On 2/2/2020 at 9:19 PM, Vulcan64 said:

RPGs are at their peak in the US.

I keep hearing that, but I have my doubts. It is hard to say how much is true and how much is marketing talk, as official sales numbers are not usually released in RPG circles from what I can tell.

But a look at my RPG pdf folder tells me:

- D&D 5th Edition, 2014-2020 (7 years): 11 Rulebooks published (excluding adventures), including such essential works as "Rick & Morty D&D" and "AcqInc D&D".
- D&D 4th Edition, 2008-2014 (7 years): 28 Rulebooks published (excluding adventures)
- D&D 3.5th Edition, 2003-2008 (6 years) : 90 Rulebooks published (excluding adventures), including 22 Forgotten Realms books and 15 Eberron Books, plus lots of high-quality 3rd party product, like the 17 Ravenloft books. A golden time.

I had to laugh when I read the Wikipedia quotes : "On the Dungeons & Dragons side, each year sees a new major storyline adventure with a full marketing push, a separate adventure, and one or two ancillary books full of references and world-building for the players. This amount of output is extreme".

And I do not know another Tabletop RPG that is going as strong regarding output as several did in the 2000s, except Star Wars. And that is being closed, now.

So I have my doubts about the "RPG are so successful right now" stories.

57 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:

I keep hearing that, but I have my doubts. It is hard to say how much is true and how much is marketing talk, as official sales numbers are not usually released in RPG circles from what I can tell.

But a look at my RPG pdf folder tells me:

- D&D 5th Edition, 2014-2020 (7 years): 11 Rulebooks published (excluding adventures), including such essential works as "Rick & Morty D&D" and "AcqInc D&D".
- D&D 4th Edition, 2008-2014 (7 years): 28 Rulebooks published (excluding adventures)
- D&D 3.5th Edition, 2003-2008 (6 years) : 90 Rulebooks published (excluding adventures), including 22 Forgotten Realms books and 15 Eberron Books, plus lots of high-quality 3rd party product, like the 17 Ravenloft books. A golden time.

I had to laugh when I read the Wikipedia quotes : "On the Dungeons & Dragons side, each year sees a new major storyline adventure with a full marketing push, a separate adventure, and one or two ancillary books full of references and world-building for the players. This amount of output is extreme".

And I do not know another Tabletop RPG that is going as strong regarding output as several did in the 2000s, except Star Wars. And that is being closed, now.

So I have my doubts about the "RPG are so successful right now" stories.

the market changed.
"sourcebooks" and ton of useless mechanical crunch and ton of character options to gain +1 damage are not where its at in 2020.

d&d 4e killed itself. it became a bloated monster. everything a ROLEplay doesn't want to be.
the games nowadays are focused, clean, narrative, easy to get into, all about creating stories. Flexible and deep, without needing unwieldy rules and number crunching.

and then there was L5R 5e... taking some of the good parts of narrative games, but all the old school bs of d&d 4e, absurdly badly written crunch that seem to always be in need of exception or clarification and need to be read 5 times to understand. With many deeply flawed subsystems that are absolutely not elegent unless you master all the technical detail and options they have hidden in all kinds of places.

it is just not something popular nowadays. especially not for a niche setting that is well known for its heavy RP.

they screwed it up with about 50% of its design... unfortunately.

It was a good base with awesome potential, but then someone decided to jam all kind of crap in there. honestly, crap that doesn't really make the game more FUN.
All the podcasts or show I listened to seem to go out of their way to avoid that mechanical bloat and focus instead on RP.

There might be a small amount of players who have the right group and mindset for this type of absurd and unpolished complexity and boatloads of technical options with half a page long"techniques" with even more opportunity options.
But, that is clearly not many people... Especially not the new casual player who wants to RP a cool samurai and then ends up in a "duel" and it all become a trashy abusable and technical subsystem that they don't give a F about understanding and all of a sudden lose an arm.
Or intrigues? couldn't they have design an elegant social combat system instead of this.. garbage with opportunity and techniques and all kinds of nonsense?

at the end of the day, the interested players for this type of experience is just too small for the production value of the line.

It's good to come back some years after seeing what they were doing with the new edition and telling people that trading the beloved system that lasted successfully for four editions and 20 years for a poorly tested mess of a system just to sell special dice would not work, just to be yelled out of the forums for "not being supportive", that behold!

The new shoddy system broke the RPG and removed players interest from it.

Rest in peace, L5R RPG.

Here's hoping some company will bring you back with some respect for you in the future.

I guess the longer you've been on the forum the less you have patience to same the same people arguing the same stuff whenever a new member shows up?
I can see the commercial point of scraping a few extra bucks from the fans by making them buy some novelty dice but at the same time I can see the fans seeing this for what it is and just not buying?

I don't mind the new timeline, I really don't, but I'm kind of pissed that it took FFG 3 years to realize the mistakes they made on the card game and finally introduce a faster game mode and a multiplayer mode (which I think they are both in beta right now) and on the RPG side the whole mess of the conflict chapter.

I mean, L5R was already something niche in a niche hobby and without going back at the people that decided not to support 5e just because they reset and changed the timeline, but actually took a look at the system (for both RPG and card game) and when Cartman on it, the amount of fans definitely reduced.

I was hoping that with EDGE entertainment taking over, they would be willing to create a 5.5 to polish the whole thing

As someone who played the living heck out of 4th Edition, I very much prefer the special dice system. Like, a system were you have to think what dice you keep? And Raises actually matter ? What kind of trickery is this ?

Yeah so you missed the whole bit about how the game isn't actually dead. Congratulations, you won't be missed.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

As someone who played the living heck out of 4th Edition, I very much prefer the special dice system. Like, a system were you have to think what dice you keep? And Raises actually matter ? What kind of trickery is this ?

Oh, I'm fond of the dice now and the system, as you put it, making raises actually matter. But my first thought was that it was mostly a money grab. Which I still think it is, but since I've only been playing it via discord, I guess it doesn't affect me.

18 hours ago, Myrion said:

Yeah so you missed the whole bit about how the game isn't actually dead. Congratulations, you won't be missed.

In fairness, we do still have to see what Asmodee's new RPG publisher will do with it.

I'm a lot more confident with the transition being announced with the Phoenix sourcebook/adventure confirmed and advertised, though.

Eh, sure, but at the same time "the new dice killed it" is about the dumbest possible take on what's going on with L5R. The new system is also definitely no more shoddy than any of the other editions.

3 hours ago, Myrion said:

Eh, sure, but at the same time "the new dice killed it" is about the dumbest possible take on what's going on with L5R. The new system is also definitely no more shoddy than any of the other editions.

I agree. The custom dice are simply a mechanism for adjudicating challenge results just like numbered dice are. It is what you make of it that counts, not the vehicle that delivers results. If you don't like how it works, either use numbered dice or modify it to suit your needs.

If it is too difficult to meet challenges, change how kept dice are handled. One way is to use EITHER the Skill rank or the Ring, whichever is higher. Doing that in your games makes skill picks more valuable than general increases in ring value.

Having played all previous editions, using custom dice was really the way to go for dynamic rolling. It's the better solution in comparison to rolling separate numerical dice for strife, success, or opportunity. Anyone ever play 1st edition Alternity? Yikes. I question the authenticity of anyone who really thinks new dice = money grabbing. I don't miss raises, free raises, and static bonuses which complicated even simple checks. Roll and keep is a signature of L5R and 5e does it so much better. Sure, sometimes I want opportunity to mean more to a roll, and sometimes I just want to resolve something quickly, but at least it's there for those pivotal moments. Back to topic, I hope whatever changes occur continue to be for the better, and maybe come with an errata to update all the books that were released.

There will be at least some errata for Path of Waves, I know that. Umbrella's stab mode should be 2-h, f.ex. and a few of the improvised weapons (those that aren't weapon-shaped) should use Unarmed. There might be other errata coming too 🙂

On 5/4/2020 at 7:47 AM, Bayushi Koba said:

It's good to come back some years after seeing what they were doing with the new edition and telling people that trading the beloved system that lasted successfully for four editions and 20 years for a poorly tested mess of a system just to sell special dice would not work, just to be yelled out of the forums for "not being supportive", that behold!

For the love of...
CUSTOM DICE ARE NOT A MONEY GRAB!

I've been hearing that same line of baloney since the Edge of the Empire Beta. If you don't like the dice, I totally get that. They're weird and they're an extra expense, and they have all kinds of crazy results. But they're not raking in the cash on these things. Each group is going to buy a few sets, and that's going to be about it. They cost about double what a normal set of polyhedral dice cost, and you get about twice as many dice, and it's not your standard set. They have to be very careful about over- or under-producing, and every step of their production costs money. Are they pulling a profit on them? I sure hope so, but it ain't a big one.

Now then, as to the tired old argument of continuing with the same system as 4e: It's a terrible idea. The d10 R+K system was finished. It wasn't bad, and it wasn't dead, but it was basically complete. I played a bit of 3e, and it was pretty good. My general understanding is that 1e was new and interesting, but pretty wonky, 2e was a terrible misstep trying to fix 1e, 3e was finally in the right direction, and 4e was basically as good as it's going to get. They released numerous sourcebooks, covering almost every aspect of the Emerald Empire, with options for following the card game's metaplot or ignoring it as you will. That's fantastic. Wrap it up, put a bow on it, it's done.

Buying an IP just to try and reproduce the same thing would be stupid. You have to try something new. Even if you blow it, you tried to innovate. 5e has a lot of issues, but it also has a lot of people enjoying it, and this is their first try. Don't forget, AEG needed four tries to really nail it.

If you don't like 5e, we get it. You're welcome to hit the forums for story ideas and discussions, so long as you're not snotty about it. Just remember that trying something new is NOT disrespectful to what came before. FFG clearly has more respect for L5R than the people who threw it away to make Space Base and Tiny Towns.

I don't care what it is, why it was introduced: I like it.

Overall, I like this system. I like this fifth edition. It's the one that made me start game-mastering. It's important to me.

I felt like saying this after seeing so many negative comments.

4 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Now then, as to the tired old argument of continuing with the same system as 4e: It's a terrible idea. The d10 R+K system was finished. It wasn't bad, and it wasn't dead, but it was basically complete.

That's quite an overstatement in my opinion. The combat system needed an overhaul. The School balance was subpar. Mass Battles were poorly implemented. Better technique integration was desperately needed. The Skill list (and the Skill system in general) could bear a revision. The Raises mechanic needed a major improvement. Some of the roleplaying mechanics (Advantages/Disadvantages, Honor) were clunky. There was a lot to improve on 4e.

Yeah, but balance is something you can always tweak and tweak endlessly. The skill list needed paring down, I think, but that on its own is hardly worth a new edition. I honestly doubt you could "fix" the Raise system as it was. I think the Opportunities as we have them now are the proper evolution of that.

Mass battle is apparently something almost every system seems to struggle with, for some reason. That could've taken another supplement, I think, to actually flesh out different army types and stuff. Sadly, the new edition also seems to struggle with it, though I heard good stuff about Kakita Kaori's homebrew system.

What do you mean by better technique integration?

8 minutes ago, Myrion said:

What do you mean by better technique integration?

Katas in 4ed did not feel like a natural part of the game mechanics and did not mesh too well with them either.

I think the combat overhaul alone would have been enough for a 5th edition.

6 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I played a bit of 3e, and it was pretty good. My general understanding is that 1e was new and interesting, but pretty wonky, 2e was a terrible misstep trying to fix 1e, 3e was finally in the right direction, and 4e was basically as good as it's going to get. They released numerous sourcebooks, covering almost every aspect of the Emerald Empire, with options for following the card game's metaplot or ignoring it as you will. That's fantastic. Wrap it up, put a bow on it, it's done.

Buying an IP just to try and reproduce the same thing would be stupid. You have to try something new. Even if you blow it, you tried to innovate. 5e has a lot of issues, but it also has a lot of people enjoying it, and this is their first try. Don't forget, AEG needed four tries to really nail it.

Keep in mind somewhere along the line, AEG got into financial trouble and for a time TSR and/or Hasbro-Wizards of the Coast owned L5R at the launch of the D20 Third Edition of D&D. Oriental Adventures D20 source book used quite a bit of L5R's Rokugan instead of Forgotten Realms Kara-Tur. In terms of the Canon, that book was set after the Steel Chrysanthemum's War of the Spirits around the time of Emperor Toturi's disappearance. Shortly after the release of the D20 Oriental Adventures book, the L5R rights were sold back to AEG who then started using dual d10 and d20 stats in "Way of the Samurai", Way of the Shujenga", "Way of the Ninja", and then the Secrets series. Only Blookspeakers and Hidden Emperor were exclusively d20 products.

Since I was heavily invested in D&D Third edition, I particularly enjoyed the AEG d20 products though I never used the d10 system. I picked up a few of the other books for their lore but that was it. I still use much of that material for my own world building. Why re-invent the wheel when you can simply adapt the parts you like to fit your campaign?

As for this version of L5R, the "reboot" is interesting and the system is not bad. Sure, it could have improvements, but the dice are not that critical. You can simply use a d6 or d12 and a chart to achieve the same effect. ****, if you were really ambitious, you could create result charts for d4s, d8s, d10s, and d20s if you really wanted. I cannot speak for their balance, however.

On 5/4/2020 at 2:10 PM, Diogo Salazar said:

I don't mind the new timeline, I really don't, but I'm kind of pissed that it took FFG 3 years to realize the mistakes they made on the card game and finally introduce a faster game mode and a multiplayer mode (which I think they are both in beta right now) and on the RPG side the whole mess of the conflict chapter.

Both card game formats are not in beta. Skirmish has it's official rules. They are just download only. Multiplayer is supported by a big box expansion. Both are fun ways to play the game and I agree it would have been better if they were the formats going into the core, but it is what it is at this point. They are definitely trying to redirect the direction of the game to make it more approachable to a casual audience. Up until this point they've definitely doubled down on the diehard card game players, which will stabilize their sales. Though it will never grow the brand. My opinion is they really should consider using the setting for a more thematic or narrative board game. I feel like that's marketing to the audience a bit better. If there was an imperial assault style L5R game or an Android style game where you played as a character and worked through their personal story I feel like that would be trying to grab the audience that likes L5R more for the story and the RPG than for the card play. Right now we have the RPG, but if they start slowing the release of the books for the RPG due to the restructuring at FFG then we'll have nothing really filling that hole.

Skirmish is really good BTW. If you have any cards sitting around you should give it a try. It greatly speeds up the game and it get's rid of alot of problematic card types and mechanics that added to the theme of the game, but distracting from the fundamental mechanics of the gameplay. Also I think it really fixes the duel system to make it feel less like bullies beating wimps all the time.

As for the new timeline I think it's a big positive for the RPG since it goes and cleans up the continuity, simplifies it and slows it down. I don't know how many of you actually play with people new to the setting versus playing with people who have played L5R for years, but those old editions were super intimidating for newer players mostly due to the monolithic sections on the history of Rokugan. Some of that read bizarrely due to retroactive continuity and dramatic changes in the setting from card game considerations. I'm much more comfortable with the presentation of the setting now and showing that to new people from an RPG perspective. I know anyone heavily invested in characters and events from the old continuity will be annoyed by the changes, but I feel like cutting the setting down to it's core is actually freeing as a GM. You can import what you want from the old stuff without feeling beholden to it.

2 hours ago, Myrion said:

Mass battle is apparently something almost every system seems to struggle with, for some reason

In pretty much every RPG system I've ever played (traveller, dark heresy et al, advanced fighting fantasy, savage worlds, and probably a bunch of others I've forgotten, two bits that invariably feel like a slightly shonky bolt-on are 'grappling' and 'mass combat'. Dunno why those specifically, but they always seems to be the weak spots.

Well, I liked GURPS mass battle system. It has enough to resolve the big picture AND create some scene for the players involved in it.

Something to note is that the Mass Battle rules are designed for if the PCs are actually running the battle for one side or the other. If the PCs are 'merely' participating in the battle, it's suggested that this is resolved in some other way - probably a Skirmish, which may effect the final result of the battle, or may not, depending on the story.

I almost never use codified systems for things like mass combat and just hone in on the personal conflicts to keep it to the core mechanics. I also usually find side mechanics like mass combat or things like Intrigues are a bit too much for my group. If a PC is a general I'm more interesting in if they came up with a good battle strategy before the fight or gave a good speech to the troops. Then on the field do they participate in one on one battles against an enemy personality or need to communicate tactics to his subordinates. All that can usually be handled by the core mechanics of an RPG system and keep things feeling a bit more cinematic. Everything else outside the PC's control can be handled by just narration. I really feel like it's best to keep it simple to keep the game moving. That said some people love to have everything gamified and get alot of enjoyment from a system on that level. So it's different strokes for different groups. It's a strength of RPGs in this regard that you can use what works for you and ignore what doesn't work.

3 hours ago, phillos said:

As for the new timeline I think it's a big positive for the RPG since it goes and cleans up the continuity, simplifies it and slows it down. I don't know how many of you actually play with people new to the setting versus playing with people who have played L5R for years, but those old editions were super intimidating for newer players mostly due to the monolithic sections on the history of Rokugan. Some of that read bizarrely due to retroactive continuity and dramatic changes in the setting from card game considerations. I'm much more comfortable with the presentation of the setting now and showing that to new people from an RPG perspective. I know anyone heavily invested in characters and events from the old continuity will be annoyed by the changes, but I feel like cutting the setting down to it's core is actually freeing as a GM. You can import what you want from the old stuff without feeling beholden to it.

I agree. The ability to incorporate what you like without feeling obligated to exactly maintain old canon is very appealing.

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

That's quite an overstatement in my opinion. The combat system needed an overhaul. The School balance was subpar. Mass Battles were poorly implemented. Better technique integration was desperately needed. The Skill list (and the Skill system in general) could bear a revision. The Raises mechanic needed a major improvement. Some of the roleplaying mechanics (Advantages/Disadvantages, Honor) were clunky. There was a lot to improve on 4e.

That's fair. I only really played 3e. I read all the other core books to get a general idea, and 4e definitely seemed the most solid. When it became clear 5e would be massively different, I remember a lot of complaining that 4e was pretty much perfect and that they should just work with that.

As for myself, I realized that I was never going to be on board with the d10 R+K system, and I enjoyed the game much more after a quick and dirty conversion to Savage Worlds. Never got the magic system quite worked out they way I wanted, but them's the breaks.