So after deciding I wanted to play a Kaminoan, and after finding out they weren't just in Rise of the Seperatists but also in Fully Operational (for Engineers) and are depicted as being well-suited for Engineer, and being interesting species to play a rebel, I also stumbled upon Crafting and Droid Crafting in Special Modifications.

So, my GM at first was reluctant to implement cloning, primarily because it had no rules bearings, but... I've since brought to his attention that if Technician can use the crafting process to craft a Droid (an eligible PC species) capable of *combat* even, then it's not too unreasonable to change Droid to Clone, chassis template with genetic template, and a few other minor things, and I could legitimately strive to make clones. My GM is interested now.

Lastly, considering it makes sense, and they're in the book, Engineer *does* seem like a good fit. Now, Scientist seems like the most appropriate, but its skills and talent tree don't quite do the trick for a would-be cloner the way some other specializations do for characters that plan on crafting, especially droid crafting. So I'm considering attempting to homebrew a "Bio-Engineer" specialization that includes some similarities with the Doctor specialization for Colonists and other specializations that reference crafting directly or indirectly (with some similar structure to Scientist) and I was hoping someone had some advice for me.

I like this idea. But since clones are grown and not build, it would still be a much more time consuming process than building a droid.

According to Wookieepedia the Kaminoan clones aged twice as fast as a normal human. This would mean 7-9 years for an adult clone. Speeding up this process even further should either be impossible or come with an extreme setback, e.g. unstable biomaterial (clones might spontaneously liquify) or mentally unstable/underdeveloped clones (yeah, you made a perfect clone of the Moff, but he acts, speaks and thinks like a 4 year old...).

So it might only be useful in game if you either cover a really long time period in your campaign or if the GM allows for you to have started the cloning process in the past.

Best of luck!

Fred

Well, as far as "crafting" the clone goes, I plan on it taking the same time as an equivalent droid, however, taking a few days to complete work on a Droid actually yields the droid you were building, taking that same time to "complete" a clone, you essentially get a newborn that will age 2x as fast and is almost guaranteed to do what it is asked at ages it is capable.

I primarily plan on cloning for profit, but charging less because for the most part, early game I won't be able to do what the entire planet of Kamino did in Ep. II (clonesit and teach and everything until they are the desired age) but might eventually build up what I can afford to do and offer clones to the rebellion, which is essentially having them simultaneously adopt and recruit. They get babies that are guaranteed to be grown-up rebels lol

Still just wondering how cloning would mechanically fit in. What character choices make droid crafting better/easier?

I don't think cloning is practicable in-game in the same way as droid-crafting, largely because of the additional infrastructure and facilities required, as well as the time needed for growth and training.

Something to consider is the Spaarti cloning cylinders from the Thrawn Novels. If you are unfamiliar, here is the gist of it: by using Ysalamiri to block the force, Thrawn was able to grow and train clones in as little as a month, while at the same time preventing them from developing clone madness, a condition inversely proportional to the amount of time spent growing (the faster they grew, the more insane they were). While I still do not think that cloning is something you can do like you would droid crafting, playing a cloner is more viable, with missions to get/design/etc. cloning cylinders and their ilk, to acquire Ysalamiri, or to recruit a suitable template.

Here's how I'd handle it for "clone crafting" given facilities (probably Spaarti cloning cylinders) and time:

Skills used: Bio-engineering instead of Mechanics, provided your GM is on board with a new skill, and Knowledge (Education) instead of Computers

Clone Template (Droid Chassis): Specific Characteristic build based on a template, but not exceeding -3 Characteristic points below the template, to a minimum of +3 Characteristic points above their species start, with an option to increase characteristic points by one, provided that it doesn't exceed a characteristic of the template. For setting difficulty, you total up the number of Characteristic points past the species start and then divide by 2, rounding up. For example, with a Master Hunter NPC statblock from the EotE CRB (let's assume human), his 443333 build is 8 above his species start. A clone of this template would have a difficulty of Hard, and would have 5 characteristic points to add onto the species start, allowing a build of 342332, for example. You can voluntarily reduce the number of characteristic points to reduce the difficulty.
Each characteristic can only be reduced by a maximum of one (i.e. Template at 4, clone at 3).

WT is determined by adding Brawn to the species starting value, or, in the case of minions, is automatically set to 5.

Flash Training (Programming): Specific skill sets and talents, handled much the same way as Programming in Droid Crafting.

I don't think "clone crafting" is a good idea, but those are my thoughts on it. If you only intend to make them and sell them, a better way to go about it might be to not worry about their stats and just have a check of X difficulty that renders a successful clone. You'd still need appropriate facilities, though.

As for spec, I'd suggest talking to your GM about doing a kit-bash of the Scientist tree and a clone-ified Droid Tech/Droid Specialist tree.

3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I don't think cloning is practicable in-game in the same way as droid-crafting, largely because of the additional infrastructure and facilities required, as well as the time needed for growth and training.

Something to consider is the Spaarti cloning cylinders from the Thrawn Novels. If you are unfamiliar, here is the gist of it: by using Ysalamiri to block the force, Thrawn was able to grow and train clones in as little as a month, while at the same time preventing them from developing clone madness, a condition inversely proportional to the amount of time spent growing (the faster they grew, the more insane they were). While I still do not think that cloning is something you can do like you would droid crafting, playing a cloner is more viable, with missions to get/design/etc. cloning cylinders and their ilk, to acquire Ysalamiri, or to recruit a suitable template.

Here's how I'd handle it for "clone crafting" given facilities (probably Spaarti cloning cylinders) and time:

Skills used: Bio-engineering instead of Mechanics, provided your GM is on board with a new skill, and Knowledge (Education) instead of Computers

Clone Template (Droid Chassis): Specific Characteristic build based on a template, but not exceeding -3 Characteristic points below the template, to a minimum of +3 Characteristic points above their species start, with an option to increase characteristic points by one, provided that it doesn't exceed a characteristic of the template. For setting difficulty, you total up the number of Characteristic points past the species start and then divide by 2, rounding up. For example, with a Master Hunter NPC statblock from the EotE CRB (let's assume human), his 443333 build is 8 above his species start. A clone of this template would have a difficulty of Hard, and would have 5 characteristic points to add onto the species start, allowing a build of 342332, for example. You can voluntarily reduce the number of characteristic points to reduce the difficulty.
Each characteristic can only be reduced by a maximum of one (i.e. Template at 4, clone at 3).

WT is determined by adding Brawn to the species starting value, or, in the case of minions, is automatically set to 5.

Flash Training (Programming): Specific skill sets and talents, handled much the same way as Programming in Droid Crafting.

I don't think "clone crafting" is a good idea, but those are my thoughts on it. If you only intend to make them and sell them, a better way to go about it might be to not worry about their stats and just have a check of X difficulty that renders a successful clone. You'd still need appropriate facilities, though.

As for spec, I'd suggest talking to your GM about doing a kit-bash of the Scientist tree and a clone-ified Droid Tech/Droid Specialist tree.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, we'll probably work out those kind of details soon, tell me a little bit of what you mean by "kit-bash" of the Scientist tree and "a clone-ified Droid Tech/Droid Specialist tree."

My GM's first instinct is maybe substitute Medicine for Mechanics, perhaps using the clone's starting wounds as a gauge.

28 minutes ago, Do_It said:

Thanks for the suggestions so far, we'll probably work out those kind of details soon, tell me a little bit of what you mean by "kit-bash" of the Scientist tree and "a clone-ified Droid Tech/Droid Specialist tree."

My GM's first instinct is maybe substitute Medicine for Mechanics, perhaps using the clone's starting wounds as a gauge.

Oops. Somehow I forgot about Medicine.

By "Kit-bash" I mean take talents like Deft Maker and Eye for Detail and the like, maybe substitute talents like Stimpack Specialization or Surgeon for things like Machine Mender and Repair Patch Specialization (which is in the Droid Specialist tree), and then replace talents like Redundant Systems, Speaks Binary, Hidden Storage, etc.

So I'm noticing that if nothing else, certain rules were designed to work with (droid) crafting before the rules were introduced in Special Modifications, so does that mean the Inventor talent on the Scientist tree *basically* says "When crafting, or modifying attachments, add [boost] or remove [setback] per rank of Inventor"?

Also, I'm curious if the default Clone species in Rise of the Seperatists has characteristics of 222222 reflecting their nature as clones of Jango Fett, or reflecting their nature as clones in general. While the exact way to go about cloning them and causing them to reach the level of completion a newly crafted droid has is something we'll need to work on, (Tbh the chore of having infantile clones might add an interesting roleplaying element, I've yet to watch The Mandalorian, but it might have its entertaining perks to raise the clones. My first in-game clone will definitely be capable of tending to other newer clones) but I'm picturing how actually treating the acquisition of templates and their differences as actual genetic templates could make things interesting based on WHOSE genetic templates they are (perhaps various NPCs could yield different genetic templates)

21 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Oops. Somehow I forgot about Medicine.

By "Kit-bash" I mean take talents like Deft Maker and Eye for Detail and the like, maybe substitute talents like Stimpack Specialization or Surgeon for things like Machine Mender and Repair Patch Specialization (which is in the Droid Specialist tree), and then replace talents like Redundant Systems, Speaks Binary, Hidden Storage, etc.

Ohhh okay, yeah, there we go, that sounds right. Lol uhhh any advice on what, maybe, could be appropriate replacements for Speaks Binary, Hidden Storage, and maybe Tinkerer?

I know cloning in place of droid crafting IS a bit of a stretch, but would it be TOO far-fetched for some other biological/genetic thing to be substituted for a mechanical thing? (For example, certain cybernetics being organic implants/genetic modification?)

Basically, if my GM said no to cloning altogether just because, I would have stubbornly went with Kaminoan Colonist - Doctor I guess just to go ham on the biology field of expertise and mentioned how cloning was such a beautiful talent of my species, too bad it was beyond my reach 😓 So just curious what other minor capabilities in the same field could support the rebel alliance (in much the same way a character who crafted droids could still be useful by building/repairing other mechanical things) I'm sure basic Doctor/Medic talents might be fine, but just like a character could craft, repair, reprogram, and other wise make great use of droids or against them, I'm curious what other biological things I could contribute. I have an inkling that I'll primarily use weaponry with medical implications like the anasthesis dart for example.

11 minutes ago, Do_It said:

Ohhh okay, yeah, there we go, that sounds right. Lol uhhh any advice on what, maybe, could be appropriate replacements for Speaks Binary, Hidden Storage, and maybe Tinkerer?

For these, you could put in additional ranks of Bacta/Stimpack Specialist or Surgeon, but that's where some talents from Scientist come in. Just splice in some of the talents from the left side of the tree, because the other side is not relevant and is quite similar to the droid-based specializations.

15 minutes ago, Do_It said:

I know cloning in place of droid crafting IS a bit of a stretch, but would it be TOO far-fetched for some other biological/genetic thing to be substituted for a mechanical thing? (For example, certain cybernetics being organic implants/genetic modification?)

No, I think that would be fine (of course, it's up to your GM). Part of that would be fluff text, but perhaps a modification of Cyber Tech would be in order. After all, the Gungans grew organic submarines. Just swap out some skills and talents and change the fluff text, and maybe change some details (like price, etc.).

16 minutes ago, Do_It said:

Basically, if my GM said no to cloning altogether just because, I would have stubbornly went with Kaminoan Colonist - Doctor I guess just to go ham on the biology field of expertise and mentioned how cloning was such a beautiful talent of my species, too bad it was beyond my reach 😓 So just curious what other minor capabilities in the same field could support the rebel alliance (in much the same way a character who crafted droids could still be useful by building/repairing other mechanical things) I'm sure basic Doctor/Medic talents might be fine, but just like a character could craft, repair, reprogram, and other wise make great use of droids or against them, I'm curious what other biological things I could contribute . I have an inkling that I'll primarily use weaponry with medical implications like the anasthesis dart for example.

Just remove the word "building" and that's what a doctor does. The problem is that it is kinda a full-time job, and doesn't really fit with the adventurer model.

My suggestion, in the event that the GM doesn't want you cloning, is to play a cloner. You aren't actually mechanically cloning anything, but you are a researcher looking to develop/acquire/whatever cloning tech for the Alliance. In the example I gave earlier from the Thrawn novels, you would be trying to 1. get or learn to build Spaarti cloning cylinders 2. learn about and get Ysalamiri and 3. to find a suitable template.

The last is probably the easiest, but your character doesn't have to actually mechanically participate in the act of cloning to be a cloner, nor does he even have to narratively participate.

My GM is a buddy of mine, he's said since I brought droid crafting to his attention, he's willing to tweak things so I can actually have the fun experience of cloning and feeling like it matters (but ensuring it's believably fair) so the only things I really need taken care of are 1. the act of adjusting the rules for Droid Crafting into Cloning (Medicine instead of Mechanics? How maybe to turn chassis templates into genetic templates that represent who the clone is of and thus how their stats should be, also how those stats should be treated considering a clone should not have those stats until a few years into its life, also how "spending [advantage], [triumph], [threat], and [despair] on cloning" might work) and 2. Incorporating my cloning/medical focus into the Scientist talent tree in place of the mechanic stuff.

If both of those can be worked out, then all is well. Okay, Surgeon definitely seems like it would be appropriate to replace Tinkerer, idk if Speaks Binary could or couldn't just be named something else and replace mention of "droid" with "clone". On one hand, mechanically it wouldn't be too different, but besides the Flash Training, clones aren't really the same as droids as they're not simultaneously people and tools... Tbh I haven't looked at that many talents from other specializations, so there might be something out there.

14 hours ago, Do_It said:

If both of those can be worked out, then all is well. Okay, Surgeon definitely seems like it would be appropriate to replace Tinkerer, idk if Speaks Binary could or couldn't just be named something else and replace mention of "droid" with "clone". On one hand, mechanically it wouldn't be too different, but besides the Flash Training, clones aren't really the same as droids as they're not simultaneously people and tools... Tbh I haven't looked at that many talents from other specializations, so there might be something out there.

I'd suggest dropping Speaks binary entirely. If you want to keep the entire left side of the Scientist tree, I'd suggest re-skinning Deft Maker and putting it on the other side, along with Eye for Detail and a couple of the medical talents.

14 hours ago, Do_It said:

also how "spending [advantage], [triumph], [threat], and [despair] on cloning" might work)

That wouldn't need too much adjustment, most of them could carry over.

14 hours ago, Do_It said:

How maybe to turn chassis templates into genetic templates that represent who the clone is of and thus how their stats should be, also how those stats should be treated considering a clone should not have those stats until a few years into its life

I've though more about this, and here is what I suggest:

(Medicine) Clone Templates:
(Hard) Minion: no more than +3 Characteristic points, and no more than +1 to a single Characteristic (i.e. a clone of a 342322 would be 332322).
(Daunting) Rival: no more than +4 Characteristic points, and no more than +2 to a single Characteristic.
(Formidable) Nemesis: identical to template.

(Knowledge [Education]) Flash Training:
(Average) Minion: Group skills, similar to programming for droids.
(Hard) Rival: You'd pretty much have to come up with your own here.
(Daunting) Nemesis: Copy of the Template.

As for when it applies? Probably not within the time frame of your campaign. Unless you've got access to something like the Spaarti cloning cylinders, they wouldn't be ready for years, and the Rebel Alliance isn't likely to see the value in a recruitment order that isn't going to be ready for nearly a decade.

I have to agree with @P-47 Thunderbolt and the others regarding the dubious game potential of cloning. As they’ve already stated cloning takes an extraordinary amount of time and resources. Even if you accelerate the growth process, you’re still looking at 4-5 months of gestation before you have a viable infant, and years before you have a serviceable “product”. Add to that the extensive facilities needed, it’s just not feasible for a PC.