So, we had this odd combo this evening while trying out the new ships.

Demo rolls up next to an Onager, does his thing and gets an APT crit. My opponent uses all his defense tokens, namely, salvo. The APT crit pulled is Coolant Discharge which states, "Only one attack you preform each round can target a ship." He then suffers the other damage and gathers dice for salvo but decides to not preform the attack to keep his ignition attack for later in the round (but kept the salvo token flipped). Can you choose to not use the effect of a defense token in this manner? The rules insert for the Onager says "A ship can spend this defense token to perform a salvo attack after the Resolve Damage step" but I did not find a "may perform this attack" or similar wording which might release him from the effect.

The salvo token is not even spent until after the resolve damage step, which makes it very unusual. So your opponent would have been able to make that choice by not spending it.

You may to all intents and purposes choose not to resolve the effect of a spent redirect token. The rest, I believe, work one way or another once you have spent them (though they may have no effect based on the situation.)

The Salvo token is spent at the normal time.

It doesn’t resolve until afterwards.

This is the Way.

You can spend defense tokens for no effect, as long as you are spending them at the appropriate time.

This is the Way.

Indeed, there is precedent to suddenly not being able to make an attack you intended (Demolisher hitting a mine, as per a FAQ).

This is the Way.

You can spend a defense token but not use its effect. For example, a squadron attacks Devastator and rolls a blank. Devastator can spend its Brace, redirect and contain if it wishes.

9 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

You can spend defense tokens for no effect, as long as you are spending them at the appropriate time.

This is the Way.

So I understand you can spend a defense token when it doesn't do anything. What I'm not aware of is the ability to spend a defense token and then choose not to resolve its effect when that token would otherwise have an effect (e.g. brace on an attack dealing more than one damage.) Could you point me to the source?

Faceup damage card effects are always applied, and come into effect, immediately. Full stop.

So even though you spent that Salvo token, the "attack" for it doesn't happen until after the attack you are defending is fully resolved. Once it is resolved and you reach the "declare target" step of the salvo attack, you can choose to cancel the attack.

32 minutes ago, Karneck said:

you can choose to cancel the attack.

I'm not sure about that. Why can you cancel the attack? I mean, is there a rule allowing you to do that when the rule of the Salvo token doesn't give you a choice once the token was spent?

The only part of the attack rules that say that the attack is canceled is this:

"If the attacker cannot gather any dice appropriate for the range of the attack, the attack is canceled."

So if you have dice that can target the attacking hull zone (because that is the target and there is no choice there), you cannot cancel the attack.

At least is how I interpret it from the rules.

9 hours ago, Bertie Wooster said:

You can spend a defense token but not use its effect. For example, a squadron attacks Devastator and rolls a blank. Devastator can spend its Brace, redirect and contain if it wishes.

But you still resolve the defense steps - Devastator braces the damage from 0 to 0, redirects 0, then does not take a crit hull damage. While the end result was the same as if he didn't spend any tokens, each token's effect was resolved.

From the FAQ:

Quote

Q: Can a ship spend a defense token even if it would have no effect?
A: Yes. For example, a ship can spend a [Redirect] token and choose an adjacent hull zone with no shields remaining.

So you can spend a defense token even if it wouldn't do anything (redirect if no shields, evade at close range, Salvo even if you don't have range on the defender or have Depowered Armament etc.). When redirecting, you can choose not to benefit from it as you can choose to move 0 damage to an adjacent hull zone.

But is the effect of a defense token optional? Could you spend a brace and then not reduce the damage (e.g. to prevent token-farming or ramming)? Could you spend an Evade and not choose a die?

Quote

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

It isn't explicit, but I don't think the second part is optional; that you can not spend the defense token, and then choose not to resolve its effect. I don't think there is an explicit rule on this, but I'm basing that on analogy with command tokens. The effects of spending a command dial or token read as being mandatory (there's no "you may"). But it is long established that they are; a ship can spend a navigate token and not "increase or decrease the ship's speed by one" - it can keep it the same (usually for Engine Techs). It is explicit that you can, in the FAQ. Given this had to be changed in the FAQ, that implies this isn't the default.

In practice, if you spend a defense token and then realise you don't want to later (particularly a contain when the opponent has a special crit they're going to use), generally your opponent will let you undo spending it (if you ask nicely). But they don't have to.

So I'd go with "you can spend a Salvo token and choose not to attack." "if you spend a Defense Token you must resolve its effect." But based on a weak analogy to command tokens.

[Other examples like this - Sensor Team or Screed; spending a die but not changing another die. TRCs, exhausting the card/spending the token but not changing a die. I'm not feeling as happy about that being possible, as you shouldn't be able to trigger effects but not resolve them, otherwise why not do that with negative effects?]

14 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

It isn't explicit, but I think the second part is optional; that you can spend the defense token, and then choose not to resolve its effect. I don't think there is an explicit rule on this, but I'm basing that on analogy with command tokens. The effects of spending a command dial or token read as being mandatory (there's no "you may"). But it is long established that they are; a ship can spend a navigate token and not "increase or decrease the ship's speed by one" - it can keep it the same (usually for Engine Techs).

In practice, if you spend a defense token and then realise you don't want to later (particularly a contain when the opponent has a special crit they're going to use), generally your opponent will let you undo spending it (if you ask nicely). But they don't have to.

This what I was looking for. It matters, for instance, if you have a ship obstructing another ship’s shot to an enemy with APTs; if it gets the wrong crit the obstructing ship will have no shot and death may be better than living. Although the comparison to command tokens is a good precedent, it’s shaky RAW and I’d like to see an official ruling if we can’t find anything else.

Wait a minute. I missed the relevant FAQ thing. Page 4, under Commands:

Quote

This entry should include the following bullet point:

“A ship can resolve a command and choose not to produce its effect. It still counts as resolving that command, such as for the purpose of triggering upgrade cards.”

So it is RAW explicitly that you can resolve a command without actually producing its effect.

That makes my reasoning a lot weaker, so now I'm swinging to you having to take the attack.

I'm still trying to find other examples where you might have the option to do something to trigger an effect, but not want to experience that effect. Maybe Biggs, although the wording there is very different:

Quote

... you may reduce the total damage by 1. If you do, choose a friendly squadron ... That squadron suffers 1 damage.

That is triggered by you reducing the damage, with the effect being that another squadron suffers it. That would be broken if you could opt out of the effect.

Hm after further consideration. I will agree that it appears if you spend the Salvo token, and you get smacked with Coolant discharge. You are SOL. You are committed to the attack.