Off the cuff, I agree with others that Second Nature seems considerably powerful, especially as broad as it is.

Perhaps, make Second Nature like some other Talents like Knowledge Specialization and Smooth Talker (yes I know they are skill related) and have the player choose a specific Talent they wish to be second nature?

Or possibly, make it like a Natural Talent, letting them choose any one skill and possibly drop the improved version.

Just random thoughts from my group while we break for food. 🤷‍♂️

As for the question of what other specs to add to flesh out the Jedi, our group really likes Kuallan's Jedi Temple Guard and will be using that in our Clone Wars game.

One of my players makes a really good point about adding another entry spec...Service Corp. A very generalist jack-of-all trades type spec. A little healing, a little social, etc. Maybe Well Rounded or 2 and possibly Well Traveled. Talents of that nature, but mostly stay away from combat, there's enough of that already.

30 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

So street smarts, confidence, intimidating, fearsome, plausible deniability, resolve, superior reflexes, and similar talents? Natural hunter let's you reroll perception and vigilance. Natural enforcer (reroll streetwise and coercion). Natural instructor (discipline leadership reroll). Conditioned, physical training. Going through specs to find talents that might fit.

start with the talents unique to this tree. not the stuff from other trees. so dont think about what you listed,

15 hours ago, Daeglan said:

start with the talents unique to this tree. not the stuff from other trees. so dont think about what you listed,

That would be second nature and improved second nature so more once per encounter and once per session abilities (e.g. seize the initiative). The list of talents (e.g. natural instructor) seem to be good at converting the spec to battle madter.

Go without is a once per session that let's you have the right tools for the job (appropriate for on the run character).

Intense focus might be appropriate.

Ought to remove sense danger because padawan has it but could replace with sense advantage which is a once per encounter.

Touch of fate is once per encounter.

Push aside seems appropriate to a blade master (and would help with being surrounded).

Multiple opponents seems appropriate (and occurs in at least 3 other specs).

Survivor's instincts from clone veteran seems highly appropriate to ronin and is a once per session.

1 hour ago, Jareth Valar said:

Off the cuff, I agree with others that Second Nature seems considerably powerful, especially as broad as it is.

Perhaps, make Second Nature like some other Talents like Knowledge Specialization and Smooth Talker (yes I know they are skill related) and have the player choose a specific Talent they wish to be second nature?

Or possibly, make it like a Natural Talent, letting them choose any one skill and possibly drop the improved version.

Just random thoughts from my group while we break for food. 🤷‍♂️

Maybe I've missed it, but ravage is the only once per encounter talent I've noticed so far.

There's invigorate which is sucky and "by the book". Also prepare to be boarded.

Maybe add a "this second use of the once per encounter talent cannot be used in the same round as the first use of the once per encounter talent" to the improved second nature talent to prevent double dipping on the same action.

But putting improved second wind at the end of a convoluted path, means they have to buy through most of the tree to get to it.... and that probably won't be worth it if ronin doesn't play to the concept as a whole.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

That would be second nature and improved second nature so more once per encounter and once per session abilities (e.g. seize the initiative). The list of talents (e.g. natural instructor) seem to be good at converting the spec to battle madter.

Go without is a once per session that let's you have the right tools for the job (appropriate for on the run character).

Intense focus might be appropriate.

Ought to remove sense danger because padawan has it but could replace with sense advantage which is a once per encounter.

Touch of fate is once per encounter.

Push aside seems appropriate to a blade master (and would help with surfing being surrounded).

Multiple opponents seems appropriate (and occurs in at least 3 other specs).

Survivor's instincts from clone veteran seems highly appropriate to ronin and is a once per session.

Those a way over powered talents. They are also not thematic to the theme you are trying to make. Ronin are not about getting to do a special ability an extra time. Im talkimg about stuff like sorry about the mess. Call'em guns blazin spitfirr those are the unique talents of gun slinger and they scream gunslinger.

You talents scream i want.all this stuff in one tree because i only want 2 specs in a character and to still have all this cool stuff from all these trees.

And survival instincts is another barrowed talent. It fits but is not what i am trying to get out of you.

You need to find the talents that are unique to jedi ronin and scream jedi ronin whem you look at them.

5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Maybe I've missed it, but ravage is the only once per encounter talent I've noticed so far.

There's invigorate which is sucky and "by the book". Also prepare to be boarded.

Maybe add a "this second use of the once per encounter talent cannot be used in the same round as the first use of the once per encounter talent" to the improved second nature talent to prevent double dipping on the same action.

But putting improved second wind at the end of a convoluted path, means they have to buy through most of the tree to get to it.... and that probably won't be worth it if ronin doesn't play to the concept as a whole.

What I was getting at was have Second Nature only work on a single once per encounter Talent, chosen when you take it. Same with Improved.

As for an actual number of Talents that are once per encounter and session, there are quite a few spread throughout the books. At least I seem to recall as much...away from books at the moment.

19 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So what 2 specs would you add to the Jedi Career? Cause i think it could use a couple more specs... i could see a jedi marshal/law enforcement spec and maybe the Temple gaurd spec kualan made...

To be honest, I'm not sure I would add extra specs. Apart from General (which is pretty niche in being a wartime path), the Jedi specs when taken in progression (Padawan, Knight, Master) cover a whole lot of basis, with enough freedom to let a PC tailor the character to be whatever it is they want to be while not stepping on the toes of some of more dedicated F&D specs.

I can see a case for a Guard spec that's a mix of bodyguarding and investigation, and maybe a dedicated lore expert (thematic blending of EotE's Scholar and AoR's Analyst with a dash of F&D's Sage), but again not sure I'd pursue them as being full-bore specializations.

On 2/6/2020 at 5:07 AM, EliasWindrider said:

So... with the downsizing at ffg we're probably not going to get 2 more jedi specs so that leaves room to fill out the career

Concept wise what's missing is a sort of rogue jedi... a quasi outsider before order 66 (maybe kind of sentinelish) like how quigon was an outsider, or a fully trained jedi on the run after order 66... not exactly a "grey" jedi but certainly not a poster boy for the order.

I was thinking of something like a cross between padawan survivor and force sensitive outcast + natural blademaster (because ronin/samurai) and 2 new talents "second nature" (once per encounter it lets you use a once per encounter ability, e.g. ravage, one additional time per encounter) and "second nature (improved)" (once per session it lets you use a once per session ability e.g. natural blade master one additional time per session)

Isn't almost every Force-sensitive career in the books except Jedi General perfectly fine a Jedi ronin?

Although the term ronin conjures up more dark-side kind of characters than good Jedi like Qui-gonn. Clone Wars Maul was a ronin, a masterless warrior who had struck out on his own.

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

Isn't almost every Force-sensitive career in the books except Jedi General perfectly fine a Jedi ronin?

Although the term ronin conjures up more dark-side kind of characters than good Jedi like Qui-gonn. Clone Wars Maul was a ronin, a masterless warrior who had struck out on his own.

To me the term ronin evokes an expert saberist who excels using a combination of ferocity and general skill (the blade is an extension of him) and perhaps fighting dirty rather than a particular form (so it's almost a half form), while having an uncanny nack of surviving perhaps through force of will and being distrustful of others/an outsider.

In the clone wars Maul does seem to fit ronin rather well... except he becomes the master to his brother savage.

So maybe replace second nature with ravage (improved) (maybe another conflict talent) that lets you use ravage once per round and second nature improved with "one with the blade" or "destiny's blade" or "destined bladmaster" which let's you use natural blade master additional times for the cost of flipping a destiny point.

Seems like resolve fits in the tree.

Maybe an "intimidating warrior" or "coerced miss" talent like coordination dodge except it uses coercion.

6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

To me the term ronin evokes an expert saberist who excels using a combination of ferocity and general skill (the blade is an extension of him) and perhaps fighting dirty rather than a particular form (so it's almost a half form), while having an uncanny nack of surviving perhaps through force of will and being distrustful of others/an outsider.

In the clone wars Maul does seem to fit ronin rather well... except he becomes the master to his brother savage.

then you should make talents that invoke that feel. your second nature talents do not invoke that.

6 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

To be honest, I'm not sure I would add extra specs. Apart from General (which is pretty niche in being a wartime path), the Jedi specs when taken in progression (Padawan, Knight, Master) cover a whole lot of basis, with enough freedom to let a PC tailor the character to be whatever it is they want to be while not stepping on the toes of some of more dedicated F&D specs.

I can see a case for a Guard spec that's a mix of bodyguarding and investigation, and maybe a dedicated lore expert (thematic blending of EotE's Scholar and AoR's Analyst with a dash of F&D's Sage), but again not sure I'd pursue them as being full-bore specializations.

How would you do Jedi Watchmen?

Ok here is take 2

Grit nobody's fool reflect parry

| |

Uncanny reactions - constant vigilance push aside --- parry

| |

Force rating Resolve Disorienting strike Destined Blademaster

| | | |

Grit ---- trust no one --- renegade form natural blademaster

| | |

Dedication coerced miss --- ravage --- ravage (improved)

Coerced miss is coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination.

Ravage (improved) let's you use ravage once per round instead of once per encounter

Destiny blademaster. Once per encounter as an out of turn incidental you may flip a destiny point to immediately use natural blade master despite having previously used natural blademaster this session.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

To me the term ronin evokes an expert saberist who excels using a combination of ferocity and general skill (the blade is an extension of him) and perhaps fighting dirty rather than a particular form (so it's almost a half form), while having an uncanny nack of surviving perhaps through force of will and being distrustful of others/an outsider.

Fair enough, but that is not at all what ronin were. What you're describing is pretty much your regular good samurai.

Ronin were mercenaries, bandits, beggars even... And they weren't particularly well known for being good swordsmen, or at least no better than regular samurai. They were failed samurai. They still were ex-samurai, with full samurai training.

44 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Ok here is take 2

Grit nobody's fool reflect parry

| |

Uncanny reactions - constant vigilance push aside --- parry

| |

Force rating Resolve Disorienting strike Destined Blademaster

| | | |

Grit ---- trust no one --- renegade form natural blademaster

| | |

Dedication coerced miss --- ravage --- ravage (improved)

Coerced miss is coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination.

Ravage (improved) let's you use ravage once per round instead of once per encounter

Destiny blademaster. Once per encounter as an out of turn incidental you may flip a destiny point to immediately use natural blade master despite having previously used natural blademaster this session.

What is your obsession with getting to use once per session abilities more than once per session? And what makes you think that says ronin? because that does not say ronin to me. That says I want to be cheesy to me. I would go watch old samurai movies and look for signature moves from those as good options. Because getting to use an ability an additional time is not exciting or iconic. **** look at some of the stuff in the L5R game for inspiration. IAIJutsu cuts would be iconic.

4 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Fair enough, but that is not at all what ronin were. What you're describing is pretty much your regular good samurai.

Ronin were mercenaries, bandits, beggars even... And they weren't particularly well known for being good swordsmen, or at least no better than regular samurai. They were failed samurai. They still were ex-samurai, with full samurai training.

So I was describing an ex samurai/outsider

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

So I was describing an ex samurai/outsider

You were kind of describing any of the saber trees. Quality of saber work is not what makes on a Ronin. Ronin is more of a social thing not a martial thing. So maybe think more along the lines of making the tree a tree of social twists.

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

To me the term ronin evokes an expert saberist who excels using a combination of ferocity and general skill (the blade is an extension of him) and perhaps fighting dirty rather than a particular form (so it's almost a half form), while having an uncanny nack of surviving perhaps through force of will and being distrustful of others/an outsider.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

then you should make talents that invoke that feel. your second nature talents do not invoke that.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

What is your obsession with getting to use once per session abilities more than once per session? And what makes you think that says ronin? because that does not say ronin to me. That says I want to be cheesy to me. I would go watch old samurai movies and look for signature moves from those as good options. Because getting to use an ability an additional time is not exciting or iconic. **** look at some of the stuff in the L5R game for inspiration. IAIJutsu cuts would be iconic.

See above, expert saberist extremely well practiced, surviving through force of wI'll and being distrustful of outsiders.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

You were kind of describing any of the saber trees. Quality of saber work is not what makes on a Ronin. Ronin is more of a social thing not a martial thing. So maybe think more along the lines of making the tree a tree of social twists.

Intent was a half saber tree half the other stuff. What would you recomend for the other stuff.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Intent was a half saber tree half the other stuff. What would you recomend for the other stuff.

I would recommend creating all new talents. maybe something coecion based. My biggest issue is your idea of new talents is basically you can do this cool ability again. And that is not really interesting or iconic. And with out anything like that my though is why even bother with a tree. You can get the effect you are looking for by taking a couple trees. If your goal is to reduce 2 trees into one I think that is a poor place to start from.

For a unique feel, I would make the Ronin tree the "dual-wielding sabers" spec.

For the swordsman half, I would put in two grit, two toughened, two ranks of Uncanny Reactions or Quick Strike to evoke that 'strike first' mentality, and two Force talents stolen from Gunslinger: "Jar'kai Technique" (my old 'suffer two strain to reduce the difficulty of dual-wielding sabers' idea), and "Heaven and Earth" ('When wielding two sabers, may flip Destiny point to add Force dice equal to Force rating, spending pips as advantage, and may spend two pips to engage another target within short range and assign any additional hits to that target.') It might step on Ataru's toes, but I think it's different enough.

The other half would have the Dedication, Constant Vigilance, two ranks of Streetwise, two ranks of Fearsome, and maybe something like two ranks of Sense Emotions?

13 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

For a unique feel, I would make the Ronin tree the "dual-wielding sabers" spec.

For the swordsman half, I would put in two grit, two toughened, two ranks of Uncanny Reactions or Quick Strike to evoke that 'strike first' mentality, and two Force talents stolen from Gunslinger: "Jar'kai Technique" (my old 'suffer two strain to reduce the difficulty of dual-wielding sabers' idea), and "Heaven and Earth" ('When wielding two sabers, may flip Destiny point to add Force dice equal to Force rating, spending pips as advantage, and may spend two pips to engage another target within short range and assign any additional hits to that target.') It might step on Ataru's toes, but I think it's different enough.

The other half would have the Dedication, Constant Vigilance, two ranks of Streetwise, two ranks of Fearsome, and maybe something like two ranks of Sense Emotions?

That sounds more like a Jarkai tree. Aside from the non saber half....

14 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

For a unique feel, I would make the Ronin tree the "dual-wielding sabers" spec.

For the swordsman half, I would put in two grit, two toughened, two ranks of Uncanny Reactions or Quick Strike to evoke that 'strike first' mentality, and two Force talents stolen from Gunslinger: "Jar'kai Technique" (my old 'suffer two strain to reduce the difficulty of dual-wielding sabers' idea), and "Heaven and Earth" ('When wielding two sabers, may flip Destiny point to add Force dice equal to Force rating, spending pips as advantage, and may spend two pips to engage another target within short range and assign any additional hits to that target.') It might step on Ataru's toes, but I think it's different enough.

The other half would have the Dedication, Constant Vigilance, two ranks of Streetwise, two ranks of Fearsome, and maybe something like two ranks of Sense Emotions?

I like this as well, especially since we will not be getting a Jarkai tree from FFG.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I would recommend creating all new talents. maybe something coecion based. My biggest issue is your idea of new talents is basically you can do this cool ability again. And that is not really interesting or iconic. And with out anything like that my though is why even bother with a tree. You can get the effect you are looking for by taking a couple trees. If your goal is to reduce 2 trees into one I think that is a poor place to start from.

I started by pitching a rough concept getting largely positive/encouraging feedback and incorporating the suggestions of several forum members into the first draft which is probably why it had the grab bag feel. I've been trying to adapt it to your feedback but either you've been changing that feedback or you been unclear about what you've intended to be communicate from the beginning.

I actually think that being practiced enough to repeatably pull off something cool on cue is thematic for a ronin/ronin/ex-samurai. In the case of ravage it seems like a half measure of a talent that would appear in a lightsaber form spec, which is kind of appropriate for force sensitive outcast because it's not even a half form. Having the full measure of the talent/split across two talents (ravage and ravage improved to let you use it once per round, to make it more like Hawkbat swoop or draw closer but minus moving to your opponent or moving your opponent to you) particularly when themed as succeeding through intense ferocity, seems remarkably appropriate for a half lightsaber ronin spec. But maybe destined blademaster is over the top and not thematically on point as it could be.

Making it more coercion based seems appropriate...

What if the reused "trust no one" talent was paired with matching new "trusted by no one" and "feared by all" talents... of course I need to figure out mechanical effects for them, but thematically would that work for you (generalized you, looking for feedback from anyone willing to give it)

7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I started by pitching a rough concept getting largely positive/encouraging feedback and incorporating the suggestions of several forum members into the first draft which is probably why it had the grab bag feel. I've been trying to adapt it to your feedback but either you've been changing that feedback or you been unclear about what you've intended to be communicate from the beginning.

I actually think that being practiced enough to repeatably pull off something cool on cue is thematic for a ronin/ronin/ex-samurai. In the case of ravage it seems like a half measure of a talent that would appear in a lightsaber form spec, which is kind of appropriate for force sensitive outcast because it's not even a half form. Having the full measure of the talent/split across two talents (ravage and ravage improved to let you use it once per round, to make it more like Hawkbat swoop or draw closer but minus moving to your opponent or moving your opponent to you) particularly when themed as succeeding through intense ferocity, seems remarkably appropriate for a half lightsaber ronin spec. But maybe destined blademaster is over the top and not thematically on point as it could be.

Making it more coercion based seems appropriate...

What if the reused "trust no one" talent was paired with matching new "trusted by no one" and "feared by all" talents... of course I need to figure out mechanical effects for them, but thematically would that work for you (generalized you, looking for feedback from anyone willing to give it)

My point it you need to create talents that do not involve making once per session abilities and are not grab bags stuff.
For example these

Ravage (improved) let's you use ravage once per round instead of once per encounter

Destiny blademaster. Once per encounter as an out of turn incidental you may flip a destiny point to immediately use natural blade master despite having previously used natural blademaster this session.
Are not interesting. and do not fit your theme. they are just I want to be able to use this other ability I like more.

Coercion Dodge is an interesting idea.

Consider how to do an Iaido strike. as that might be interesting...