We're about to run l5r 5e for the first time and we really want combat to be extremely deadly. The vanilla non-grittier rules make it seem like the GM or a player would have to be really, really trying to kill someone for there to be a death - and things like accidental deaths in duels seem impossible. We don't intend on having constant combat, but we want it to seem extremely dangerous. How do the grittier rules from the back of the book hold up?

I've read the book in its entirety but haven't gotten a chance to play with it beyond a quick simulated duel between two NPCs and my impression is that the +4 deadliness will make brutal deaths after getting limbs severed more common, which is nice, but that even what would have normally been glancing blows from razor edges weapons like knives are now going to be likely to cause frequent quick Bleeding deaths. So I'm thinking of maybe instead of a Void point to not die at the end of a bleeding round there's instead a Void Point to avoid getting the Dying condition with a longer clock or something.

Anyway, what have been your experiences with the grittier rules and trying to create a more lethal combat system in general?

It really depends what you are looking for.

Accidental "death" when a lucky attack happens?

I think my houserules really amp the "deadly" feel of the game as the tweaks bypass the illogic and unfun design of the core system when it comes to fights and wounds. I invite you to read them.

On top of that, some kind of increase to deadliness can be implemented (maybe some kind of stacking, like SWrpg does). But that would require some system mastery before you get into that. I suggest you start with slight tweaks like I propose in my houserules (earth stance, incapacitated condition, and improvement to the critical table). It already makes the combat feels more edgy.

Also remember, if the opponent is Incapacitated, and you hit + spend opportunity to crit them, your second critical hit will be at +10 (because the opponent will be unconscious, unless he have Void points left).
To make it certain that an incapacitated opponent takes a savage wound, you can make it so that when incapacitated all crits you take are at +5, which is similar to the "extra gritty" rule, but only happens when making "final blows" on opponents, which is more cinematic.

Thanks for your reply. I'll check out your rules. I know incapacitation makes super deadly strikes more likely but as the rules stand in the core it means the only real deaths that seem likely are one opponent executing an exhausted opponent. I like the idea of opponents dueling until one gets a lucky strike in that finishes the fight.

37 minutes ago, NitroXanax said:

Thanks for your reply. I'll check out your rules. I know incapacitation makes super deadly strikes more likely but as the rules stand in the core it means the only real deaths that seem likely are one opponent executing an exhausted opponent. I like the idea of opponents dueling until one gets a lucky strike in that finishes the fight.

Yeah, I had the same issue. Not liking the fact that you can only hurt seriously by "executing".

My houserule (which are not really mine, but a collection of rules that many people suggested) should suit your fancy, with only minimal changes. Very easy and safe to apply.

Let me know!

We played a few games with the Grittier Rules because my group, too, thought that deadliness in 5R5 was meager. It did not work very well. The +4 Deadliness on the weapons actually make Critical Strikes worthwhile but it does not necessarily increase deadliness. It will cause a lot more injuries tho. The change on Bleeding and the festering rule are both good sources of depthless player rage as their characters die randomly. Also, Endurance/Fatigue is not affected at all, so people can still tank attacks they only have to fear criticals and certain techniques (Flowing Water Strike becomes super deadly) more.

If you want increased deadliness then my proposal would be:

• No soaking against critical damage (this is like the +4 Deadliness)
• You can use Finishing Blow in every conflict type, not only Duels

Removing soaking is hardcore. It is the only way a character can defend themselve with skill. I suggest keeping it as is.

Using finishing blows in every conflicts is an interesting option. Though, personally I find them a bit too swingy depending on the weapon type. Meaning some weapons will most obviously kill all the time and others will never do much (looking at you tetsubo). There is also the big question; when would that finishing blow trigger??

You need to start looking at the core broken parts of the system before thinking of fixes. I think the Incapacitated condition is the major culprit in how it breaks fun and rythm. Earth stance is probably a close second.

Because, I don't think you want one shot kill on the first attack. That is extremely abusable, just leave that to heartpiercing strike. But when a character is out of endurance, you should have a chance to perform that killing blow without feeling like the combat is already over and you are just killing helpless people.

In the best of cases, combat should be hitting fatigue, and sometimes doing a small crit, breaking armor or forcing the opponent into using sub optimal rings, until they are in the "danger" zone of being killed and then doing the cinematic killing blow.

How to achieve that is what needs to be figured out.

The +4 deadliness gritty rule is garbage. It makes earth stance even more boringly godly and it breaks some techniques (hello iaijutsu strikes and heartpiercing strike).

The "you die unless you spend a void point" if you bleed is even more garbage. Totally unfun.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

It is the only way a character can defend themselves with skill.

That would be the Guard action aka "Say NO to Crit" and/or using Air/Earth Stance.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

There is also the big question; when would that finishing blow trigger??

That ain't a big question, it is literally in its rules: the first time you get Compromised or Unmask, your opponents get the chance to Finishing Blow you. If you are gud, you will be safe (mostly). If you are caught out of guard then you are ded (mostly).

11 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

That would be the Guard action aka "Say NO to Crit" and/or using Air/Earth Stance.

That ain't a big question, it is literally in its rules: the first time you get Compromised or Unmask, your opponents get the chance to Finishing Blow you. If you are gud, you will be safe (mostly). If you are caught out of guard then you are ded (mostly).

The fitness resist check is the main form of defense, at least, that is how you stay alive (against the only things that can kill you: finishing blows and taking a crit while unconscious).

Re:Finishing Blows:
Just a regular finishing blow? And it triggers for everybody in range of you when you unmask? No thank you. And really doesn't help the flow of combat.


back to the drawing board sir.

23 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

back to the drawing board sir

The proposal is for a "quick and dirty" solution. Knowing your preferences you probably don't want to know what abomination I actually have on my drawing board .

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

The proposal is for a "quick and dirty" solution. Knowing your preferences you probably don't want to know what abomination I actually have on my drawing board .

"quick and clean" like a perfect Katana strike. That's what you should strive for