So...let's say I don't like mixing the aesthetic of snow-themed troopers with the rest of my troopers.

Can I, for example, legally do any of these:

-use standard rebel troopers (or even pathfinders) as Rebel Veterans, provided I swap the right guns around.

-model the 1.4 FD laser cannon with rebel troopers operating it instead of hoth based troopers.

-do conversions on the Taun-Taun riders so they look like standard dudes instead of bundled-up hoth dudes?

1 hour ago, Rocmistro said:

-use standard rebel troopers (or even pathfinders) as Rebel Veterans, provided I swap the right guns around.

Unlikely, as this can easily cause confusion. As always, check with your TO beforehand, but I know that people have been turned away when asking about this specifically before in regards to larger events.

1 hour ago, Rocmistro said:

-model the 1.4 FD laser cannon with rebel troopers operating it instead of hoth based troopers.

-do conversions on the Taun-Taun riders so they look like standard dudes instead of bundled-up hoth dudes?

These should be perfectly fine.

Huh. Coming at this from 40k, where power armor is power armor, that's very odd to me, but ok.

As long as you define what figures represent what troops before the game starts there shouldn't be a problem. I'm doing quite a bit of proxying just to get a better mix of figures on the table.

15 hours ago, ScottWasburn said:

As long as you define what figures represent what troops before the game starts there shouldn't be a problem. I'm doing quite a bit of proxying just to get a better mix of figures on the table.

For casual play, sure. Lots of people proxy to try out new units before they buy them. But in competitive play, the TO's word is final. Using the miniatures that correspond to the unit card is explicitly called out in the Learn to Play document, so is part of the official rules, as is ensuring which set of miniatures correspond to which unit card when multiples of a particular unit is fielded. It prevents confusion during gameplay on both sides, especially as the identity of units is not meant to be hidden information.

18 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

Huh. Coming at this from 40k, where power armor is power armor, that's very odd to me, but ok.

40k also doesn't require you to purchase a specific unit box to get the unit card which is required to include the unit in your army. In 40k, a single unit box is sold to represent any number of units, whereas for Legion one box is (typically) one specific unit. This makes the game simpler, since I don't have to memorize both my own and my opponent's army books to understand the capabilities of the units, I just look at the card, and can at a glance identify every unit on the battlefield. Using Stormtrooper miniatures to represent Snowtroopers is akin to using Space Marines as Sisters of Battle (both are wearing power armour after all), or a flamethrower Space Marine as a Plasma gunner, while also using flamethrowers to represent flamethrowers (assuming the Legion list has both Stormtroopers and Snowtroopers included).

No, I'd say it's more akin to using Tactical Marine set to model Company Veterans or Sternguard, which is perfectly acceptable. They key thing in 40k is the weapon being WYSIWYG, (which in the conditions I outlined above, I mentioned I would swap).

Using a Space Marine as a Sister of Battle is a faction proxy as well as a base proxy, which are much bigger problems (particulary in 40k where allies are a thing).

In legion, if you changed the weapons (which I would always recommend in any game if you were going to model conversions), you are literally changing nothing.

The base size, "armor", racial representations, miniature size and pretty much everything else both functionally and aesthetically (except the amount of "clothes" they are wearing) are the same between a rebel trooper and a rebel veteran. The only thing that is different is the weapon.

3 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

No, I'd say it's more akin to using Tactical Marine set to model Company Veterans or Sternguard, which is perfectly acceptable. They key thing in 40k is the weapon being WYSIWYG, (which in the conditions I outlined above, I mentioned I would swap).

Using a Space Marine as a Sister of Battle is a faction proxy as well as a base proxy, which are much bigger problems (particulary in 40k where allies are a thing).

In legion, if you changed the weapons (which I would always recommend in any game if you were going to model conversions), you are literally changing nothing.

The base size, "armor", racial representations, miniature size and pretty much everything else both functionally and aesthetically (except the amount of "clothes" they are wearing) are the same between a rebel trooper and a rebel veteran. The only thing that is different is the weapon.

The weapon isn't the only thing different between Snowtroopers and Stormtroopers. The movement speed and special rules are different, Stormtroopers have Precise, while Snowtroopers have Steady. The basic weapon is in fact the same. This is not a question of converting the Snowtroopers on an E-Web to Stormtroopers, which AFAIK is fine since the unit is still easily identifiable as an E-Web. Same goes for converting the rider on a Tauntauns or speeder bike: the unit is still easily identified as what it is.

The weapons aren't the only thing that have to be WYSIWYG in 40k, the models also have to representative. Replacing the weapons of a Necron warrior model to make claws for Flayed Ones is okay, since the model is still identifiably a Flayed One, and the weapons are accurately portrayed. But putting claws on a scarab would not be, since despite the WEAPON being WYSIWYG, the model is not. I see a scarab but it's a Flayed One. This is why I said the comparison was more akin to using Sisters of Battle for Space Marines or vice versa as opposed to using the same box of plastic minis to represent different "flavours" of marine. The armour and basic weapons are the same, but many of the other rules are not. Sternguard and Veterans still share a TON of rules with tactical marines, and those they don't can't be easily represented visually.

If I field two otherwise identical Corps units made of Stormtrooper models, but call one of them Snowtroopers, then that can cause confusion and is not allowed per the Tournament Rules, full stop.

This complete adherence to WYSIWYG (using only the models that are found in the box marketed as the fielded unit) is fairly common for games that use cards for list building in place of army books. Warmahordes is the same way, as is Infinity.

Rebel Veterans and Rebel Troopers use the same guns, other than the heavy weapons. If you wanted to field both, that can very quickly get very confusing (I should know, a local player does this exact thing. He's good about clarifying which is which, but I still have to double check all the time). It's not completely unresolvable, but it is definitely more work to keep things organized.

Wow, glad I'm not into competitive play because I'm going to be swapping figures around right and left to get the look I want. Just the other day I was thinking about buying a second rebel X-34 land speeder and then doing some torso swaps with a standard rebel squad to put a gatling gunner and regular rifleman on the speeder and add a missile launcher and the Guido-guy to one of my trooper squads

Same Scott. I'm a little surprised and saddened to see that conversions and miniature customization are not warmly received in the community.

It is well received in the community I think. But competitive play is another thing, and we all understand that, don’t we ?

If you want to deeply customize your units and minis, it’s fine, but for your example of the X-34 landspeeder, why don’t you just magnetize your minis or your weapons ? You can then adapt to the situation, for your diorama, for friendly games, for competitive games...

2 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

Same Scott. I'm a little surprised and saddened to see that conversions and miniature customization are not warmly received in the community.

Oh they are, its just that at a competitive level event I need to be able to quickly and accurately assess the battlefield. Uniforms are a key way that units are visually represented in this game.

In casual games my friend will often proxy stuff he doesnt have yet or use custom modified rebel troopers. Its all good, and it looks cool. Casual games arent timed, and you're playing with someone you know well.

3 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Oh they are, its just that at a competitive level event I need to be able to quickly and accurately assess the battlefield. Uniforms are a key way that units are visually represented in this game.

I suppose. But when in a real battle does a commander ever have exact information on his opponent's forces?

6 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

Same Scott. I'm a little surprised and saddened to see that conversions and miniature customization are not warmly received in the community.

This is absolutely not a fair statement! Brendon Franz, the head judge at all major Legion events, is extremely welcoming of conversions and very much promotes the hobbying aspect of wargaming.

Like I said, just check with your TO beforehand on any specific questions.

13 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

Same Scott. I'm a little surprised and saddened to see that conversions and miniature customization are not warmly received in the community.

Conversion and customization is not the same at all as using one miniature to represent another. To repeat what other have posted, the restrictions on being easily identifiable only apply to tournament play. Heck, my local friendly game often include 3D prints for proxying in characters like the Mandalorian. It helps that the characters are single model units and generally the substitution makes perfect sense (Mando as Boba Fett, not Mando as Leia).

All of the following are only relevant for TOURNAMENT play (and are "in general," different TOs sometimes have different opinions). Casual play it's all about what you and your opponent agree to allow.

Converting your E-Web to have Stormtrooper firing it to match your Corps choices? Great, easily identified as an E-Web by the E-Web on the base. Now using a mortar as an E-Web or vice versa would not be okay, since now the opponent cannot tell at a glance what unit is being represented.

Modifying the Tauntauns riders to look like Rebel Troopers? Cool, it's still easily identifiable as a Tauntaun by the big Tauntaun on the base.

Swapping the bodies on the landspeeder? Cool, still a landspeeder on the base.

Putting the Z-6 on the landspeeder instead of the Rocket launcher? Grey area. Many TOs don't require vehicles to be perfectly WYSIWYG since the upgrade cards are open information, but some of the convention tournaments can be sticklers because they are applying the same WYSIWYG ruling on vehicles weapons as they do for 40K.

Fielding Stormtroopers as Snowtroopers? This a proxy, not a conversion. There are no changes made the models (except maybe a single weapon swap for the Heavy). You are using other models to represent the Snowtroopers, not modifying the models from the box to fit in better. This is why many people have painted their Snowtroopers as Galactic Marines or in noncanon paint schemes: to better match the rest of their army.

Same goes for using Rebel Troopers as Veterans, Commandos, Pathfinders, or any of the other Rebel units. The weapons are in just small variations on the same blaster, which in many cases is just if the original prop weapon was based on an STG-44 or an AR style rifle. At this scale, from across the board it's hard to tell.

Personally, I don't care, they're your minis do with them what you want. But for an organized play tournament they should be easily recognizable so at the end of day 2 your opponent doesn't have to ask you EVERY TURN to identify units since the capabilities can be dramatically different.

7 hours ago, ScottWasburn said:

I suppose. But when in a real battle does a commander ever have exact information on his opponent's forces?

When are real battles ever fought between "balanced" forces either? <Sarcasm> I'm sure Montgomery called up Rommel before the Battle of El Alamein to agree to a point total to make sure the battle was balanced. Also it's well known that Hannibal had to get the points limit increased so he could include elephants.</sarcasm> 😉

This is a "game," not even a "simulation," in which the only hidden information is supposed to be the cards that are currently in your Command hand, and whatever you are planning in your head. Many wargames don't even have that much uncertainty. If you want to modify the game to have more hidden information, such as moving chits around until LoS can be drawn from a chit to an opponet's chit and then replacing the chits with the relevant units, do it (with opponent approval of course).

Caimheul, you've mentioned the snowtrooper/stormtrooper swap twice now. This is a bit straw-manning me as I never proposed doing that. The question I asked about was Rebel Troopers and Rebel Veterans. Snowtroopers/Stormtroopers have a sleightly different dilemma in that their equipment is functionally different (they move slower). I can also imagine that "snowtrooper" armor is more of some kind of environmental hazard gear type thing (MOPP gear, if you like, if you've been in the military) so it's not as much an aesthetic issue for me.

Rebel Troopers and Rebel Veterans are equipped the same way: they both have the same "armor" and the same gun. The thing which differentiates them is special weapon they carry and the winter-clothing look of the veterans which is purely decorative and does not represent some kind of equipment. As for the ease of recognizing models, let me present you with this:

Scenario 1.

-imagine I have 2 squads of rebel troopers and 1 squad of veterans.

I paint 1 squads of rebel troopers and the rebel veterans in matching tans and browns and khakis. I paint the other squad of rebel troopers in snowy white (ie, hoth gear). This, as I understand it, is legal.

Scenario 2.

-i have 4 squads of rebel troopers (two of which I'm using as rebel troopers and two of which i'm using as rebel veterans). I have converted the Mark 2 Blaster and C-OM 93 gun to be carried by Rebel Troopers.

-I paint the 2 squads of rebel troopers in matching browns and khakis (ie, rebel trooper box art). I paint the other 2 squads of troopers which I'm using as veterans in camo green pattern.

Now, which scenario would you honestly tell me, at a tabletop glance is less/more confusing?

The one where you use one unit which already exists as another unit, even if they're differently colored.

12 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

Caimheul, you've mentioned the snowtrooper/stormtrooper swap twice now. This is a bit straw-manning me as I never proposed doing that. The question I asked about was Rebel Troopers and Rebel Veterans. Snowtroopers/Stormtroopers have a sleightly different dilemma in that their equipment is functionally different (they move slower). I can also imagine that "snowtrooper" armor is more of some kind of environmental hazard gear type thing (MOPP gear, if you like, if you've been in the military) so it's not as much an aesthetic issue for me.

Rebel Troopers and Rebel Veterans are equipped the same way: they both have the same "armor" and the same gun. The thing which differentiates them is special weapon they carry and the winter-clothing look of the veterans which is purely decorative and does not represent some kind of equipment. As for the ease of recognizing models, let me present you with this:

Scenario 1.

-imagine I have 2 squads of rebel troopers and 1 squad of veterans.

I paint 1 squads of rebel troopers and the rebel veterans in matching tans and browns and khakis. I paint the other squad of rebel troopers in snowy white (ie, hoth gear). This, as I understand it, is legal.

Scenario 2.

-i have 4 squads of rebel troopers (two of which I'm using as rebel troopers and two of which i'm using as rebel veterans). I have converted the Mark 2 Blaster and C-OM 93 gun to be carried by Rebel Troopers.

-I paint the 2 squads of rebel troopers in matching browns and khakis (ie, rebel trooper box art). I paint the other 2 squads of troopers which I'm using as veterans in camo green pattern.

Now, which scenario would you honestly tell me, at a tabletop glance is less/more confusing?

Snowtrooper/Stormtroopers is the most common swap people have talked about in the past, so I was recycling the arguments, just without changing the names. The equipment is not "functionally" different, the UNITS are different, since movement is a part of the unit, not some upgrade card (which is the only type of "equipment" in Legion). The difference between Rebel Troopers and Rebel Veterans is analogous to that between Stormtroopers and Snowtroopers: they share a defence die and weapon, but they have different rules. Instead of having different movement values, the Veterans have Surge to Hit in addition to Surge to Block. Otherwise, both comparisons entail the units having vastly different special rules. In the case of Veterans vs Troopers, Veterans have the special rules Coordinate: Emplacement and Defend 1 in place of Nimble, similar to how Stormtroopers have Precise 1, but Snowtroopers have Relentless.

Scenario 1 is only confusing if you ignore the rules for setup. From the Learn to Play document (which is part of the official rules of Legion, something often forgotten):

"ID TOKENS If an army has multiple units of the same type but with different upgrades, it can become difficult to keep track of which unit has which upgrades. To help both players distinguish multiple units of the same type, when deploying units, place a unique ID token near the base of the unit leader of each unit. Then, place each unit’s matching ID token on its unit card."

In the rules for Setup from the RRG: "Establish Battlefield and Gather Components: Establish a 3' x 6' battlefield on a flat surface. The players sit across from each other on the 6' edges of the play area and place their units, cards, order tokens, movement tools, and other game components off the play area. Then, they assign ID tokens to their units, if necessary"

So Scenario 1 is only legal if you use ID tokens to differentiate multiple units of the same type. The tournament rules do allow some other options though: "Players must identify multiple units with the same name in their army—and its corresponding unit card and any associated upgrades—with a token, a sticker, paint, or any other form of marking." So technically no, Scenario 1 is NOT legal per the rules.

Scenario 2 is not allowed per the tournament rules, and is relying on a single model to be indicative of the unit. If the C-OM 93 is taken out by an effect like Force Choke,"placement sniping," or otherwise removed as a casualty, then confusion has been created. If only the unit leaders are left and I look at the board, I see 4 Rebel Trooper units consisting of a single model, not two Rebel Trooper unit leaders and two Rebel Veteran unit leaders.

The specific rule that Scenario 2 runs afoul of is worded (currently) as follows: "Players may paint their miniatures and official terrain products. They cannot modify a mini or official terrain in any way that would create significant confusion about which unit or terrain type the mini or terrain product represents." Scenario two modifies the minis in a way that can very easily be ruled to be causing "significant confusion."

Woah! That went south so fast! You guys really unleashed the kraken on that one!

The all wookie army we allowed at LVO disagrees with much of this conversation!

11 hours ago, TalkPolite said:

The all wookie army we allowed at LVO disagrees with much of this conversation!

IIRC, every wookie was considered identifiable and specifically tailored to not conflict.

If you really have an issue with the Hoth guys, paint them differently, equally, with a splash of red, snow troopers become Imperial Galactic Marines.

Painting the Hoth guys in Endor Green and Kahki, Tatooween Yellows and Browns or even shipboard Blue white and Grey makes them have a whole different aethstetic

15 hours ago, TalkPolite said:

The all wookie army we allowed at LVO disagrees with much of this conversation!

Firstly, I'd love to see photos of that because it sounds awesome!

I'd be surprised if that army just consisted of multiple units represented by the same standard wookie miniatures with no conversion work excepting only the heavy weapon trooper and a different paint job, as was being discussed above.

10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Firstly, I'd love to see photos of that because it sounds awesome!

I'd be surprised if that army just consisted of multiple units represented by the same standard wookie miniatures with no conversion work excepting only the heavy weapon trooper and a different paint job, as was being discussed above.

What amount of conversion work, in your mind, would be required for the Wookie to be satisfactorily used as a Rebel Trooper, or Rebel veteran (or commando or pathfinder)?

14 hours ago, Indy_com said:

IIRC, every wookie was considered identifiable and specifically tailored to not conflict.

If you really have an issue with the Hoth guys, paint them differently, equally, with a splash of red, snow troopers become Imperial Galactic Marines.

Painting the Hoth guys in Endor Green and Kahki, Tatooween Yellows and Browns or even shipboard Blue white and Grey makes them have a whole different aethstetic

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here...Hoth guys painted in <any color> still look like extremely well-bundled cold-weather dudes. Same for F1.4 and Taun-Taun riders. It really should be no problem to say: "The 2 units painted in tans? Those are regular rebel trooper. But the rebel trooper unit painted with Navy Blue jackets and carrying a COM93 instead of a Z6? Those are veterans." It really is not that difficult guys.

3 minutes ago, Rocmistro said:

What amount of conversion work, in your mind, would be required for the Wookie to be satisfactorily used as a Rebel Trooper, or Rebel veteran (or commando or pathfinder)?

This is one of the reasons I'm curious as to the list and to actually see the army. How many different unit types were represented and how were the differences indicated.

But things that could differentiate the units: Wookies with blaster rifles of some type exclusively used for one of the corps choice (and ONLY one). If you want to have Veterans as well, Wookies with clearly visible helmets and also blaster rifle, perhaps even other additional armor. Heavy weapons should be the same as on the cards. Wookies in Ghillie suits with rifles for Commandos or Pathfinders (but not both at the same time). Basically, some actual extensive conversion work as opposed to just arm swaps for the single heavy weapon. Another advantage here is the entire army is obviously altered . If someone see four Rebel Trooper squads in different paint, most people's brain goes "four Rebel Troopers with different paint" because the brain LOVES shortcuts. This is similar to change blindness, and why commercials for medical products will stick an actor in a lab coat with a stethoscope. Sure the little text at the bottom of the screen says "Not a real doctor" but your brain sees the trappings of a doctor and shortcuts to "Authority figure."

Just now, Rocmistro said:

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here...Hoth guys painted in <any color> still look like extremely well-bundled cold-weather dudes. Same for F1.4 and Taun-Taun riders. It really should be no problem to say: "The 2 units painted in tans? Those are regular rebel trooper. But the rebel trooper unit painted with Navy Blue jackets and carrying a COM93 instead of a Z6? Those are veterans." It really is not that difficult guys.

As has been said before just painting different colors is not really sufficient to differentiate two units as different types at a quick glance, especially not at the end of a full day of tournament play. Especially when all the poses are exactly the same. Many people paint their Rebel Trooper squads differently as a matter of course to easily indicate different squads. I've seen more than one person paint up their Phase 1 clones in a similar way, where each squad is differentiated by a different accent colour on the armour. So colour subtleties are more often used to indicate different squads of the same unit type rather than use the ID Tokens.

Padded armor is a thing in Star Wars, as are desert planets. I'd imagine people from a desert planet would feel fairly cold on a temperate world. Or you could always ONLY field Troopers or Veterans and not mix them if it bothers you that much. I know plenty of people who only field Hoth units or ONLY field non-Hoth units due to their feelings on the sculpts. Also, some of the Pathfinders on Scarif were wearing the same uniform as was used on Hoth, and that certainly wasn't a cold weather planet.

If you want to convert the Tauntaun riders or the F 1.4 gunners, sure go ahead, the major element on the base (the satellite dish and Tauntaun) still clearly indicate what unit is being fielded. But just doing a single arm swap isn't sufficient to differentiate Veterans vs Troopers since the major element of the model (for the heavy the head/body/legs, for the normal troops, the entire model) have not been changed.

If you aren't playing competitively, do whatever your local scene will allow. If you ARE playing competitively, don't be surprised if a TO tells you "No."