, it's just going to contribute 2xp to your rank advancement instead of 3xp.

This. You can buy any invocation your rank qualifies you for at any school rank. Don't feel like you must stick to the school curriculum - If you do, for example, you'd never be able to buy ring increases...

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

This. You can buy any invocation your rank qualifies you for at any school rank. Don't feel like you must stick to the school curriculum - If you do, for example, you'd never be able to buy ring increases...

Which is interesting, considering that from 1st to 4th editions, Rings, specially in Ranks 1 and 2, were the best, quickest way of going through rank advancement.

1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Which is interesting, considering that from 1st to 4th editions, Rings, specially in Ranks 1 and 2, were the best, quickest way of going through rank advancement.

I think with rings being so much wider in application now (especially in conflict scenes), increasing rings is a bit too much of a panacea. In the first version of the beta, rings were in curricula at every rank. They were subsequently removed because they were just too easy a choice.

Also - the Genesys/Star Wars system, by comparison, almost doesn't let you increase base stats at all - you have to complete a career to get a +1 to a single stat.....

I do hope to see a Tensai school or Title in the forthcoming Phoenix book.

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

Usually there is just one school per clan per book, so I hope they make a Tensai school so we can have a Elemental Guard title.

I kinda miss the Firestorm Legion, such a nice and polite bunch of pyromaniacs.

They used to incinerate my ghuls wholesale, but they where always so courteous and considerate about it.

See you in the Sands.

1 hour ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

Usually there is just one school per clan per book, so I hope they make a Tensai school so we can have a Elemental Guard title.

I kinda miss the Firestorm Legion, such a nice and polite bunch of pyromaniacs.

They used to incinerate my ghuls wholesale, but they where always so courteous and considerate about it.

See you in the Sands.

Crane did get two in Courts of Stone, and the Unicorn got 0, so I don't know if we can identify a "usually" out of two books.

That said I absolutely want an Elemental Guard title! I think the Titles would allow for single-element focus better than a full school would, so both Guard and Tensai could be titles. We're probably going to get Chikai as a title as well.

On 3/26/2020 at 5:22 PM, Diogo Salazar said:

I don't think it matters much, you can still learn a Fire Rank 2 Invocation once you reach Rank 2 if you want to, it's just going to contribute 2xp to your rank advancement instead of 3xp.

And it's not like previous editions where the schools had a preferred Ring and casting spells from the opposite Ring (ignoring Ishiken) would give you a penalty to cast and learn those of the opposite Ring.

Actually, I was kind of thinking for house rule, advancement of invocations might be tied to the ring. Hence Your highest Ring would give the highest access(school rank +1 invocations). Now, as you say, it would be crass to prevent players from accessing opposition element, but I can totally see their lowest ring of the four elements being their weakest(school rank-1 invocations). The idea being that it is an incentive to raise all of your rings to achieve the widest access. Or you could specialize first, then branch out to the others. One immediate problem is that having floater values for the invocation access is very powerful and would likely unbalance the advancement and power level of Phoenix Elementalist characters.

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

46 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Crane did get two in Courts of Stone, and the Unicorn got 0, so I don't know if we can identify a "usually" out of two books.

Oopsy, my mistake.

47 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

That said I absolutely want an Elemental Guard title! I think the Titles would allow for single-element focus better than a full school would, so both Guard and Tensai could be titles. We're probably going to get Chikai as a title as well.

The use of title for single element specialist make sense.

Speaking of Elemental Guard, do you think we will have a bushi title for their elemental legions buddies.

22 minutes ago, neilcell said:

Actually, I was kind of thinking for house rule, advancement of invocations might be tied to the ring. Hence Your highest Ring would give the highest access(school rank +1 invocations). Now, as you say, it would be crass to prevent players from accessing opposition element, but I can totally see their lowest ring of the four elements being their weakest(school rank-1 invocations). The idea being that it is an incentive to raise all of your rings to achieve the widest access. Or you could specialize first, then branch out to the others. One immediate problem is that having floater values for the invocation access is very powerful and would likely unbalance the advancement and power level of Phoenix Elementalist characters.

It could be done and it can make sense, however 5th edition shugenja are more generalist than specialist. So I don't know how this would fit in the 5th lore about shugenja.

Maybe we should wait and see what the Phoenix book have to say about it.

It may also be relevant that, at far as I know, there are no equivalent in 5th to the 4th advantages Friendly Kami and Friend of the Elements. These advantages have make very powerful specialist shugenja back in 4th.

See you in the Sands.

It depends on what you mean by "game breaking". What your house rule would do, as others have mentioned, would be allowing your players to "fine tune" their school rank a little more. They could either choose an element they want to buy invocations for in order to advance in school rank slightly faster, or they could choose an element they don't plan on buying in order to keep the same school rank slightly longer. The most important use of school rank though, is that it's meant to help the GM decide how dangerous a character's enemies/challenges should be. As long as the GM is tailoring the challenges with the "fine tuned" school curriculum in mind, it shouldn't be "game breaking". On the other hand, if you have multiple shugenja PC's, remember that not all shugenja even have invocations in their curriculum at every level. This house rule could effect the balance between PC's. Also, Isawa get access to all 4 elements, but would an Agasha, for example, be able to add air invocations to their curriculum with your house rule? Or is it limited to elements that are already in curriculum?

Whatever the decision mechanically, keep in mind that the school curriculums are meant to give the schools and characters from those schools some flavor. The Isawa skill starts teaching students the basics of dealing with fire kami very early, while their masters are still there to watch and help clean up mistakes. The Isawa then works on the basics until his training is almost over, where he finally starts practicing fire mastery. This is meant to show the Isawa's very purposeful, careful methods. It doesn't mean that the Isawa consider fire to be the "most powerful" element.. rather it means that they get tired of their libraries burning down because students are trying to use fire invocations without proper training, so they make sure their students understand the dangers of fire early on and they teach mastery of fire late, after their students have completely learned the basics. Also keep in mind that these are the schools curriculum, but extra-curricular activities are expected and appreciated. These aren't supposed to be the only things a character studies, but they're supposed to be easier to learn because the school is practiced in teaching this way.