I'm having some issues about hierarchy:
-How the power of Emperor's Chosen work in Rokugan> I can command who? , What powers do i have?
-Being an Imperial Advisor for exemple>I can demand from Crane samurai? , How my powers/status work in Clans, Imperial F amilies and other Emperor's Chosen?
Thank you all
Is there something with an existing hierarchy that we could use as a comparison to help explain it? For example, are you familiar with military structures, or possibly corporate, or even just a large office?
Fundamentally, it's based on Status (which, in the role playing game, is a numeric value. In the setting, it's obviously just one's station). So, the hierarchy would generally go:
-Emperor
-Emerald Champion
-Chancellor (who has authority in matters related to operating the Imperial Court) and Imperial Advisor
-The Great Clans and Imperial Families
-The Minor Clans
Now, one thing I hasten to add is that this gives the impression that the Great Clans are "subordinate" to, say, the Emerald Champion or the Advisor. This is where the nice, linear progression downward gets complicated. Yes, the Emerald Champion is of higher status than a Great Clan Champion. And, yes, in matters that were of Imperial interest, such as an invasion of the Empire from outside, for example, the EC would have a standing of "first among equals" with the Great Clan Champions. But otherwise, no, the Emerald Champion (or Advisor, or Chancellor) do not actually have authority over the Great Clan Champions. Likewise, the subordination of a Minor Clan Champion to a Great Clan Champion is...complicated. They should be subordinate...but generally aren't. Particularly in their specific duty (for example, hunting spirits, for the Falcon Clan), they're much closer to equals to Great Clan Champions.
This is the general approach to it that I use in terms of portraying characters, anyway.
10 hours ago, ADGabriel said:-How the power of Emperor's Chosen work in Rokugan
Who are you calling "the Emperor's Chosen" - I've heard that phrase attached to Minor Clan champions (i.e. those picked for the role by the Emperor rather than descended from the Kami) and also for the various Imperial roles (Chancellor, Advisor, Herald, etc).
8 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:Now, one thing I hasten to add is that this gives the impression that the Great Clans are "subordinate" to, say, the Emerald Champion or the Advisor. This is where the nice, linear progression downward gets complicated. Yes, the Emerald Champion is of higher status than a Great Clan Champion. And, yes, in matters that were of Imperial interest, such as an invasion of the Empire from outside, for example, the EC would have a standing of "first among equals" with the Great Clan Champions. But otherwise, no, the Emerald Champion (or Advisor, or Chancellor) do not actually have authority over the Great Clan Champions.
Indeed. A lot of it is what context you're talking to them in.
The Emerald Champion has a bunch of different 'hats'.
The Imperial Advisor specifically? Probably doesn't have much actual power. They're an advisor, after all. But - this being Rokugan - don't mistake power and lack of power for influence and lack of influence. Since they're speaking to the Emperor on a daily basis, and have a degree of informal control over their schedule and what reports and letters they actually see, they can shape the Emperor's decision-making process a huge amount.
10 hours ago, ADGabriel said:I can demand from Crane samurai?
Per se, no. You can't just walk in and say " I'm imperial advisor, give me all your stuff " and expect that to stick.
But, if you can arrange for the Imperials to need some stuff - let's say, as part of the Emperor's Blessing (a sort of tax relief/disaster relief/economic investment bundle the Emperor distributes to one clan each year), and tell the Emperor " I'll go arrange the Crane's contribution for you ", then the Crane don't necessarily know that only 75% of your demands are actually the Emperor's and the rest will be conveniently.....'lost'....before it ever ends up on the Otomo's ledgers. Getting caught out will have consequences but presumably you'd be trying to make sure that didn't happen.
Likewise, you can assume the Crane want something from the Emperor, because everyone always wants something from the Emperor. Promising to draw their specific attention to the Crane's problems over whatever else was on the list for the day (or to make sure you don't do the reverse ) is definitely grounds for....not a 'bribe' , because that would be crass. But a 'gift' , certainly.
8 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:Likewise, the subordination of a Minor Clan Champion to a Great Clan Champion is...complicated. They should be subordinate...but generally aren't. Particularly in their specific duty (for example, hunting spirits, for the Falcon Clan), they're much closer to equals to Great Clan Champions.
The Great Clan champions are higher status, but in addition to status (which is social 'rank' and determines who has to 'sama' whom and generally whose opinion gets to be treated as correct), there's also the fealty 'chain of command' to consider. You're required to be courteous and sincere and so on to anyone above you in the celestial order, but duty runs specifically down the chain of command.
A random lion ji-samurai would be expected to bow to the Crab Clan champion (a lot!), but not to take their orders. At least, not those which run contrary to their commander's orders, anyway, even if said commander is just a Lion vassal samurai. Of course, Kisada-ue is at liberty to go to said commander (or their commander, or their commander) and say " tell your minions to help me " and there might be serious repercussions if he didn't.
The Emperor sits at the top of the feudal pyramid. All the Clan Champions (minor and major) are theoretically the Emperor's direct vassals. Some are higher status than others (the Great Clans), but it's like having a higher ranking officer who's not in your chain of command; an Air Force captain and an Army general, for example; there are limits to how much you can compel their direct obedience.
Edited by Magnus Grendel
The Emperor's chosen https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Emperor's_Chosen
they have each a field as you can see it in my file at the bottom of this message, and can order those who are in the same category as them as the Emperor's representative. Outside of that field, they get respect from people based on their status, and as members of their clan can order their lower status kinsmen based on what their clan want to offer as support to their position... people from outside their field of power will act based on the favors they can get.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19XhI7NVc2ZbX4vIW-NgO4ImX8Sdux2y1
9 hours ago, okuma said:The Emperor's chosen https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Emperor's_Chosen
Fair enough. I've seen the same phrase used for the tournament of the minor clans.
Same name, different meaning, the tournament was a one-time use of the name.
Minor detail, but isn't the Ruby champion the sensei to the Emperor's kids? I thought that was rather the point of that position...
What else do they do, if not that?
1 hour ago, Myrion said:Minor detail, but isn't the Ruby champion the sensei to the Emperor's kids? I thought that was rather the point of that position...
What else do they do, if not that?
They're the understudy to the Emerald Champion; 'professional' permanent secretary to the Emerald Champion's 'politically appointee' minister.
All theological rubbish aside, you become Emerald Champion soley and simply by winning an iaijutsu contest .
All well and good, and very relevant given your roll as the Emperor's yojimbo, but not in any way guaranteeing you have any meaningful judicial knowledge or competence as a battlefield commander or tutor. The Emerald Champion picks the Ruby Champion (or more normally inherits one from the previous Emerald Champion), normally from the ranks of the Emerald Magistrature, theoretically based on their own honest assessment of their weaknesses.
Normally, the Ruby Champion is expected to be an expert on Rokugani Lore, because most of the time they're the day-to-day commander and chief sensei of the Emerald Magistrates and castellan of Shiro Yogasha, allowing the Emerald Champion to spend time at court where problems tend to pop up, but in practice their job is " whatever their respective Emerald Champion isn't very good at ."
Agasha Sumiko is a competent instructor (hence her Expert in the Dojo ability) but she's only been instructing the princes because Wildcats and Dragon's Teeth occurs after Doji Satsume's death, and she's 'Acting Emerald Champion'. Note that Hantei Sotorii makes reference to 'Satsume-sensei' and in Children of Bushido it's him who turns up, not Sumiko, to invigilate the 'duel'.
Edited by Magnus Grendel
And the Hantei children have been mostly trained by the Kakita in the original storyline, so the Ruby champion not always being a Crane make it less likely he trained them, at least, for the combat skills.
3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:They're the understudy to the Emerald Champion; 'professional' permanent secretary to the Emerald Champion's 'politically appointee' minister.
All theological rubbish aside, you become Emerald Champion soley and simply by winning an iaijutsu contest .
Maybe it changed with the reboot, but remind me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Emerald Championship done by first testing the candidates in jurisprudence and government and then, for the ones that didn't fail, they would go into iaijutsu duels until there can be only one? (hopefully with no beheading)
1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:Maybe it changed with the reboot, but remind me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Emerald Championship done by first testing the candidates in jurisprudence and government and then, for the ones that didn't fail, they would go into iaijutsu duels until there can be only one? (hopefully with no beheading)
We don't know for definite - the only part of the Emerald Tournament seen being the final Iai duel ( The Bright Flame Of The World's Glory cuts from a week before to the final) - but the fiction only talks about 'duels' and frankly, if jurisprudence, diplomacy and the law were important topics, I really don't see Bayushi Aramoro being a finalist....
it’s not like the Scorpion could have cheated so Aramoro would know the answers beforehand.
And like I said, this was the old timeline, for sure there were jurisprudence tests.
In this version the scorpion did cheat - or tried to. But we see what and when they did so, because (rather unfortunately for her) Kachiko decided to use Bayushi Yojiro to 'fix' the tournament, and he had his own ideas about what that meant.
As noted, we don't see the tournament itself, but both before and after people only ever refer to 'duels'.
There's no mention of any sort of qualifying examination as per the Topaz championship.
There's certainly no more detail about the tournament in Emerald Empire, and the core rulebook only says " the Emerald Champion, is chosen in a ceremonial tournament—a series of duels against the other candidates ." (page 306 sidebar)
It is mentioned in the previous edition that the Emerald Champion knows about law many times and that the clans only send their best... it makes sense that the candidates wouldn't be total morons in the fields they are going to represent the Emperor for. Because even with good advisors, a basic understanding is required.
1 hour ago, okuma said:it makes sense that the candidates wouldn't be total morons in the fields they are going to represent the Emperor for
Agreed. And no clan would want the dishonour of producing an incompetent Emerald Champion. But no-one can - in practice - simultaneously be an expert at everything, and knowing your limitations and mitigating them is part of the 'point' of the Ruby Champion.