So... with the downsizing at ffg we're probably not going to get 2 more jedi specs so that leaves room to fill out the career

Concept wise what's missing is a sort of rogue jedi... a quasi outsider before order 66 (maybe kind of sentinelish) like how quigon was an outsider, or a fully trained jedi on the run after order 66... not exactly a "grey" jedi but certainly not a poster boy for the order.

I was thinking of something like a cross between padawan survivor and force sensitive outcast + natural blademaster (because ronin/samurai) and 2 new talents "second nature" (once per encounter it lets you use a once per encounter ability, e.g. ravage, one additional time per encounter) and "second nature (improved)" (once per session it lets you use a once per session ability e.g. natural blade master one additional time per session)

Sounds pretty neat, you going to work it up?

Hmm. I'd probably also give it Constant Vigilance and a couple ranks of Uncanny Reactions, to fit the on-the-run, always looking over the shoulder nature of being a fugitive.

Maybe also, for the samurai/ronin mystique, the Exile's lovely Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes talents?

And for lethality, I'd give it something like Deathblow or a lightsaber equivalent to Deadly Accuracy.

Conceptually, much of what you're suggesting is already covered under Padawan Survivor, which by itself can be spun as a former Jedi that is no longer part of the Order, only for reasons other than Order 66.

Frankly, this sounds like another round of your attempts to make a perfect "I wannabe Jason Bourne!" Spy spec that at heart was a bunch of munchkin fodder.

If you really want to have elements of both Padawan Survivor and Force-Sensitive Outcast, buck up and pay the XP for both specs.

Dono is on the right track. However, I do like the concept.

In general, if I were to make a new spec that's really just a combination of 2 or more specs, I would severely water down those other specializations, remove the most iconic bottom tier talents and when I smash them together, create one or two talents that best identify what that specialization is all about.

However, maybe it would be best to see a rough tree of what you had in mind, and use that as a starting point for refinement.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Conceptually, much of what you're suggesting is already covered under Padawan Survivor, which by itself can be spun as a former Jedi that is no longer part of the Order, only for reasons other than Order 66.

Frankly, this sounds like another round of your attempts to make a perfect "I wannabe Jason Bourne!" Spy spec that at heart was a bunch of munchkin fodder.

If you really want to have elements of both Padawan Survivor and Force-Sensitive Outcast, buck up and pay the XP for both specs.

I think its a good idea and dont see a problem with homebrew material.

40 minutes ago, daggertx said:

I think its a good idea and dont see a problem with homebrew material.

2 hours ago, kaosoe said:

Dono is on the right track. However, I do like the concept.

In general, if I were to make a new spec that's really just a combination of 2 or more specs, I would severely water down those other specializations, remove the most iconic bottom tier talents and when I smash them together, create one or two talents that best identify what that specialization is all about.

However, maybe it would be best to see a rough tree of what you had in mind, and use that as a starting point for refinement.

42 minutes ago, daggertx said:

I think its a good idea and dont see a problem with homebrew material.

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Conceptually, much of what you're suggesting is already covered under Padawan Survivor, which by itself can be spun as a former Jedi that is no longer part of the Order, only for reasons other than Order 66.

Frankly, this sounds like another round of your attempts to make a perfect "I wannabe Jason Bourne!" Spy spec that at heart was a bunch of munchkin fodder.

If you really want to have elements of both Padawan Survivor and Force-Sensitive Outcast, buck up and pay the XP for both specs.

I think there is room for a couple other specs in the career. but I am not sure what they would be. but I think padawan surviver just being brought in as a full spec makes sense use the Padawan career skills as possible option. I think there is room for something else in the Jedi Career. I am just not sure what it would be. Maybe a Jedi marshal/ Arbiter... might be something... basically jedi law enforcement.

@Kualan added a spec for the Jedi Temple guards in his Heroes on Both Sides fan-made supplement:

2 hours ago, daggertx said:

...dont see a problem with homebrew material.

It's not so much homebrew material in and of itself (I've done plenty of that for a variety of RPGs), it's just the whole idea of making a specialization that is in effect a grab-bag of "the good talents" from multiple other specs, and being created simply to sidestep having to spend XP to purchase one or more additional specializations just to get the desired talents of the core specializations.

What he's proposed is very much a "best of all worlds" in that his latest pet character concept gets to start in the Jedi career (having access to a very nice selection of starting career skills) and choice talents from Padawan Survivor and Force-Sensitive Outcast without having to buy those actual specializations, along with a couple of talents that just on first pass are far too powerful; nowhere else have we seen a "use a re-roll ability more than once per session" as a talent.

Maybe but so what? I personally don’t worry that much about what other games use at there tables.

If the tree is OP when it gets posted then that can be debated.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's not so much homebrew material in and of itself (I've done plenty of that for a variety of RPGs), it's just the whole idea of making a specialization that is in effect a grab-bag of "the good talents" from multiple other specs, and being created simply to sidestep having to spend XP to purchase one or more additional specializations just to get the desired talents of the core specializations.

What he's proposed is very much a "best of all worlds" in that his latest pet character concept gets to start in the Jedi career (having access to a very nice selection of starting career skills) and choice talents from Padawan Survivor and Force-Sensitive Outcast without having to buy those actual specializations, along with a couple of talents that just on first pass are far too powerful; nowhere else have we seen a "use a re-roll ability more than once per session" as a talent.

So what 2 specs would you add to the Jedi Career? Cause i think it could use a couple more specs... i could see a jedi marshal/law enforcement spec and maybe the Temple gaurd spec kualan made...

The difficulty here is that F&D has already covered so many conceptual and mechanical areas, despite the refrain of those Careers/Specs being just one aspect of the long lost Jedi lore/training etc it really did fill out a lot of the specialization a Jedi could go into - it's biggest hole was a more generalist Career/Spec (though Niman Disciple was a great stand-in for this) and the Jedi Career has the (powerful) generalist covered with Padawan/Knight/Master. I just bring this up because as I ponder additional Jedi specs I keep hitting a concept that replicates what F&D already did. But that's boring so here goes...

Jedi Watchman - adding talents around self-reliance and survivability throwing in some minor boost to investigation/perception.

Jedi Battlemaster - a counter-part/reflection of the Master, being more focused on lightsaber use than on the Force than Master. Idea being a Jedi Padawan/Knight/Battlemaster would be the pinnacle of the use of the lightsaber.

Last, a GM could simply let a player pick one F&D Career and grant all those Career Specializations as in-career/universal Specializations for them.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Last, a GM could simply let a player pick one F&D Career and grant all those Career Specializations as in-career/universal Specializations for them.

We're doing something similar; if a character's backstory fits a specific spec the PC wants, the GM is granting them that spec for free ( one time ) using Oggdude's character generator rules: it's free and doesn't count against the scaling cost of future specs. Our Dowutin Guardian gets Colossus for free, the Jawa gets Scavenger, e.t.c.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

The difficulty here is that F&D has already covered so many conceptual and mechanical areas, despite the refrain of those Careers/Specs being just one aspect of the long lost Jedi lore/training etc it really did fill out a lot of the specialization a Jedi could go into - it's biggest hole was a more generalist Career/Spec (though Niman Disciple was a great stand-in for this) and the Jedi Career has the (powerful) generalist covered with Padawan/Knight/Master. I just bring this up because as I ponder additional Jedi specs I keep hitting a concept that replicates what F&D already did. But that's boring so here goes...

Jedi Watchman - adding talents around self-reliance and survivability throwing in some minor boost to investigation/perception.

Jedi Battlemaster - a counter-part/reflection of the Master, being more focused on lightsaber use than on the Force than Master. Idea being a Jedi Padawan/Knight/Battlemaster would be the pinnacle of the use of the lightsaber.

Last, a GM could simply let a player pick one F&D Career and grant all those Career Specializations as in-career/universal Specializations for them.

This^, though I'd have the Battlemaster be the pinnacle of his choice of any one type of weapon.

6 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's not so much homebrew material in and of itself (I've done plenty of that for a variety of RPGs), it's just the whole idea of making a specialization that is in effect a grab-bag of "the good talents" from multiple other specs, and being created simply to sidestep having to spend XP to purchase one or more additional specializations just to get the desired talents of the core specializations.

What he's proposed is very much a "best of all worlds" in that his latest pet character concept gets to start in the Jedi career (having access to a very nice selection of starting career skills) and choice talents from Padawan Survivor and Force-Sensitive Outcast without having to buy those dactual specializations, along with a couple of talents that just on first pass are far too powerful; nowhere else have we seen a "use a re-roll ability more than once per session" as a talent.

Dono, I respect your opinion, and the grab bag of talents is in general sage advice. However you're putting the cart before the horse in judging this proposed spec because you haven't seen it yet. Moreover your hypothesis that I am proposing this spec to benefit a character I want to create is dead wrong. I don't yet have a build in mind that *I* want to use the spec for. The purpose was to fill in what I see as gaps in the jedi career both conceptually and mechanically, and the spec as I've intended it can fit multiple character concepts, without stepping on the toes of other specs in the jedi career. You're generally sage advice doesn't in this case seem to have been adjusted to account for the peculiarities of the jedi career, in particular having one entry point (not counting short path to power) padawan, that is actually counter concept to a lot of concepts, so attaching a signature ability requires a second in career spec, and neither outcast nor padawan survivor qualify... so because of the peculiarities of the jedi career we're talking about 4 specs for the concept which is a bit excessive when it's intended to be thematic rather than a game mechanical I win button. So if you please reserve criticism until after you see the spec it would be appreciated... note that I do expect you and others to have criticisms, but what I'm going to propose shortly is intended to be a first draft for the purpose of providing a starting point for a design. Multiple viewpoints are generally better than one.

Haven't picked skills but as a first cut for talents which tried to take people's above suggestions into account (for example sixth sense, and precision strike as opposed to a lightsaber equivalent of deadly accuracy thematically they both represent extreme skill but deadly accuracy would be over the top imho)

I do need to drop a few talents to add one or more ranks of grit and possible a toughened but I wanted people's input on that

Reflect nobody's fool parry precision strike

| |

Uncanny reactions - constant vigilance --- parry --- secrets of the jedi

|

Force rating Sense danger Disorienting strike Improved second nature

| | | |

Sixth sense ---- trust no one --- renegade form natural blademaster

| | |

Dedication --- improved secrets of the jedi ravage --- second nature

Note that with this layout the cool stuff is locked behind several gateway talents including a conflict talent in the case of the extra use talents.

I was kind of thinking of getting unrelenting skeptic and improved unrelenting skeptic in there

Btw I was thinking of librarian for the 6th jedi spec and it might make more sense to move secrets of the jedi and improved to librarian (also a lot of lore related talents, maybe poach some from force adherant) my concept of ronin can substitute for battle master (choose the attribute for the lightsaber), ronin is intended to fill multiple roles.

54 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Haven't picked skills but as a first cut for tents which tried to take people's above suggestions into account (for example sixth sense, and precision strike as opposed to a lightsaber equivalent of deadly accuracy thematically they both represent extreme skill but deadly accuracy would be over the top imho)

I do need to drop a few talents to add one or more ranks of grit and possible a toughened but I wanted people's input on that

Reflect nobody's fool parry precision strike

| |

Uncanny reactions - constant vigilance --- parry --- secrets of the jedi

|

Force rating Sense danger Disorienting strike Improved second nature

| | | |

Sixth sense ---- trust no one --- renegade form natural blademaster

| | |

Dedication --- improved secrets of the jedi ravage --- second nature

Note that with this layout the cool stuff is locked behind several gateway talents including a conflict talent in the case of the extra use talents.

I was kind of thinking of getting unrelenting skeptic and improved unrelenting skeptic in there

Seems over powered and kind of grab baggy to me. Doesnt seem to have a real theme. And second nature seems way over powered.

The gateway talents do help and keep people from just cherry picking. I need to think about it some more.

What talents would you drop for the grit and toughened? Secrets of the Jedi?

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Seems over powered and kind of grab baggy to me. Doesnt seem to have a real theme. And second nature seems way over powered.

What limitations would you put on second nature and improved (only the improved version is good for the once per session reroll).

What else would you suggest dropping to make it less grab baggy/overpowered... maybe secrets of the jedi get moved to a librarian spec?

1 minute ago, daggertx said:

The gateway talents do help and keep people from just cherry picking. I need to think about it some more.

What talents would you drop for the grit and toughened? Secrets of the Jedi?

That was my inclination but I was looking for input from the community before making that decision

Well i think the issue is partially the theme is largely covered by the 2 trees you are squishing together

I think the better method. Syart with the theme and buold the abilities from that. Dont think about copying from other trees. And instead build the unique talents for the theme first. Then you can copy in a few filler talents from other trees that are appropriate.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well i think the issue is partially the theme is largely covered by the 2 trees you are squishing together

How would you make the theme more distinct? Perhaps enhance the blade master aspect? What talents besides secrets of the jedi would you kick out.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

How would you make the theme more distinct? Perhaps enhance the blade master aspect? What talents besides secrets of the jedi would you kick out.

Blade master is already covered by other trees. What makes a jedi Ronin unique. It is thir approach. It is what made them leave the order... so maybe things that make them independant...

15 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Blade master is already covered by other trees. What makes a jedi Ronin unique. It is thir approach. It is what made them leave the order... so maybe things that make them independant...

So street smarts, confidence, intimidating, fearsome, plausible deniability, resolve, superior reflexes, and similar talents? Natural hunter let's you reroll perception and vigilance. Natural enforcer (reroll streetwise and coercion). Natural instructor (discipline leadership reroll). Conditioned, physical training. Going through specs to find talents that might fit.