First off, Reach PBP spoilers. Nothing shocking, probably, but you’ve been warned.

My first question is about an opposed force check, which resulted in npc failure, with triumph. It was opposed by the highest PC willpower, though it could have potentially effected a number of PCs. In hindsight, I wondered if I could have used the triumph for the force power to effect some of the others, while keeping the failure versus the opposing pc. Unbalanced? Abuse of power? Just looking for some input.

My second question is about the whole “GM flips a dp for the nemesis to get away” concept. I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere, but... is that all there is to it..? Don’t want to do it all the time, but there is another target who could serve as a successful close to this episode, and I fear the nemesis might be giving an underwhelming performance in the finale. Can I just flip a dp and narrate how the nemesis gets away, for a more satisfying confrontation in episode three?

Thanks!

55 minutes ago, Edgehawk said:

My first question is about an opposed force check, which resulted in npc failure, with triumph. It was opposed by the highest PC willpower, though it could have potentially effected a number of PCs. In hindsight, I wondered if I could have used the triumph for the force power to effect some of the others, while keeping the failure versus the opposing pc. Unbalanced? Abuse of power? Just looking for some input.

I think that makes sense. I don't know which force power you were using, but if it is opposed by the highest, I think it makes sense for you to apply it to weaker PCs when you get enough Triumph/Advantage.

55 minutes ago, Edgehawk said:

My second question is about the whole “GM flips a dp for the nemesis to get away” concept. I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere, but... is that all there is to it..? Don’t want to do it all the time, but there is another target who could serve as a successful close to this episode, and I fear the nemesis might be giving an underwhelming performance in the finale. Can I just flip a dp and narrate how the nemesis gets away, for a more satisfying confrontation in episode three?

As a GM, I'd say yes. Flip a DP and narrate away.8 As a player in the campaign, I'd say yeah, that would probably be best.

*This is not a hard and fast rule. As a GM, I would rarely use it, and if I did, I would put the Nemesis in a situation where their escape makes sense and it doesn't feel forced.

59 minutes ago, Edgehawk said:

In hindsight, I wondered if I could have used the triumph for the force power to effect some of the others

I don't think so. You're basically saying a Triumph is a success, which it's not, it's simply the top result on the narrative axis. It's not on the success/fail axis.

1 hour ago, Edgehawk said:

My second question is about the whole “GM flips a dp for the nemesis to get away” concept.

Personally I'd never do that. As both a player and a GM I'd find that extremely dissatisfying. If I didn't scale something properly and the players succeed, that's on me, and I shouldn't be able to get out of it that easily. If the players make mincemeat of my nemesis, so be it. I should see it coming and prepare for departure a couple of turns before the DP flip is required.

I *might* use a DP flip to give an incapacitated nemesis one final round of "vengeance" (one last force push, one last detonator to click while chuckling, etc).

After all, a DP flip isn't much in terms of mechanic effect. It's the same as a Triumph, which is also much less effective than the rules sales pitch would have you believe. In combat, it's an upgrade to your next dice pool, but that's really only significant if all the dice are already yellow and the upgrade adds a green...that's what really changes the odds of success.

14 minutes ago, whafrog said:

If the players make mincemeat of my nemesis, so be it. I should see it coming and prepare for departure a couple of turns before the DP flip is required.

We’re not there, yet. For some reason, I thought “flip a destiny point to get away” was a thing, but maybe just as introducing a means into the narrative? Am I crazy? (Don’t answer that). Has no one else encountered this idea before, somewhere in this game? It seems kind of cheesy to me, which is one of the reasons I was asking about it.

I thought it was too, but on further investigation I could not find it referenced in the CRB, although I could have missed it.

It's not something I've given much thought to, as it isn't something I would generally need/want to use. I can see its use in some cases though.

1 hour ago, Edgehawk said:

For some reason, I thought “flip a destiny point to get away” was a thing, but maybe just as introducing a means into the narrative? Am I crazy? (Don’t answer that).

Lol. No, I think you are right, I too have a hazy memory of either reading it in the core book or maybe it was mentioned in an interview with one of the designers. Regardless, I view this kind of use of DPs in the same way I view many of the Signature Abilities...useless, pointless, dramatically deflating, ... I could go on...

In addition to the normal upgrading a dice pool, I let the players use a DP to "remember" that they did, in fact, bring along some iron spikes; or maybe to introduce a plot or tactical point ("I actually know this NPC from the past" or "there's a fuel cell near the door, I'd like to shoot it") and other things of that nature. Basically, I use it to short-circuit book-keeping, or add story elements, not to toss a spanner into the story or fix a problem with my scaling.

Don't forget you can also give a Nemesis a second slot/turn at the end of the round. I have that standard for all my Nemeses, makes them VERY tough.

Possibly a better way to use DPs in the current situation would be to introduce something into the narrative that had not been previously accounted for, like a sleeper cell within the captured Imperial personnel, or some previously unaccounted for goons on the ship, or a transport shuttle that had been missed in the initial sweep (alternatively, something that wasn't supposed to, but actually did have a complement of reserve troops), or something to add to the encounter.

A minor houserule that I have implemented is that sometimes something requires 2 DPs rather than just one, generally for particularly dramatic facts or sudden reinforcements or something (a rule I use for both GMs and players). Can't remember any examples of the top of my head, though I know there have been some.

9 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

Don't forget you can also give a Nemesis a second slot/turn at the end of the round. I have that standard for all my Nemeses, makes them VERY tough

I'm not a fan of this at all. I'd give it to a Nexu or a Rancor before I'd give it to Vader, simply because a PC can never really aspire to equal a beast, but they could in theory become as good as Vader or Palpatine (who are, after all, only human). At some point the PC is going to ask "when do I get to do that?", and there is no good mechanical answer.

10 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

Don't forget you can also give a Nemesis a second slot/turn at the end of the round. I have that standard for all my Nemeses, makes them VERY tough.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

I'm not a fan of this at all. I'd give it to a Nexu or a Rancor before I'd give it to Vader, simply because a PC can never really aspire to equal a beast, but they could in theory become as good as Vader or Palpatine (who are, after all, only human). At some point the PC is going to ask "when do I get to do that?", and there is no good mechanical answer.

I’m already implementing this, for the first time, and I’m not sure I like the result. The nemesis had the first initiative slot to begin with, so having the last slot as well seems a bit much (essentially 2 turns in a row at the end of the round/ start of the next).

7 hours ago, whafrog said:

I'm not a fan of this at all. I'd give it to a Nexu or a Rancor before I'd give it to Vader, simply because a PC can never really aspire to equal a beast, but they could in theory become as good as Vader or Palpatine (who are, after all, only human). At some point the PC is going to ask "when do I get to do that?", and there is no good mechanical answer.

It's a reasonable concern. The way I handle it is that they only get the extra turn when fighting alone against 3 or more PCs. I just treat it like an "NPC-only" talent/special ability like Adversary or Imperial Valor. That way it doesn't prevent the PCs from eventually advancing to the point where they can go one-on-one with the nemesis. So in practice Vader and Palpatine are a lot more human if it's handled that way. (With this version of it, I wouldn't consider it unbalancing for a PC to gain the ability as a final-tier talent either.)

On your last point: do your PCs ask "when do I get to do that?" about the Adversary talent?

(Sorry, couldn't restrain myself, when I saw P47 answering :D)

You can always use DP to introduce new elements. For example a prelaid sabotage, that the BBG prepared to cover her escape. Something that the PCs have to deal with, otherwise grim consequences happen.

You know, like the typical slippery type of opponents, who always have one more trick in their sleeve.

11 hours ago, whafrog said:

I'm not a fan of this at all. I'd give it to a Nexu or a Rancor before I'd give it to Vader, simply because a PC can never really aspire to equal a beast, but they could in theory become as good as Vader or Palpatine (who are, after all, only human). At some point the PC is going to ask "when do I get to do that?", and there is no good mechanical answer.

As DaverWattra said, and it is the reason I love this system, NPCs are built differently than PCs. (It's also one of the good thing they changed about 5e, too). So my response has always been: "NPCs aren't built like PCs." The Adversary talent is a key reflection of this. I've not had players argue that issue either. Plus it is there in the CRB if they want to look for themselves. It'd be silly to look at, say, the Veteran Bounty Hunter and try to compare XP to a PC.

I've never done the DP flip and the villain gets away thing though, that is a bit much for a DP. I'd use a DP to affect the environment somehow to allow them to escape or something. But most of the time I just ensure the villain is rarely in a situation they can't escape from. Any real villain worth their salt will only face the PCs AFTER they have faced the BBEG's hordes of faceless minions, lieutenants, captains, and traps. If the PCs make it through all that they deserve to defeat the villain at that point.

Just another side, I build my major BBEGs fully realized. I do not have them grow with the PCs. Meaning, if the PCs somehow get to the BBEG when they only have 25 earned XP, then they will need to run from that encounter. But, once the PCs have 200+ earned XP, then game on!

9 hours ago, Edgehawk said:

I’m already implementing this, for the first time, and I’m not sure I like the result. The nemesis had the first initiative slot to begin with, so having the last slot as well seems a bit much (essentially 2 turns in a row at the end of the round/ start of the next).

The Nemesis doesn't HAVE to go in the first initiative slot, unless there are no other NPCs. But it is a lot more fun with they go two times in a row! The horror on players faces is great! Running away is always an option!

4 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

But it is a lot more fun with they go two times in a row! The horror on players faces is great! Running away is always an option!

Okay. So I may have enjoyed it a small bit.

@P-47 Thunderbolt @Rimsen Thanks for the input. I think the PQ is scaled acceptably, perhaps even overpowered, if not mostly isolated from her allies. She still has plenty of untapped resources at her disposal, and a pretty fair chance of getting away, without resorting to parlor tricks.

@all: I really just wanted to know if there was a universally (mostly) accepted, built-in game mechanic, to cover a quick nemesis escape. The PCs have an impressive resistance to force powers, and the encounter is probably going to take quite some time to resolve, one way or the other. I think we’ll let it play out, though.

9 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

On your last point: do your PCs ask "when do I get to do that?" about the Adversary talent?

No, but that's easy to explain, it's just a catch-all for all the different "Dodge-like" Talents to reduce book-keeping.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

The Nemesis doesn't HAVE to go in the first initiative slot, unless there are no other NPCs.

For my own part, I wouldn't use the "Nemesis gets two turns" ability unless there were no other NPCs. (If the backup NPCs got killed off and there were still several PCs left standing, then I would "turn the ability on" at that point.)

On 2/12/2020 at 2:20 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Possibly a better way to use DPs in the current situation would be to introduce something into the narrative that had not been previously accounted for, like a sleeper cell within the captured Imperial personnel, or some previously unaccounted for goons on the ship, or a transport shuttle that had been missed in the initial sweep (alternatively, something that wasn't supposed to, but actually did have a complement of reserve troops), or something to add to the encounter.

Was just thinking about this... is it RAW that the GM can/should ever spend DP to "introduce facts into the narrative"? In the CRBs the only ways they say the GM can spend DPs is through upgrading checks or using NPC abilities. The whole section about introducing facts is purely about players doing it.

It seems a bit odd that the GM should have to spend DP to do it, since introducing facts is basically the GM's whole job description.

Just now, DaverWattra said:

Was just thinking about this... is it RAW that the GM can/should ever spend DP to "introduce facts into the narrative"? In the CRBs the only ways they say the GM can spend DPs is through upgrading checks or using NPC abilities. The whole section about introducing facts is purely about players doing it.

It seems a bit odd that the GM should have to spend DP to do it, since introducing facts is basically the GM's whole job description.

No, I don't think it's RAW, but I like it for when the GM wants to add a twist to the situation or have a piece of bad luck befall the PCs. I don't use it all that often though, as it usually isn't necessary.

The main point is the bad luck aspect. It may be mostly aesthetic, but it just feels more fair to me. At the very least, it has a psychological effect on me as a GM, prompting me to feel more free to break away from my planning (that unassuming freighter that I mentioned in passing is actually carrying reinforcements! *flips a DP*).

18 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Was just thinking about this... is it RAW that the GM can/should ever spend DP to "introduce facts into the narrative"? In the CRBs the only ways they say the GM can spend DPs is through upgrading checks or using NPC abilities. The whole section about introducing facts is purely about players doing it.

It seems a bit odd that the GM should have to spend DP to do it, since introducing facts is basically the GM's whole job description.

I've never done it for anything major. Like you say, I have all the "facts" and run the universe. I can change the facts whenever I want ... even if the players should never know I've done so. Giving me a DP flip on top of all that seems like overkill.

I'm starting to dislike the DPs anyway. It's a neat concept in theory, but half the time I feel compelled to use it just to give the players something to work with in return. I'm considering switching to Savage World's "bennies" or something like that.

As to where you may have heard about flipping to let the big baddie get away, It is in the Age of Rebellion Beginner box adventure. You find the control room and flip a destiny point and the baddie ducks away through a concealed shaft back to the garage/hangar.

I just realized that I tend to use Destiny Flips and the Triumph/Despair mechanic almost interchangeably, at least when used to effect the narrative. The only difference, maybe, is that a DP flip might be a bit more random (whereas the Triumph/Despair would be more conditional upon the surrounding circumstances). Is this right(ish)?

That's more-or-less how I use it, at least.

16 hours ago, Edgehawk said:

I just realized that I tend to use Destiny Flips and the Triumph/Despair mechanic almost interchangeably, at least when used to effect the narrative. The only difference, maybe, is that a DP flip might be a bit more random (whereas the Triumph/Despair would be more conditional upon the surrounding circumstances). Is this right(ish)?

+1