Think of it this way. The US has a requirement that you be born in America in order to become president. Maul wasn't even claiming to be a Mandalorian. It would be sort of like if the British prime minister declared himself president of the US after assassinating the president, and then the VP waged a guerrilla war against the new regime. The Brit was not born in America, and does not even claim to be an American. While still technically an ally (well, until the whole assassination part), not an American. The Death Watch and the True Mandalorians had significant disagreements over what "traditionalist" meant. It does not surprise me that Death Watch would have its own differences over whether or not an outsider could become the leader of Mandalore.

As for "committing treason" she doesn't see it as committing treason as she sees Maul as an illegitimate leader. She probably sees herself as resisting a conqueror, not fighting a rightful authority.

Plus, if I remember correctly, she expresses opposition and Maul immediately orders his Mandos to kill her and her allies, so it wasn't entirely her fault that she took up arms against him (though she probably would have anyway).

As for the whole terrorist thing, I agree. She and Death Watch were the bad guys, and if she were to come up in my Mandalorian campaign, she'd be shown as such (Death Watch is definitely persona non grata with the party of 6 True Mandalorians). However, she changes over time, especially by the time we reach Rebels. We never really get inside her head all that much to find out what she thinks of Death Watch and her past actions as a part of Death Watch, but she seems to have taken a different stance by the time of her appearance in Rebels. My headcanon (prone to change based on the upcoming arc), is that she ended up making an alliance with the remaining True Mandalorians against Maul and his faction of Death Watch. It was an alliance of convenience that never ended as they ended up fighting the Empire soon afterwards. Sadly, I doubt the True Mandalorians will end up making an appearance, but that's what headcanon is for.

I agree with @P-47 Thunderbolt on this. Bo Katan wasn’t being xenophobic so much as being Mandalorian, and wanting a proper Mandalorian as the ruler of Mandalore, not an outsider, regardless of said outsider’s species.

13 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The US has a requirement that you be born in America in order to become president.

False.
The US has the requirement that you are a Natural Born Citizen of the USA to be eligible to become the president. This would extend to children of US citizens who are born abroad as well. Ted Cruz was born in Canada for instance.
Sorry to be so pedantic but there is a major difference.

She's not xenophobic, she just hates outsiders and other species and people who don't share her heritage?

Er, guys, that's xenophobia.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

She's not xenophobic, she just hates outsiders and other species and people who don't share her heritage?

Er, guys, that's xenophobia.

She doesn’t hate other species nor outsiders. Not wanting an outsider to be the leader of her people is not the same thing as hating outsiders in general, nor does it mean she hates other species.

She's just a politically concerned citizen who doesn't want someone in charge who's not part of the same in-group as her, and immediately betrays both her supposedly sacred traditions & resorts to violence to oppose him.

Now if we only had a word or two to succinctly describe someone like that...

17 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Plus, if I remember correctly, she expresses opposition and Maul immediately orders his Mandos to kill her and her allies, so it wasn't entirely her fault that she took up arms against him (though she probably would have anyway).

Pre Viszla is totally cool with executing members of his group. If the leader killing his own men doesn't make her bat an eye, then the leader ordering his men to kill someone can't be a legitimate reason to take up arms.

4 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

False.
The US has the requirement that you are a Natural Born Citizen of the USA to be eligible to become the president. This would extend to children of US citizens who are born abroad as well. Ted Cruz was born in Canada for instance.
Sorry to be so pedantic but there is a major difference.

Sorry, close enough. "Born American" would have been a better way to say that. My intention was clear enough though.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

She's not xenophobic, she just hates outsiders and other species and people who don't share her heritage?

Er, guys, that's xenophobia.

Now it's my turn to be pedantic. Xenophobe literally means someone who fears foreigners. She most definitely does not fear them. 🤣 (the word has also taken on the meaning of hate, which I will no address. The etymology is just kinda funny)

Hate is also an inaccurate word. Mandalorians generally look down on most outsiders ("Aruetii") because they do not measure up to Mandalorian standards. For most Mandalorians, this is simply a general dislike or feeling of superiority. Death Watch takes this a bit further, but it is not so much because they are outsiders but because Death Watch is a bunch of cutthroats.

28 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

She's just a politically concerned citizen who doesn't want someone in charge who's not part of the same in-group as her, and immediately betrays both her supposedly sacred traditions & resorts to violence to oppose him.

Now if we only had a word or two to succinctly describe someone like that...

That's what I'm saying. She isn't betraying her sacred traditions, as Maul isn't seen (by her at least) as a rightful ruler because he is not Mandalorian. As for resulting to violence, what exactly would you expect her to do? Especially when she was fired upon pretty much instantly.

27 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Pre Viszla is totally cool with executing members of his group. If the leader killing his own men doesn't make her bat an eye, then the leader ordering his men to kill someone can't be a legitimate reason to take up arms.

Depends. Killing someone for failure (again, Death Watch are cutthroats) is different than an illegitimate ruler ordering them to be killed for opposing him. It is not surprising that he would do so, but you seriously can't expect her to just take that?

As for xenophobia, it is important to note that pretty much anyone could become a Mandalorian if they followed the customs and made the cut. They just don't have a lot of respect for most non-Mandalorians as they value martial prowess, and most denizens of the galaxy are not particularly martially skilled. Not all Mandalorians are going to be extremely martially skilled for a variety of reasons, but they all go through the training from a young age and those that aren't really warriors contribute to their clans in other ways. It is not too difficult to gain a Mandalorian's respect without becoming a Mandalorian though (Bo Katan did go ask Ahsoka for help, after all).

Xenophobia does not exclusively refer to fear of strangers. You know that. The dictionary knows that.

The rest of your comment is a similar attempt to redefine events as somehow being different from what we see clearly happen on screen.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

Xenophobia does not exclusively refer to fear of strangers. You know that.

The rest is a similar attempt to redefine events as somehow being different from what we see clearly happen on screen.

32 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

(the word has also taken on the meaning of hate, which I will no address. The etymology is just kinda funny)

That's supposed to be "now," as I then did address it. I just missed the "w" key. The etymology is quite clear, however.

I'm not sure what you mean be saying I'm redefining the events. I'm looking at what happened on screen and evaluating it. If you mean redefining because I don't accept your evaluation, then yeah, I kinda am. I think your evaluation is wrong. I'm also bringing in my outside knowledge of Mandalorian culture and customs to contribute to my interpretations, which is why some of the things I say are not necessarily readily apparent from the show.

Except I've seen other stuff on Mandos, too, and it doesn't change what she does and why she does it. Particularly since we've only ever seen the possibility of a non-human Mandalorian in a time frame far later than the show, during vastly different circumstances, which have significantly impacted the group's behavior and attitudes.

And the Traviss Mando stuff is non-canon and as such irrelevant to the discussion.

5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Except I've seen other stuff on Mandos, too, and it doesn't change what she does and why she does it. Particularly since we've only ever seen the possibility of a non-human Mandalorian in a time frame far later than the show, during vastly different circumstances, which have significantly impacted the group's behavior and attitudes.

So your assertion is that Mandalorians dislike members of other species. That is fairly demonstrably false, given that Bo Katan came for Ahsoka. Remember, during the initial part of "A Friend in Need," she didn't know Ahsoka was a Jedi or a skilled warrior, probably believing she was just a pretty face. And yes, I'm going to bring some of the Traviss stuff into this.* Mandalorian women were expected to also be fighters, and calling them weak is a very serious insult. Bo Katan, seeing Ahsoka as weak, would have a considerable amount of contempt for her. Not because she isn't human, but simply because she is seen as weak and rather useless.

*because that is what we know of their culture and Canon has yet to dispute that. Plus, Canon usually doesn't dispute Legends when it pertains to species or culture as far as I can recall. So far, what we've seen in Canon (It's not a race it's a creed, foundlings, etc.) lines up with the old Legends. If you refuse to accept any of that, then I guess we're done since that is the information that gives context to her actions. When you view her actions out of their context and refuse to hear alternate explanations, then I can see how you arrive at your conclusion.

It should also be noted that Karen Traviss created the Mandalorian culture. Not only that, but it is that culture we see explored in Clone Wars , Rebels and The Mandalorian.

43 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

So your assertion is that Mandalorians dislike members of other species.

No it's not, and that's a ridiculous reading of my comment. Have fun being a disingenuous **** poster.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It should also be noted that Karen Traviss created the Mandalorian culture. Not only that, but it is that culture we see explored in Clone Wars , Rebels and The Mandalorian.

I'm fairly sure the division of "Death Watch" and "True Mandalorian" factions (which I would argue is the main pre-existing facet we see explored in the Clone Wars, as opposed to the series' own introductions to lore such as the pacifism, etc) predate Traviss' entries into the franchise. I only mention it as I recently re-read the Jango Fett: Open Season comics, which go into that division in some depth and I believe that comic was published as an AOTC tie-in whereas Traviss came along a couple of years later.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

No it's not, and that's a ridiculous reading of my comment. Have fun being a disingenuous **** poster.

That's the impression I got from what you were saying, what did you mean? I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

I would also note that Bo also showed the same contempt for the pacifist mandalorians... unless you're saying she was only treating her own sister that way because she was xenophobic...

In defense of Traviss, she took existing lore at the time consolidated it, and tweaked it into a coherent culture. Everything from old comics, books.. any obscure reference. This is still the culture represented by lucas and its products. Go look through Friends like These.. all the mandalorian elements are from what Traviss built up.

Everyone is quick to talk trash about Traviss's work... sometimes I think it's because it's due to the idea that Mandalorians are able to take down the holy jedi and sith..

Well, a culture of what amounts to Israeli Spartan navy seals who are trained to be able to effectively be small armies.. it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

It is even mentioned in Rebels that they infact could and have been able to take out a jedi..

1 minute ago, RuusMarev said:

I would also note that Bo also showed the same contempt for the pacifist mandalorians... unless you're saying she was only treating her own sister that way because she was xenophobic...

In defense of Traviss, she took existing lore at the time consolidated it, and tweaked it into a coherent culture. Everything from old comics, books.. any obscure reference. This is still the culture represented by lucas and its products. Go look through Friends like These.. all the mandalorian elements are from what Traviss built up.

Everyone is quick to talk trash about Traviss's work... sometimes I think it's because it's due to the idea that Mandalorians are able to take down the holy jedi and sith..

Well, a culture of what amounts to Israeli Spartan navy seals who are trained to be able to effectively be small armies.. it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

It is even mentioned in Rebels that they infact could and have been able to take out a jedi..

There is the mural in the plaza seen in various CLone Wars episodes based on Mandalore (notably when Sidious duels Maul and Savage) that depicts Mandalorian warriors fighting Jedi. I'm not entirely sure why the pacifists left it up, but that's beside the point.

25 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:

Everyone is quick to talk trash about Traviss's work... sometimes I think it's because it's due to the idea that Mandalorians are able to take down the holy jedi and sith..

Close, but not quite. It's due to her portraying them as functioning the way Chuck Norris jokes hit their punchlines...but played straight and meant to be taken as in-universe gospel.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that she stated she hadn't been interested in writing Star Wars fiction, and it showed in her work, up to and including her 1/3 of a what was set up as a cooperative storyline all but ignoring events of the storyline that weren't centered on her Uber-Mandos. Her entries in the Legacy of the Force series read to me like they didn't belong in that story at all.

As always, though...mileage varies.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

Close, but not quite. It's due to her portraying them as functioning the way Chuck Norris jokes hit their punchlines...but played straight and meant to be taken as in-universe gospel.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that she stated she hadn't been interested in writing Star Wars fiction, and it showed in her work, up to and including her 1/3 of a what was set up as a cooperative storyline all but ignoring events of the storyline that weren't centered on her Uber-Mandos. Her entries in the Legacy of the Force series read to me like they didn't belong in that story at all.

As always, though...mileage varies.

I'm not a fan of anything from the Legacy era, period. Mandos included, I'm sad to say. I don't know a ton about the era (by design), so I can't speak to that era of her work. However, I do quite like the Clone Wars era Mando-stuff, and the Mandalorian culture information as a whole, so I thank her for that. Your mileage may vary on that though, and I can respect it.

I just really like Mandos.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm not a fan of anything from the Legacy era, period. Mandos included, I'm sad to say. I don't know a ton about the era (by design), so I can't speak to that era of her work. However, I do quite like the Clone Wars era Mando-stuff, and the Mandalorian culture information as a whole, so I thank her for that. Your mileage may vary on that though, and I can respect it.

I just really like Mandos.

Just as a point of clarification, making sure we're on the same page, the Legacy of the Force series of novels was set just about 15 years after New Jedi Order, as opposed to the Legacy comic, about 100 years later. She wrote books 2, 5, and 8 of the 9 in the series, and I honestly feel that I could have skipped at least 90% of those three novels and still fully followed the story of the other six. Her entries detoured big time into her whole "Mandos are the mostest aweomest of the bestest of the best unbeatable fighting machines who can kill entire armies just by brooding in their direction" shtick.

I got no problem with Mandos, either. She just consistently dialed everything about them up to not just 11, but 50. To the point that I found it incomprehensible that such an overpowered, overly competent society of super-duper warriors could be nearly wiped out so easily. So yeah, Mandalorians are cool. Traviss' presentation...not my thing.

27 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Just as a point of clarification, making sure we're on the same page, the Legacy of the Force series of novels was set just about 15 years after New Jedi Order, as opposed to the Legacy comic, about 100 years later. She wrote books 2, 5, and 8 of the 9 in the series, and I honestly feel that I could have skipped at least 90% of those three novels and still fully followed the story of the other six. Her entries detoured big time into her whole "Mandos are the mostest aweomest of the bestest of the best unbeatable fighting machines who can kill entire armies just by brooding in their direction" shtick.

Legacy era refers to the time from about 35 ABY onwards, right? If so, that's what I was referring to. I'm a bit fuzzy, so if those books weren't in that timeline, then whoops. Pretty much anything from the beginning of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion onwards is utterly discounted in my opinion. The stuff before is only given some consideration (love the Thrawn novels though).

31 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I got no problem with Mandos, either. She just consistently dialed everything about them up to not just 11, but 50. To the point that I found it incomprehensible that such an overpowered, overly competent society of super-duper warriors could be nearly wiped out so easily. So yeah, Mandalorians are cool. Traviss' presentation...not my thing.

Fair enough. Love your description of them, by the way. Quite humorous.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

egacy era refers to the time from about 35 ABY onwards, right? If so, that's what I was referring to. I'm a bit fuzzy, so if those books weren't in that timeline, then whoops. Pretty much anything from the beginning of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion onwards is utterly discounted in my opinion. The stuff before is only given some consideration (love the Thrawn novels though).

Okay, we're on the same page. I've just mostly seen "Legacy era" used to refer to the Dark Horse Legacy comics, so I wanted to be sure.

2 hours ago, RuusMarev said:

Everyone is quick to talk trash about Traviss's work... sometimes I think it's because it's due to the idea that Mandalorians are able to take down the holy jedi and sith..

1) No, it's because all the Mandos are Mando-Sues.

2) Her work describes a culture that simply cannot exist because they are presented in an economic and political vacuum. You can't support a warrior caste unless you have vast numbers of farmers and other workers (and what is their status, hmmm?), or they are terrorist/pirates stealing the productivity of others.

In short, Traviss' work is a celebration of parasites in love with the smell of their own BO under all that beskar. They are not interesting, wise, insightful, or moral. And they hide behind those helmets, like internet trolls.

The shows do a much better job of exploring these issues than Traviss managed in hundreds of pages.

It's sort of funny to me that the entire arc of Star Wars is about power and humility, how the Jedi lost their way due to arrogance and hubris (not exactly holy, eh?), and how difficult it is to walk a moral line in a chaotic universe; and yet somehow people glom onto faceless badasses and hold them up as a paragons. Weird.

15 minutes ago, whafrog said:

2) Her work describes a culture that simply cannot exist because they are presented in an economic and political vacuum. You can't support a warrior caste unless you have vast numbers of farmers and other workers (and what is their status, hmmm?), or they are terrorist/pirates stealing the productivity of others.

Who's to say they don't? Mandalorians aren't all warriors all the time. Plus, on a smaller scale they could make a living with mercenary work and purchase the goods they need (largely the state of affairs when it comes to the contemporary eras [in Legends at least]). For the Old Republic era ("Mandalorian Empire") it was largely supplied through conquered worlds and peoples, but as that is not my era of expertise, I don't know the conditions under which the workers worked, as to whether they were slaves or simply "taxed" as it were.