I'm a little bewildered by the way the way commanders work in the game. Not confused, I understand the rules mechanics, but it just seems odd to me. All the infantry units in the game come in squads, except for leaders (and operatives, I guess, I haven't used any of them yet). Leader work alone. Which seems odd (although I guess I can see why heroes like Luke or Vader might want to operate that way). Even a humble platoon commander in real armies has a few people assigned directly to him to help him run his force. This gets even odder when you look at the Specialist Personnel Expansion packs. In them you get an officer, a com tech, and two droids. But they can't work together, they can only be attached individually to other squads. Or the officer can be the force commander, but again he's alone. I'm wondering how many people actually make use of the droids and all since you have to give up a slot in the squads which could be used for another trooper?

It seems to me that there ought to be command squads. Maybe a squad comes with an officer as a default, but then with multiple personnel slots and maybe an equipment slot or two. So you could take an officer, a com tech, a droid and maybe one trooper for security. The officer would still function like the leader as normal, but he'd have his communications right at hand and a droid or two which he could use to help nearby units (or himself). Seems like this would make sense. I may experiment with something like that.

I'm not quite sure what your question is, seems more of a complaint about the fluff aspect of the game?

As for the droids, the current world champ Luke Cook just won LVO on the weekend with a list that had 2 droids in it so Droids certainly have a place in the game it seems.

Star Wars doesn't work like real life, so everything fall apart as soon as you try comparing it as such (Generals leading strike teams, heads of state on the battlefield, leadership by backflipping and lightsaber-chopping). Command Squads are a (mostly) 40k thing. I'm not against them in principle, but any time anyone tries to bring anything over from 40k I must resist the natural urge to reject it immediately. The game works great how it is. Now that they have the Counterpart rule, I could see adding other models to a 1-mini unit, but it definitely work. Your description of how a command squad would work seems to indicate you aren't really aware of how the game basically works (how adding models to a unit works, what a comms specialist actually does, etc.). Perhaps you should give it a few tries before you start suggesting extensive house-ruling?

At first, I found it a little odd that some commanders wander around on their own too. Mostly because I don't protect Krennic enough and he's very squishy. I think having extra ablative wound would make some commanders far too durable, but could make for an interesting idea for specific characters as a form of super-entourage ability.

7 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Star Wars doesn't work like real life, so everything fall apart as soon as you try comparing it as such (Generals leading strike teams, heads of state on the battlefield, leadership by backflipping and lightsaber-chopping). Command Squads are a (mostly) 40k thing. I'm not against them in principle, but any time anyone tries to bring anything over from 40k I must resist the natural urge to reject it immediately. The game works great how it is. Now that they have the Counterpart rule, I could see adding other models to a 1-mini unit, but it definitely work. Your description of how a command squad would work seems to indicate you aren't really aware of how the game basically works (how adding models to a unit works, what a comms specialist actually does, etc.). Perhaps you should give it a few tries before you start suggesting extensive house-ruling?

I can assure you that command squads are not a "40K thing" 40K has them because real armies have them and real armies have them because they work. I'm not saying that they will necessarily work for Legion, but I'm going to do some experimenting. I'm not going to reject the idea just because 40K has something similar.

Command Squads are gone from 40k. It's not a good concept (for wargames) and I don't think it'll be in Legion anytime soon.

21 hours ago, Achinadav said:

At first, I found it a little odd that some commanders wander around on their own too. Mostly because I don't protect Krennic enough and he's very squishy. I think having extra ablative wound would make some commanders far too durable, but could make for an interesting idea for specific characters as a form of super-entourage ability.

Have you tried the imperial royal guards? They work fine to extend krennic existence

22 hours ago, Achinadav said:

At first, I found it a little odd that some commanders wander around on their own too. Mostly because I don't protect Krennic enough and he's very squishy. I think having extra ablative wound would make some commanders far too durable, but could make for an interesting idea for specific characters as a form of super-entourage ability.

Guardian X exists.

Do you have a citation of "real armies?" Coming from historical gaming, most systems don't allow for "command squads" either (at the platoon level), just an LT with one or two assistants, which is arguably represented here by multiple wounds. Alternately, some allow the commander to "attach" to a pre-existing squad, but that isn't a command squad. Esteemed leader has a similar effect as "attaching" a leader in other games.

19 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Do you have a citation of "real armies?" Coming from historical gaming, most systems don't allow for "command squads" either (at the platoon level), just an LT with one or two assistants, which is arguably represented here by multiple wounds. Alternately, some allow the commander to "attach" to a pre-existing squad, but that isn't a command squad. Esteemed leader has a similar effect as "attaching" a leader in other games.

Organization of US Rifle Company in WWII. https://www.battleorder.org/us-army-rifle-co-1945 Scroll down to the platoon organization.

Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer and 4 Enlisted)

• 1× Platoon Commander , Second or First Lieutenant (OF-1), armed with 1 M1 Carbine

• 1× Platoon Sergeant , Technical Sergeant (OR-7), armed with 1 M1 Rifle

• 1× Platoon Guide , Staff Sergeant ( OR-6), armed with 1 M1 Rifle

• 2× Messengers , Private (OR-1) to Technician 4th Grade (OR-5), armed with 1 M1 Rifle each

German Platoon in early WWII

Platoon HQ

Platoon HQ Leader with Rifle

1 Messenger with Rifle

1 Messenger with Rifle

1 Messenger with Sniper Rifle

1 Medic with Pistol

Most other armies were similar.

20 minutes ago, ScottWasburn said:

Organization of US Rifle Company in WWII. https://www.battleorder.org/us-army-rifle-co-1945 Scroll down to the platoon organization.

That's what I said, a commander and a couple assistants. The messengers are tasked with running between the squads or regimental command, not entering combat alongside the Platoon leader.

Not to mention that the organizational charts were frequently ignored in actual combat.

37 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

That's what I said, a commander and a couple assistants. The messengers are tasked with running between the squads or regimental command, not entering combat alongside the Platoon leader.

Not to mention that the organizational charts were frequently ignored in actual combat.

That's all I'm suggesting. In Legion terms, the messengers equate to a com-tech and a droid. Plus a platoon sergeant to guide and guard that shave-tail lieutenant. They would all definitely stick with him in combat.

1 hour ago, ScottWasburn said:

That's all I'm suggesting. In Legion terms, the messengers equate to a com-tech and a droid. Plus a platoon sergeant to guide and guard that shave-tail lieutenant. They would all definitely stick with him in combat.

And as other have said, Star Wars is not reality for one thing. When did Luke have some nobody running around with him to protect him? Also, as you yourself posted, the Germans only had runners and a medic "assigned" to the LT, so no platoon sergeant "bodyguard" there. If the messengers are WITH the platoon leader that's only because they weren't in the process of doing their main job: running messages. So they weren't there to fight alongside the LT, they were there to carry messages between locations. Same goes for the Medic (which also SHOULDN'T be fighting due to the rules of war) and should be running between casualties.

In actual combat, you also have squads breaking into smaller elements and reforming, especially in WW2. It was very common for the machine gun to be detached while the more mobile rifle armed soldiers maneuvered. In addition to the Pla toon leaders attaching themselves to a combat squad. They weren't fighting by themselves with their "command squad," they were embedded into a squad, possible bouncing around between them as the situation warranted. Not to mention there are documented instances of squads not having the "correct" armament due to "requisitioning" additional weapons such as BARs or Thompson submachine guns. My grandfather was issued a Thompson submachine gun, but exchanged it for first a Garand, then an M1 carbine (he used to hunt deer, so prefered a rifle to an SMG). Paper organization and actual organization often widely differed (at least in the US Army during WW2).

For simplicity's sake, most wargames don't allow for squads to reform in the course of the game, focusing on the paper organization rather than representing the actual organization.

Well, the British platoon HQ consisted of:

"The Platoon Headquarters was headed by the Platoon Commander, a Subaltern or grade of Lieutenant. His Second-in-Command was the Platoon Sergeant, the platoon's one authorized Sergeant. The platoon's Batman—the Platoon Commander's assistant given his status as an officer—generally doubled as a Signaller—Commonwealth parlance for a radio operator. As radio operators are traditionally glued at the hip to whichever personnel they serve, be it a commander or forward observer, this makes sense. The Platoon Headquarters also had 1 Orderly—who acted as a foot messenger."

And since the Empire is obviously British, this could easily apply to the Stormtrooper units

More seriously, any force commander is going to need people assisting him. It's too big a job to do while also shooting at the enemy and trying not to get shot in return.

As I noted in my original post, I wasn't suggesting that the heroes be treated like this. We generally see Luke on his own (although for that matter, how often do we actually see Luke in command of anyone else?)

So trained officers in your opinion would need more support leading a platoon than a farmboy from a backwater planet with magic powers, a princess, or a smuggler?

But two things:

Firstly Legion is a game, not a simulation, and a game which strives for relative simplicity. Games prefer "balance" and "fun" over "perfect recreation." In order to have a command "squad" of multiple miniatures, the points would have to go up since each (non-droid) assistant would be armed, making a bigger damage pool. Additionally, every time that unit took a wound, it would loose a special rule.

Secondly, Star Wars is science fantasy with space wizards and droids. Put a mouse droid on the base of your officer and now he has an assistant.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

So trained officers in your opinion would need more support leading a platoon than a farmboy from a backwater planet with magic powers, a princess, or a smuggler?

But two things:

Firstly Legion is a game, not a simulation, and a game which strives for relative simplicity. Games prefer "balance" and "fun" over "perfect recreation." In order to have a command "squad" of multiple miniatures, the points would have to go up since each (non-droid) assistant would be armed, making a bigger damage pool. Additionally, every time that unit took a wound, it would loose a special rule.

Secondly, Star Wars is science fantasy with space wizards and droids. Put a mouse droid on the base of your officer and now he has an assistant.

Well, when do we ever see Luke actually commanding anything? The Battle of Yavin, he's just a fighter pilot. Yes, he sort of takes command to lead the final attack after his squadron leader is killed, but his orders are basically just 'follow me, boys!' Leia clearly has some command experience from working with Bail Organa. In Rogue One he refers to her as one of his best agents. But when we see her actually in a command position, like on Hoth, she's surrounded by staff. Han had experience in the Imperial Army. And actually when you think about it, his one real tactical ground command is on Endor where he very definitely has a "command squad" consisting of himself, Leia, Chewie, and the two droids!

I fully agree with keeping things simple, but I don't see having a command squad as making things particularly more complicated. It would not be much different than an ordinary squad where you could add (or lose) a heavy weapon.

But each to his own. You clearly don't like this--so don't do it! I really doubt that Fantasy Flight is going to listen to me, either. But I shall experiment with it and see how it goes.

Leia isn't in charge of a platoon in combat on Hoth, she's helping organize the base evacuation. Completely different scale.

On Endor, that's not a "Squad" in game terms, since they do not stay in any sort of cohesion. That's a Commander and two Operatives, one of which has Teamwork.

If you want to houserule it fine, have fun. I'm just pointing out that's not really shown to be a thing in Star Wars the way you mean it. In Clone Wars we see Rex and Cody deployed as individuals, often attaching themselves to other independent squads, but no dedicated "command squad" that always stays together. Similar to keeping squads within command radius of one of your officers.

"We're fightin' spiders on Pluto, we're ALL insane!" (Taken from the Starship Troopers CGI series...) 🥴

Respectfully,

Gunny 🤘

When you consider that, scaling wise, a SW Legion Battlefield is about the same size as an American Football Pitch, all attempts to correlate it to a real life military operation fall apart.

2 hours ago, Indy_com said:

When you consider that, scaling wise, a SW Legion Battlefield is about the same size as an American Football Pitch, all attempts to correlate it to a real life military operation fall apart.

I can't say this enough.

Well, the old 'figure scale -vs- ground scale' conundrum has plagued miniature wargaming almost from the start. It's nothing new. And yet all those other games deal with it in one fashion or another and still try to 'correlate to real life military operations'. Often quite successfully. Sorry if I'm belaboring this, but I've been a wargame player and designer for almost 60 years. I'm a military historian and a published author and when I see something that doesn't make sense to me, I instinctively try to find a way to correct it. I fully understand that most people don't want to deal with such things and just want to play the game.

Well the generic officer comes in both individual unit and squad upgrade so whats the problem?

Characters like Leia and krennic can take the upgrade card esteemed leader and be protected by other squads.

@ScottWasburn Besides the small scale size of the board, there are further, bigger realism issues including but not limited to the following: all weapon ranges determined from the unit leader, all cover determined only from the unit leader (which leads to the situation where a target that is out of LoS of the unit leader gets heavy cover, even if in the open to the rest of the squad), the Range 3 hole in Entourage orders with Commanding Presence, direct fire ion weapons affecting an entire SQUAD of droids, Force Push not allowing for pushing a unit off of an elevated piece of terrain, and the ease of punching fast moving speeder units (it's easier to kill them in melee than shooting since they don't get cover).

So if you want to make Legion more "realistic," you have a LOT of work to do before worrying about "Command Squads."

Maybe, but I have to start somewhere

31 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@ScottWasburn Besides the small scale size of the board, there are further, bigger realism issues including but not limited to the following: all weapon ranges determined from the unit leader, all cover determined only from the unit leader (which leads to the situation where a target that is out of LoS of the unit leader gets heavy cover, even if in the open to the rest of the squad), the Range 3 hole in Entourage orders with Commanding Presence, direct fire ion weapons affecting an entire SQUAD of droids, Force Push not allowing for pushing a unit off of an elevated piece of terrain, and the ease of punching fast moving speeder units (it's easier to kill them in melee than shooting since they don't get cover).

So if you want to make Legion more "realistic," you have a LOT of work to do before worrying about "Command Squads."

Plus he doesn't seem that familiar with how this game works, and doesn't realize that if you add a model (like, say, a Comms Specialist) it becomes another copy of the models(s) on the unit card, PLUS whatever is on the card. If you added a Comms Specialist to Luke, THAT DUDE IS ANOTHER ENTIRE LUKE but with a Comms upgrade slot. Granted, a Counterpart upgrade could have the effect that he wants, but it would take a bit more work than just slapping together the stuff we have like he seems to be assuming would work.