16 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Actually she was doing exactly as ordered. She and her superiors knew she was going to lose that fight, and couldn't be aware that Shono would be the one leading the force as that was a last minute decision that his mother made after he insisted on being the one to face Mitsuko. But the Ikoma Historian who was present saw she did all as she was ordered and acted with honor.

Yeah, this would be pretty much Tsanuri's angle in the argument. One side would argue that Mitsuko slipped up against Shono and accomplishing her order is not an excuse for this kind of failure. The other side would defend Mitsuko by pointing out that she knew exactly what she was doing, and her killing Shono was simply not an option.

I think this would nicely show the depth Bushido has, that it is not just Duty vs Honor but there are other considerations too, and seemingly dishonorable things can be the signs of true honor. Like, you know, Matsu Tsuko going off the hooks or an apparently unnecessary war with the Unicorn. Bushido is more than that, and those who think it is just self-important people blindly following terrible orders are idiots (take that Daisetsu!).

Then your point would tick off Tsanuri in the end too, as she starts wondering how many honorable samurai must die "doing exactly as ordered" and whether this is actually the most Lion-y way to send your enemies in the clan to their death because it is essentially foolproof and it takes a nitpicky Ikoma Historian playing devil's advocate to find a crack in it.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, this would be pretty much Tsanuri's angle in the argument. One side would argue that Mitsuko slipped up against Shono and accomplishing her order is not an excuse for this kind of failure. The other side would defend Mitsuko by pointing out that she knew exactly what she was doing, and her killing Shono was simply not an option.

I think this would nicely show the depth Bushido has, that it is not just Duty vs Honor but there are other considerations too, and seemingly dishonorable things can be the signs of true honor. Like, you know, Matsu Tsuko going off the hooks or an apparently unnecessary war with the Unicorn. Bushido is more than that, and those who think it is just self-important people blindly following terrible orders are idiots (take that Daisetsu!).

Then your point would tick off Tsanuri in the end too, as she starts wondering how many honorable samurai must die "doing exactly as ordered" and whether this is actually the most Lion-y way to send your enemies in the clan to their death because it is essentially foolproof and it takes a nitpicky Ikoma Historian playing devil's advocate to find a crack in it.

Except that its an irrelevant conversation as (a) Tsanuri had nothing to do with the original situation as Mitsuko answered to Matsu Gohei (likely under the influence of the Ikoma but we don't know that for sure) who she was dispatching her messenger to, and (b) no one should be questioning her actions during the fight.

She refused Shono's challenge to a duel as her orders dictated that she face the Unicorn in battle not single combat, this is not an unheard of for the Lion as at there was a story of a Lion General who when confronted by a Crane Duelist who was trying to use the standard Crane tactic of I challenge you to a duel losers army goes home, accepted and then as the challenged party set the terms of the duel as we fight with our armies. She then fought the superior Unicorn force with her small group of Ashigaru and eventually directly faced Shono when the Lion's position was overrun. When HE tried to retreat from her, back to the Unicorn lines rather then face her, she pursued and cut his horse out from under him to force him to face her directly. She then lost on their direct exchange. She didn't "throw" the fight, he was just faster on the recovery from being thrown from his horse then she was in cutting it down.

There is nothing to question in her actions or her honor in enacting any of them. Your stance seems to be that the Ikoma Librarian should be threatening to throw the whole concept of Bushido as practiced by the Lion out the window (which is actually even more counter intuitive then anything we've seen up to this point) just because he wants to argue with Tsanuri. That's not how the Ikoma work, they twist history and Bushido all the time to justify Lion aggression so if anything the Librarian would be the one arguing for her inclusion as they need her "martyrdom" to justify the war with the Unicorn while Tsanuri would have to be the one questioning her actions. But that doesn't serve the multiple purposes that we got from this story.

In this one story we got an organic confirmation that the Unicorn Lion War is still escalating, the growing sense that there is a conspiracy working in the background of the Ikoma leadership to stoke the aggression between the Lion and Unicorn or the seeds of the possibility that there is something going wrong with the Lion harvest (and if that is the case then with the Crane also being short of resources we are now facing a serious threat of famine across the Empire which could be disastrous), and the first seeds of doubt being planted in Tsanuri that all is not right in Lion high command.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

Except that its an irrelevant conversation as (a) Tsanuri had nothing to do with the original situation as Mitsuko answered to Matsu Gohei (likely under the influence of the Ikoma but we don't know that for sure) who she was dispatching her messenger to, and (b) no one should be questioning her actions during the fight.

In this case, Tsanuri would would be very much connected to Mitsuko and this whole "we shouldn't be questioning this... wait a minute..." would be a major point at the end of the fic.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

She refused Shono's challenge to a duel as her orders dictated that she face the Unicorn in battle not single combat, this is not an unheard of for the Lion as at there was a story of a Lion General who when confronted by a Crane Duelist who was trying to use the standard Crane tactic of I challenge you to a duel losers army goes home, accepted and then as the challenged party set the terms of the duel as we fight with our armies. She then fought the superior Unicorn force with her small group of Ashigaru and eventually directly faced Shono when the Lion's position was overrun. When HE tried to retreat from her, back to the Unicorn lines rather then face her, she pursued and cut his horse out from under him to force him to face her directly. She then lost on their direct exchange. She didn't "throw" the fight, he was just faster on the recovery from being thrown from his horse then she was in cutting it down.

The Lion knows nothing of this because all Lions died in the battle. This is even more obscure information than Mitsuko having personal misgivings about fighting Shono. All the Lion knows for certain is that Mitsuko and Shono were up to marriage, Mitsuko was sent to take a Unicorn village, she took the village with the Crane trick by defeating a prominent Utaku Battle Maiden in a duel to death, then Shono showed up with an army, he fought Mitsuko, and she was killed by him. So yeah, I can see how this can arouse some skepticism from someone who have read his fair share of scandalous stories, like an Ikoma Historian.

It would be also nice to see that the Lion is not some kind of hive mind when it comes to Bushido, and while they are proud to always consider honor their conclusions can be flawed. Really, there just needs to be more to talk about Bushido without the Lions being villains, for a change of pace. Am I asking too much?

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

In this case, Tsanuri would would be very much connected to Mitsuko and this whole "we shouldn't be questioning this... wait a minute..." would be a major point at the end of the fic.

The Lion knows nothing of this because all Lions died in the battle. This is even more obscure information than Mitsuko having personal misgivings about fighting Shono. All the Lion knows for certain is that Mitsuko and Shono were up to marriage, Mitsuko was sent to take a Unicorn village, she took the village with the Crane trick by defeating a prominent Utaku Battle Maiden in a duel to death, then Shono showed up with an army, he fought Mitsuko, and she was killed by him. So yeah, I can see how this can arouse some skepticism from someone who have read his fair share of scandalous stories, like an Ikoma Historian.

It would be also nice to see that the Lion is not some kind of hive mind when it comes to Bushido, and while they are proud to always consider honor their conclusions can be flawed. Really, there just needs to be more to talk about Bushido without the Lions being villains, for a change of pace. Am I asking too much?

You may want to reread the story, we are told that Hosokawa was specifically tasked to observe and make sure that he delivers word of what happened to Mitsuko and her troops to Matsu Gohei after she's had her initial show down with Shono and confirmed to him that she and her troops will not surrender. The only reason anyone would suspect she did anything untoward is because they already had suspicion that she would fail to do her duty, and we have zero evidence that Lion command had any thought about that because to most samurai the idea that she and Shono may have actually fallen in love is so foreign to the reality of must Samurai marriages that her primary purpose for being there to them is to shore up the standing of their claim to ownership of the town as she being one of the wronged parties in the failed marriage is exerting her right to claim territory ceded to the Lion, and yes there may be a possibility that it may throw some of the Unicorn off kilter slightly. Its great that you think you have this brilliant narrative that could have been but the reality of the story we've had up to this point doesn't fit it and getting it to work would require significant reinterpretation of existing events that just takes away from existing space for story in an already limited format.

11 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

if anything the Librarian would be the one arguing for her inclusion as they need her "martyrdom" to justify the war with the Unicorn while Tsanuri would have to be the one questioning her actions.

Indeed. The whole situation is basically a setup; if the Lion had intended to actually hold on to the village they'd have made a much more credible attempt. Not to put too fine a point on it, putting a minimal garrison, a samurai pointedly betrothed to the 'aggressor' clan is pretty much going looking for a "we're the offended party here!".

Frankly, I think most of the Lion Clan do get shown in a fairly positive light. The ones who don't - repeatedly - are the Ikoma, particularly Ujiaki, who seems determined to troll his own clan at every opportunity until things happen as he wants them too, and who has yet to be shown as anything but a conniving politician - which, in the Lion of all clans, should be seen as a pretty major slur.

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 10:52 AM, AtoMaki said:

There is not a whole lot to think about this. A delegation of samurai ride down to the village, tell the villagers that they are seizing the food, they write a letter of exchange about 3760 koku plus whatever they like, they take the food, and it is all done. Not even the tax would make any difference because the letter of exchange covers it just fine. Only the Unicorn lord is screwed because they have to validate the letter on the Lion Clan and that's gonna be a tall order unless they cut their losses, give it directly to the tax collectors and let the Imperials deal with it.

Because those aren't her orders. Her orders from her Daimyo are not 'secure the supplies' but 'take the village' .

Plus, she did send a message in advance ("Toshiro-san, calculate how much we will require for a month. Beiona-san, ready the troops to take the village and send a messenger to the peasants ") telling them exactly what she was planning to take, and they refused to turn it over.

We don't know if the offer included a letter of credit or not. But leaving a letter of credit for that much money assumes she has the permission or authority to do that. Under normal circumstances, maybe (she is a fairly senior officer), but when she's been given a letter directly ordering her to attack, she knows she's lying if she claims to have permission to buy the rice instead.

Note that she's even misrepresenting Ikoma Anzaku's orders to her troops; she talks hurridly over the emissary with something that's NOT an accurate reflection of the content of the letter.

The actual order:

"My lord Anakazu-ue’s command is clear. Take the Unicorn village for supplies."

What Tsanuri tells her officers:

"Lord Anakazu commands—"

"—has asked that we supplement our supplies with those from Onon Village," Tsanuri said, lifting a hand to silence Ayano and keep the peace. The emissary cringed but ceased speaking.

Ultimately, I agree with you. Honourable behaviour would be not charging over a border to another clan's territory when you're not at war and attacking one of their settlements. But the problem here is NOT Tsanuri. The problem is Ikoma Anzaku/Ujiaki because they're directly issuing an order saying " do this arguably dishonourable thing ", and knowing it's arguably dishonourable doesn't make the order, or their authority, go away, or make supplies magically arrive from Lion farmlands.

18 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

tryharding duty is dumb and a samurai must mind all seven tenets at once to do the right thing.

Ultimately, I like the fictions precisely because they're putting tenets in direct opposition to one another. Whilst I - and everyone in the setting - agrees with you, the problem is that most decisions which matter - and the ones which are interesting to read fictions about, don't tend to work like that.

" Do you either:

• Murder the innocent orphans for no reason [Dishonour]
• Not murder the innocent orphans for no reason [Honour] "

Is not a particularly meaningful choice. It's easy to be honourable when there is a 'right answer'. Unfortunately, for most of the protagonists, what they've actually got is a selection of deeply crappy answers, and they're using their personal view of Bushido to try and figure out which is the least crappy.

Which, for the Lion, should in theory be a case of 'tryharding' Honour in preference to the other tenets when they conflict. Note - that's Honour the bushido tenet (Meiyo) rather than 'honour' as in 'Bushido as a whole'. Obviously Bushido as a whole is best but you wouldn't be in this decision-making loop if that was an option!

Meiyo is about doing what the samurai personally sees right regardless of law or custom (such as Tsuko's rebellion, which given that she sees vengeance for Aramoro as the most important thing to do** is in accordance with Meiyo even if it arguably violates a tonne of other tenets) and accepting the consequences of your actions - including for things that may not be your fault (which is arguably what Tsanuri is doing by unilaterally claiming the blame for no-one knowing Onon was a tax farm).

This is probably why some of the Ikoma comes across looking so bad; " manipulating someone else into acting dishonourably " is explicitly given as a violation of Meiyo in the RPG rules and as far as we can see is pretty much 101 in the Ikoma playbook.

* Okay, sorry. Joke. Mitsuko clearly knew exactly what was going to happen.

** Before anyone nit-picks this claim; I'm not saying it necessarily is the most important thing for the Lion to do, but that Matsu Tsuko honestly believes it is.

8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

You may want to reread the story, we are told that Hosokawa was specifically tasked to observe and make sure that he delivers word of what happened to Mitsuko and her troops to Matsu Gohei after she's had her initial show down with Shono and confirmed to him that she and her troops will not surrender.

I assume the Ikoma girl did not make it? I did not forget her, but AFAIK everyone from Mitsuko's force died. I might be wrong but I thought this was intentional for the same reason I would use it: so that the truth about Mitsuko can be obscure for future developments, since Shono spends something like an entire page angsting over her in the Unicorn novella.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Plus, she did send a message in advance ("Toshiro-san, calculate how much we will require for a month. Beiona-san, ready the troops to take the village and send a messenger to the peasants ") telling them exactly what she was planning to take, and they refused to turn it over.

She sent a messenger to warn the villagers about the impending takeover, not a diplomatic delegation, there is no talk about taking the supplies peacefully. That is, kind of strange, considering how Tsanuri does find her inner rulebender later on.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Unfortunately, for most of the protagonists, what they've actually got is a selection of deeply crappy answers, and they're using their personal view of Bushido to try and figure out which is the least crappy.

Oh yes, absolutely, this would be the point made when Tsanuri and the Historian compare Mitsuko and Tsuko.

Now that we are talking about it I think it's interesting that both Tsanuri's story and Mitsuko's story features a person sticking around to make sure an order is carried out. We are basically being shown that "political commisars" are not an uncommon thing in the Lion army.

20 minutes ago, phillos said:

Now that we are talking about it I think it's interesting that both Tsanuri's story and Mitsuko's story features a person sticking around to make sure an order is carried out. We are basically being showed that "political commisars" are not an uncommon thing in the Lion army.

Well there is a slight difference between the two. Tsanuri its very much an "I'm here to make sure you follow orders."

In Mitsuko's case however it was "I am to observe the start of the battle and then once we reach the tipping point flee to ensure that Lion command is informed that the Unicorn attacked and took the castle and be available to provide testimony to that fact to sway the court to supporting the Lion call for open war with the Unicorn". There does not appear to be any doubt from Hosokawa that Mitsuko will do as she's been ordered and the only question we really have is did he survive to make his report (and given from his statements that he seems to be an Ikoma Message Runner and what we've seen of the escalation of hostilities between the Lion and Unicorn I think odds are very good that he did make his escape).

1 hour ago, phillos said:

Now that we are talking about it I think it's interesting that both Tsanuri's story and Mitsuko's story features a person sticking around to make sure an order is carried out. We are basically being shown that "political commisars" are not an uncommon thing in the Lion army.

I would argue the reverse; Tsanuri appears both surprised and irked to find someone looking over her shoulder, suggesting it's not common.

" Such interference of bureaucracy was new to her, but she meant to keep her wits and her honor intact, especially during this time of internal upheaval within the Lion Clan leadership ."

With a coup going on in the Clan (whether you think Tsuko is justified or not in seizing Toturi's position, that's exactly what it is), though, you're in a period where loyalty to the clan as a whole =/= loyalty to specific individuals in the clan, and hence you will start seeing 'loyalty enforcement' in a way that would be unthinkable - and frankly insulting - beforehand.

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

She sent a messenger to warn the villagers about the impending takeover, not a diplomatic delegation, there is no talk about taking the supplies peacefully.

The exact content of the message we don't and can't know, since it's not shown in the story.

It could easily have been asking them to turn the supplies over peacefully - indeed, if you didn't want that option then sending a message seems pointless. After all, the following statement is " That should give the villagers enough time for their militia to organize, should they dare stand against us " - a statement which allows for the possibility that they won't, which in turn implies taking the goods peacefully if the Lion are allowed to.

As to the specific phrase 'diplomatic delegation' - I would point out that the one 'diplomat' in the vicinity is 'The Perfumed Commissar' currently looking snidely at her over her shoulder and ordering the attack....

She really has no room to negotiate - she's being ordered to attack, and the only way she gets to not attack is if she can take the supplies without fighting.

Which the Onon village militia apparently refused to let her do.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

There does not appear to be any doubt from Hosokawa that Mitsuko will do as she's been ordered and the only question we really have is did he survive to make his report (and given from his statements that he seems to be an Ikoma Message Runner and what we've seen of the escalation of hostilities between the Lion and Unicorn I think odds are very good that he did make his escape).

We don't specifically know if he got away or not. But given that Ikoma Hosakawa was specifically told to make sure he got away if the fortress was breached he'd be very careful to ensure he wasn't somewhere were he'd be caught.

After all, the lion wouldn't want not to have their testimony to be able to say "Look! The Nasty Unicorn Killed Everyone! And we totally didn't set this up by placing a minimal garrison that was ordered not to retreat or accept challenge!"

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I did not forget her, but AFAIK everyone from Mitsuko's force died. I might be wrong but I thought this was intentional for the same reason I would use it: so that the truth about Mitsuko can be obscure for future developments

We know that when they have their final scene together the fighting has finished - " Shono knelt beside her and placed her head in his lap. He wouldn't have done so if there were still soldiers to fight " - but not whether there were any survivors or not. Other than Ikoma Hosakawa, who was ordered to play messenger, though, the Lion Samurai were ordered not to retreat, and Ashigaru infantry are unlikely to outrun Unicorn cavalry. We don't know if Hosakawa escaped but since he was ordered to ride , that means he was mounted too, so probably has a decent chance.

By comparison, Mitsuko's thoroughly dead. The story explicitely says she's dying, there are no lion left to help her, and Shono at this point goes to provide a mercy blow to the horse she crippled.

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Oh yes, absolutely, this would be the point made when Tsanuri and the Historian compare Mitsuko and Tsuko.

The problems, to me, with that, as noted, are

1. We - as the omniscient audience - know Mitsuko did her best to kill Shono, he just, in the end, proved better (or maybe luckier), though I accept the characters in your story wouldn't necessarily know that.
2. Since setting her up as the tragic martyr slaughtered by brutal Unicorn forces is the point of it, they're not going to be trying to defame her memory, so even if the historian didn't think much of her personally, they'd have been ordered to comply, so it's questionable if the debate would have occurred.
3. Placing people in the same situation would still ensure their death, 'high honours' or not - by the strict rules of Bushido, if there is no honourable course of action you can take where you survive, you die.
4. Tsuko may have decided that the only honourable action was to take leadership of the clan, but she still took a questionable route in doing that, since strictly the two people who can change the leadership/inheritance of the clan are the current champion or the Emperor and she neither challenged one nor consulted the other.

Ultimately, a big part of both Mitsuko and Shono's interaction and Altansarnai's interaction is their different view of Bushido. One of Mitsuko's dying thoughts was 'if only they shared the Lion's devotion to Bushido' - the problem is not devotion , but perception . As well as a 'fixation' on one particular bushido tenet, every clan has a 'blind spot' for another (like the Crab's infamous disregard for courtesy).

The problem is that the least important tenet for the Lion (Compassion) is simultaneously the most important to the Unicorn.

Which means that the average Lion bushi genuinely doesn't get (because from a Lion perspective it's unambiguously 'wrong') why Altansarnai would act the way she would over Ikoma/Asako Akari's Jigai (or why she would want to anyway; you've been ordered to separate from your husband, who cares if it was a love match?), or why leaving a horse crippled and in agony would anger the person who's raised it it's entire life so much when there's a big melodramatic duel to be had (it's just a horse, after all!).

Which means that the Unicorn are easy to bait with actions the Lion own people won't see as dishonourable. Which is exactly what the Ikoma are doing to get the war they're clearly wanting.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I would argue the reverse; Tsanuri appears both surprised and irked to find someone looking over her shoulder, suggesting it's not common.

" Such interference of bureaucracy was new to her, but she meant to keep her wits and her honor intact, especially during this time of internal upheaval within the Lion Clan leadership ."

With a coup going on in the Clan (whether you think Tsuko is justified or not in seizing Toturi's position, that's exactly what it is), though, you're in a period where loyalty to the clan as a whole =/= loyalty to specific individuals in the clan, and hence you will start seeing 'loyalty enforcement' in a way that would be unthinkable - and frankly insulting - beforehand.

Good point, which is interesting for a different reason. Basically the only thing holding Tsanuri loyal is her belief that Anakazu is an honorable lord. If she has that internal conflict then how many other Lion commanders have a similar conflict and are "this close" to splintering from their leadership. She almost goes down the path of open rebellion toward the end, but she talks herself out of it. If Ayano wasn't there to remind her of her duty to Anakazu I think she would have gone the other way. With Tsuko openly defying Toturi I think the Lion lords must be worried about a crisis of legitimacy in their clan.

Also it sets Ayano's involvement up as unusual. That sort of suggests that something is amiss here.

25 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Since setting her up as the tragic martyr slaughtered by brutal Unicorn forces is the point of it, they're not going to be trying to defame her memory, so even if the historian didn't think much of her personally, they'd have been ordered to comply, so it's questionable if the debate would have occurred.

In my version Mitsuko getting martyred wouldn't be so obvious or even seen as a very positive thing. The former would be questioned because of your first point, and I think the Historian would raise a legitimate point by actually questioning the circumstances of her death. In my opinion it would be also nice to see that having a nice story does not exempt you from scrutiny in the Lion Clan, that's a Crane thing.

44 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Placing people in the same situation would still ensure their death, 'high honours' or not - by the strict rules of Bushido, if there is no honourable course of action you can take where you survive, you die.

Yeah, again, the realization that this can be abused to kill off honorable samurai would hit Tsanuri at the end and prompt her to put Mitsuko's case on a hold until she can figure out what the **** is happening in the Lion Clan.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

In my version Mitsuko getting martyred wouldn't be so obvious or even seen as a very positive thing. The former would be questioned because of your first point, and I think the Historian would raise a legitimate point by actually questioning the circumstances of her death. In my opinion it would be also nice to see that having a nice story does not exempt you from scrutiny in the Lion Clan, that's a Crane thing.

Yeah, again, the realization that this can be abused to kill off honorable samurai would hit Tsanuri at the end and prompt her to put Mitsuko's case on a hold until she can figure out what the **** is happening in the Lion Clan.

Again you have two problems, the Historian is acting against the wishes of Clan Leadership, and is undermining the whole thing that the Ikoma Librarians do (sanitize Rokugan history to make the Empire and the Lion look good).

And Tsanuri is not that powerful that she would have the clout to do what you are suggesting. She is a commander of a Lion force yes, but she doesn't command a whole legion (a fact that we note when she encountered Htiomi's dragon army that her "Patrol" outnumbered Hitomi's army by a fair amount), she isn't near as we can tell the daughter of the Ikoma Daimyo like she was in O5R, and we have no idea if her old connection to Toturi of having been his student in her youth still persists.

Point of order. The Message Runner is Ikoma no Hosokawa Tesshu, a member of the Hosokawa vassal family, rather than a person with the Hosokawa personal name.

Imperial Census-taker

2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

And Tsanuri is not that powerful that she would have the clout to do what you are suggesting. She is a commander of a Lion force yes, but she doesn't command a whole legion (a fact that we note when she encountered Htiomi's dragon army that her "Patrol" outnumbered Hitomi's army by a fair amount), she isn't near as we can tell the daughter of the Ikoma Daimyo like she was in O5R, and we have no idea if her old connection to Toturi of having been his student in her youth still persists.

I'd forgotten that was her. Since that was someone passing between Lion and Crane battle-lines, and she's now within easy striking distance of the Unicorn, she must be getting moved around a lot (or she got sent to "count penguins in the arctic" after her encounter with the Dragon).

10 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd forgotten that was her. Since that was someone passing between Lion and Crane battle-lines, and she's now within easy striking distance of the Unicorn, she must be getting moved around a lot (or she got sent to "count penguins in the arctic" after her encounter with the Dragon).

Or redeployed as the War heated up.

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, again, the realization that this can be abused to kill off honorable samurai would hit Tsanuri at the end and prompt her to put Mitsuko's case on a hold until she can figure out what the **** is happening in the Lion Clan.

What I mean is that "putting samurai in an impossible position where the only honourable way out is death" is an option readily available to those samurai's commanders already.

Whatever the histories record about Mitsuko doesn't really change that, so Tsanuri's actions in submitting or suppressing it doesn't feel like it really affects much.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

What I mean is that "putting samurai in an impossible position where the only honourable way out is death" is an option readily available to those samurai's commanders already.

Now, THIS should be something no self-respecting Lion would EVER admit or think of. But if Mitsuko receives high honors then the rhetorical cat would be out of the bag, and Tsanuri can't let that happen. This would be mostly up to the delivery tho, as Tsanuri realizes that the unthinkable is unraveling right in front of her, and her fairly innocent journey to the Archives is a trigger to unleash one of the greatest horrors your average Lion can think of. Like, rather let the Shadowlands come and put everything to torch, because Jigoku is nothing compared to this kind of dishonor.

Seriously, this would be kind of important to shed some more positive light on the Lion and show that they are totally not okay with people messing with Bushido even if they are higher up in the hierarchy. That crap just can't fly... or, at least, it isn't supposed to fly, but there are now obviously problems around the top brass and it is now up to Tsanuri to save the Soul of the Lion Clan or something like that.

4 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

undermining the whole thing that the Ikoma Librarians do (sanitize Rokugan history to make the Empire and the Lion look good)

That is only for the public and IIRC it only covers big events and not personal tragedies. As far as I'm aware, the Ikoma is super-strict on what goes into the actual Archives. But.. you know, if the Ikoma would suddenly lose this strange practice then I wouldn't shed many tears...

4 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

And Tsanuri is not that powerful that she would have the clout to do what you are suggesting.

Exactly. And that would be a problem addressed in a future story, like the whole "raiding a tax village" thing. I only included this to have Tsanuri overreaching, because if this story is any measure then she has to do something bad that can bite her in the back latter, it is probably a setup for Tsanuri joining up with Toturi (probably in roninhood).

7 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Now, THIS should be something no self-respecting Lion would EVER admit or think of

Admit? Definitely not. Think of? It wouldn't be the first time, from Honours Veil way back when, to Murder at, and Wedding at Kyotei Castle (featuring a young, passionate samurai sent on what a third party can see is going to turn into a suicide mission by everyone's least favourite bearded Ikoma troll...)

Basically, as a plot, I agree someone deciding "this isn't right" and trying to take parts of the Lion hierarchy to task about what bushido means (beyond just the tenets duty and honour) has to be coming. And I hope it's not just toturi (or toturi-and-fellow-exiles) driving it when it is, but you have actual elements of the Lion acting appropriately too.

Besides which, you could argue that ship has.... Not sailed, exactly, but Toturi chose to go back to the capital where the murderer, chief conspirator, and most important witnesses AREN'T and trade insults with his most important ally as a prelude to stepping on the toes of the most competent investigators in Rokugan, rather than either (a) doing his duty as clan champion and stopping what could easily end up in a clan civil war or (b) doing his duty as emerald champion and FINDING THE BLOODY EMPEROR that he's legally Yojimbo to.

Sorry....may have triggered myself a bit there over that story choice...Toturi may think too much but that doesn't always mean he thinks clearly.

14 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Which means that the Unicorn are easy to bait with actions the Lion own people won't see as dishonourable. Which is exactly what the Ikoma are doing to get the war they're clearly wanting.

****, the Ikoma have had at least a mild coating of slime since Curved Blades- Trying to snag a Clan Champion with some weird marriage custom (which, again, the Ide apparently didn't even look up until agreeing to the deal? Whatever) which, let's face it, was a pretty clear "we consider the Ikoma daimyo a more important person than the Unicorn Clan Champion" statement.

It's entirely possible that the Ikoma are aware that their harvest is in trouble- that Tsanuri really might not have been neglected- and that they've been drumming up reasons to go to war with the Unicorn to grab some arable farmland. I doubt this- because other "secret" problems (the elemental imbalance, the Dragon's declining birthrate, the internal tensions of the Scorpion) have been explicltly spelled out for readers, while we haven't heard a peep about the Lion having any troubles that weren't political.

What is certain is that the Ikoma leadership has been agitating relations with the Unicorn since we jumped aboard the story in this continuity- and were also looking to throw their weight around with the Fox.

49 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

What is certain is that the Ikoma leadership has been agitating relations with the Unicorn since we jumped aboard the story in this continuity- and were also looking to throw their weight around with the Fox.

The person trying to troll the Kitsune was an Akodo, I believe. But, regardless of specific family, yes, there's a nasty core in the upper hierarchy that's trying to essentially poke other bits of Rokugan until they twitch, then get offended and have the Lion attack them in justified and furious vengeance, with the full support of the clan - most of whom are probably only aware of the offense, rather than the provocation.

49 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Trying to snag a Clan Champion with some weird marriage custom (which, again, the Ide apparently didn't even look up until agreeing to the deal? Whatever) which, let's face it, was a pretty clear "we consider the Ikoma daimyo a more important person than the Unicorn Clan Champion" statement.

Yes and no. If that is the custom, that is the custom; Altansarnai had apparently (through gritted teeth!) agreed to it even after finding it out, so without having a fiction 'window' on those respective negotiations and who knew what, when, it's hard to be sure who within the Unicorn 'got fooled' and who just went with a bad deal because it was the only deal going.

That said, your comment of "we consider the Ikoma daimyo a more important person than the Unicorn Clan Champion" is definitely true - I refer you to one of the Curved Blades quotes:

"I have heard there are protests in the Lion lands. Even with a dowry of Unicorn battle steeds, the Lion are loath to see one of their respected samurai marry a Shinjo."

There are a few families in the empire who do have very strict customs about gender and marriage. One that I'd be VERY interested to look at is the Matsu, because Matsu marriage customs - dating right the way back to Matsu herself! - was that men marry into the Matsu, women don't marry out of it, and whether it was intended that this would have applied to Akodo Arasou.

Ultimately, it wasn't the " you have to become a lion " which derailed things. That was unwelcome but had been accepted. The straw that broke the camel's back was the lack of compassion implicit in the fact that the Ikoma daimyo was already married, supposedly happily so, and he'd been ordered to separate from his wife, who would rather take her own life than be sent home, and Akari and Kamoko's pleas together . Anakazu's marriage, by comparison, you can clearly see in Curved Blades , is something either no-one in the Unicorn knew, or else no-one who knew had told Altansarnai (read it however you will).

I would very, very much like to see what's happened to Ikoma/Asako Akari! Since - we're told - she and Ikoma Anakazu are married and genuinely in love, then - whatever else has happened, Altansarnai's actions have spared her life and....in theory.... should have allowed her and her husband - and their daughter! - to remain together.

Unless the 'ordered separation' had already taken effect and she's not allowed to go back (which if they were in love means such a prohibition must presumably be against Anakazu's wishes or without his knowledge) or no-one's yet told the Lion she didn't actually kill herself. So far as I know, no-one's seen her since the end of Curved Blades, and Altansarnai certainly sent her home thinking she would be welcomed back (she calls her Ikoma Akari when she dismisses her).

Another thing worth noting was that Ikoma Anakazu 'was ordered' to divorce her. Authority to issue orders only flows 'downhill' in the clan, so - as implied in curved blades - the only person who could have issued such an order was the then Lion Champion, Akodo Arasou. I'd not registered that before. Whether the Unicorn knew internal Lion politics well enough to know Anakazu and Akari were genuinely in love is one thing, but Arasou, as Anakazu's immediate feudal liege bloody well should have.

Which means either it's another mark against him as a leader because he didn't know and didn't think to ask, or it's a really, really big mark against him because he did know and didn't care.

Ironically, as far as we know, Anakazu was the ONLY married clan family daimyo in the Lion, for that matter. We don't know much about Kitsu Takeko other than the fact that she's extremely young, meaning the odds are she's unmarried, whilst we know Akodo Arasou and Matsu Tsuko were definitely both unmarried since they were betrothed to each other.

20 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The person trying to troll the Kitsune was an Akodo, I believe.

You're quite right- it was Kage.

Which makes my suspicions about Ujiaki have a wee bit more traction.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

****, the Ikoma have had at least a mild coating of slime since Curved Blades- Trying to snag a Clan Champion with some weird marriage custom (which, again, the Ide apparently didn't even look up until agreeing to the deal? Whatever) which, let's face it, was a pretty clear "we consider the Ikoma daimyo a more important person than the Unicorn Clan Champion" statement.

I have more than a few suspicions here regarding Anakazu's wife. Starting with whether her identity is actually real.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

There are a few families in the empire who do have very strict customs about gender and marriage. One that I'd be VERY interested to look at is the Matsu, because Matsu marriage customs - dating right the way back to Matsu herself! - was that men marry into the Matsu, women don't marry out of it, and whether it was intended that this would have applied to Akodo Arasou.

There are a few instances in the Lore where Matsu women have married out, and the latest RPG adventure gives us an example of how it may have been handled as the wife of the Daimyo (who is a vassal of the Otomo) in the story was a Seppun and kept her family name after marriage.

As well in old Lore Toturi and Arasou's mother was actually a Matsu who had married out, and even though she took the Akodo name as the Champion was obviously the social superior of the two, they had negotiated that any female children of the marriage would take the Matsu family name instead of the Akodo. Presumably they would likely have negotiated something similar for Tsuko and Arasou.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Another thing worth noting was that Ikoma Anakazu 'was ordered' to divorce her. Authority to issue orders only flows 'downhill' in the clan, so - as implied in curved blades - the only person who could have issued such an order was the then Lion Champion, Akodo Arasou. I'd not registered that before. Whether the Unicorn knew internal Lion politics well enough to know Anakazu and Akari were genuinely in love is one thing, but Arasou, as Anakazu's immediate feudal liege bloody well should have.

Given Arasou’s personality & leadership style, this makes it more likely that the Ikoma Daimyo is the one actually calling the shots.
Is Arasou the sort to insist that Anakazu divorce his loving wife to marry Altansarnai? No, because he doesn’t want peace with the Unicorn and it’s not the sort of plan he’d come up with to provoke war.

But, is Anakazu subtle enough to use himself as bait, then to push his wife towards making an impassioned plea on behalf of their love? I would absolutely say yes. He might’ve just told Arasou “I can provoke a war with the Unicorn” and left it at that. Probably all Arasou’d care about.

So he doesn’t even need to be Kolat, he might’ve just gotten used to acting under a Champion with a light hand who did all the right things, then he gets Toturi, who wants to think things through and do what’s in the best interests of the Empire as if the Lion putting the other Clans in their place and running the whole **** show wasn’t the best outcome. Whoops! Accidental Kolat.

2 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Given Arasou’s personality & leadership style, this makes it more likely that the Ikoma Daimyo is the one actually calling the shots.
Is Arasou the sort to insist that Anakazu divorce his loving wife to marry Altansarnai? No, because he doesn’t want peace with the Unicorn and it’s not the sort of plan he’d come up with to provoke war.

But, is Anakazu subtle enough to use himself as bait, then to push his wife towards making an impassioned plea on behalf of their love? I would absolutely say yes. He might’ve just told Arasou “I can provoke a war with the Unicorn” and left it at that. Probably all Arasou’d care about.

So he doesn’t even need to be Kolat, he might’ve just gotten used to acting under a Champion with a light hand who did all the right things, then he gets Toturi, who wants to think things through and do what’s in the best interests of the Empire as if the Lion putting the other Clans in their place and running the whole **** show wasn’t the best outcome. Whoops! Accidental Kolat.

The counter to that is Arasou could be the type to say we are pushing claims against the Crane in and around Toshi Ranbo and so I want the Unicorn flank "pacified" so I don't need to worry about them acting up given their long standing friendship with the Crane and if they can get some resources (land and horses) in the bargain even better. From that given the Ikoma's role as the Courtiers of the clan they would be the ones taking the lead in the negotiations. When the time comes to select a suitable groom for Altansarnai there really were only 2 possible candidates in Arasou (and there was no way they were marrying the clan champion off to another clan champion) or Anakazu as the Matsu and Kitsu Daimyo's are both female and have no "heirs" at the moment. Anakazu could have stepped aside and let his daughter assume the mantle of Daimyo if she was old enough (or had someone else act as regent if she still hasn't completed her gempuku) which would have made him the logical choice from both the Unicorn and Lion's perspectives.

Now whether Arasou knew that the Ikoma slipped the "By Ikoma Tradition" clause into the deal is a question mark, but given that he didn't strike me as a political niceties type of guy and his focus seemed to be on the Crane front I wouldn't be surprised if he was just going along with the reports that the Unicorn had accepted the deal, and then his death occurred before Altansarnai made her decision to walk away from the deal. Anakazu on the other hand would likely have been if not in on the deal, at least complicit after the fact, but if he was interested in or being coerced for some reason into fostering tensions with the Unicorn and possibly "scoring" some points over the Unicorn by pulling the rug out from under them to exert Lion superiority over them in the court may have gone along regardless.

The flaw is that the whole deal on the Ikoma part seemed designed at each turn to either provoke the Unicorn as they were giving up it seems everything (land was ceded to the Lion, they were sending horses to them and i the end their Clan Champion was stepping down and her replacement was taking a Lion bride so that their future champions would have stronger ties to the Lion) without really not giving up much (they were potentially losing out on the advantage that the Ikoma Daimyo having been married to a Phoenix but his heir would still have those Phoenix ties so there is minimal lose likely there, and the marriage deal for Toturi and Kaede was still on the books so Phoenix were replacing a Daimyo with ties to the Asako family with the Brother of the Champion having ties to the daughter of a member of the Elemental council so may have still been fine with the old deal being set aside) and the Unicorn are really only getting "peace" with the Lion out of the deal. Yes the recognition may have been "worth" it to them, but it was such a display of weakness that I fail to see how it would benefit them long term.

It does lead back to everything about the deal being so in favour of the Lion and counter to thee interests of the Unicorn and the only way that the deal could really have gotten through on both sides is if there was a hand moving behind the scenes to move the negotiations towards a goal of inciting strife rather then quelling it, and that leads to my theory that Ide Tadaji and Ujiaki are both Kolat and were conspiring to get their clans to step up tensions as a tool to destabilize the Empire.