1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Nope, all Resistance personnel were aboard their respective ships (minus the fighters and bombers), and they were ready to jump. Had Poe obeyed Leia’s order, they would have all left.

Now, we can indeed safely say that, thanks to their hyperspace tracking, if the Resistance had jumped at that point, they would have been sitting ducks for the dreadnaught when the First Order jumped in. At that point, however, no one in the Resistance had any reason to suspect that they’d be tracked through hyperspace.

And, no, the Raddus’ fighter bay was destroyed by the TIE attack when the First Order came out of hyperspace, the same attack that also resulted in the bridge’s destruction. The few fighters left after the attack on the dreadnaught were lost; Poe had no starfighters to command as of Holdo taking command of the fleet.

Sure. But then she went and alienated him and caused a mutiny. caused her own plan to be leaked to the first order because she refused to tell someone her plan. It was stupid leadership decision that should never have been made by someone who made the rank of admiral. And as was noted Poe knew about how the tracking worked as did Rose and at no point did anyone tell Holdo. Because she demonstrated so poor a leadership ability she couldnt be trusted with the info. Which is just terrible writing and shows a complete lack of understanding about how military people work.

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Nope, all Resistance personnel were aboard their respective ships (minus the fighters and bombers), and they were ready to jump. Had Poe obeyed Leia’s order, they would have all left.

Now, we can indeed safely say that, thanks to their hyperspace tracking, if the Resistance had jumped at that point, they would have been sitting ducks for the dreadnaught when the First Order jumped in. At that point, however, no one in the Resistance had any reason to suspect that they’d be tracked through hyperspace.

And, no, the Raddus’ fighter bay was destroyed by the TIE attack when the First Order came out of hyperspace, the same attack that also resulted in the bridge’s destruction. The few fighters left after the attack on the dreadnaught were lost; Poe had no starfighters to command as of Holdo taking command of the fleet.

Quote from Wookiepedia:

Quote

As the Fulminatrix began to aim its orbital autocannons at the Raddus, Resistance bombers began to approach the dreadnought, defended by starfighters to block TIE fighter attacks. The resultant assault successfully obliterated the Fulminatrix, but at a high cost. All bombers were lost along with four of their escorting starfighters, and after the first attack on the fleet, the Resistance was reduced to just 400 personnel aboard four ships. However, Dameron's attack bought enough time for their fleet to jump to hyperspace.[5] At the same time they made their escape, the Supremacy and thirty more Star Destroyers arrived at D'Qar.[12]

Actually no, they were still departing D'Qar, when the dreadmought attacked:

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

When he gave the info that created the attack plan.

Oh, so that’s joining them...even though, during that operation, he specifically stated that his only concern was rescuing one individual? He was not invested in the Resistance’s fight, he wanted to save his friend.

Don't mind me...

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

She should trust a former stormtrooper (who, unbeknownst to her, had tried to jump ship)?

You mean the same strormtrooper she send on a top secret mission in TFA to infiltrate Starkiller Base? Surely no trust there. 🤔

2 minutes ago, Varlie said:

Don't mind me...

😍

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. But then she went and alienated him and caused a mutiny. caused her own plan to be leaked to the first order because she refused to tell someone her plan. It was stupid leadership decision that should never have been made by someone who made the rank of admiral. And as was noted Poe knew about how the tracking worked as did Rose and at no point did anyone tell Holdo. Because she demonstrated so poor a leadership ability she couldnt be trusted with the info. Which is just terrible writing and shows a complete lack of understanding about how military people work.

She denied information to someone who wasn’t entitled to it. That his own bruised ego led to him making more bad decisions than he’d already done is a commentary on him, not on her.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

She should trust someone who’d been demoted for insubordination and who got in her face demanding information he wasn’t entitled to?

She should trust a former stormtrooper (who, unbeknownst to her, had tried to jump ship)?

She could indeed have provided Rose the information, especially if Rose had been given the opportunity share her theory about the hyperspace tracking. But, Poe prevented that. There he goes, proving again that Holdo should trust him by (checks notes) undermining her authority.

which are examples of why this was bad writing. Being demoted for insubordination is not a good reason to keep info from him. especially when he is asking what the plan is. It shows a lack of leadership ability. Not to mention it is made clear she did trust him before he was loaded on the shuttle. So it is not a decision that makes sense. You keep trying to justify poor leadership decisions that directly resulted i the plan failing and caused a mutiny.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. But then she went and alienated him and caused a mutiny. caused her own plan to be leaked to the first order because she refused to tell someone her plan. It was stupid leadership decision that should never have been made by someone who made the rank of admiral. And as was noted Poe knew about how the tracking worked as did Rose and at no point did anyone tell Holdo. Because she demonstrated so poor a leadership ability she couldnt be trusted with the info. Which is just terrible writing and shows a complete lack of understanding about how military people work.

So, your postulate is that Holdo was a Palpitinian Candidate?

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

You mean the same strormtrooper she send on a top secret mission in TFA to infiltrate Starkiller Base? Surely no trust there. 🤔

Holdo didn’t send him anywhere in TFA. Not to mention, he sorta extorted his way onto the mission. “Yeah, I know how to get the shields down, but I have to go myself (so I can accomplish my real objective of saving my friend).” 😜

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

So, your postulate is that Holdo was a Palpitinian Candidate?

A snoke clone dressed in a evening gown by Palpatine for sure! 😁

4 minutes ago, Vondy said:

So, your postulate is that Holdo was a Palpitinian Candidate?

No I postulate that it is poor writing that has characters making uncharacteristic decisions in order to have plot happen. Which is poor writing.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Holdo didn’t send him anywhere in TFA. Not to mention, he sorta extorted his way onto the mission. “Yeah, I know how to get the shields down, but I have to go myself (so I can accomplish my real objective of saving my friend).” 😜

He got the job done after all, and ended TFA as a hero. Finn was the char with the most promising story arc in TFA of all the protagonists, but sadly was demoted to a stereotypical 50ies minorities comic relief in TLJ. 😥

6 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Actually no, they were still departing D'Qar, when the dreadmought attacked:

...when the dreadnaught attacked D’Qar. Those last transports were then aboard the Raddus, with the dreadnaught recharging its BFG when Leia gave Poe the order to withdraw so the fleet could leave. Poe disobeyed that order.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No I postulate that it is poor writing that has characters making uncharacteristic decisions in order to have plot happen. Which is poor writing.

You postulate that the way a character acts in her first (screen) appearance is uncharacteristic?

7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

She denied information to someone who wasn’t entitled to it. That his own bruised ego led to him making more bad decisions than he’d already done is a commentary on him, not on her.

Which is an example of a stupid leadership decision. Leaders need to do things to get desired results out of their subordinates. If you do things that result in bad decision making by your subordinate that is bad leadership. It is also poor writing to have a vice admiral makes such hamfistedly bad leadership choices for the sake of plot.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

...when the dreadnaught attacked D’Qar. Those last transports were then aboard the Raddus, with the dreadnaught recharging its BFG when Leia gave Poe the order to withdraw so the fleet could leave. Poe disobeyed that order.

Quote from Wookiepedia:

Quote

As the Fulminatrix began to aim its orbital autocannons at the Raddus, Resistance bombers began to approach the dreadnought, defended by starfighters to block TIE fighter attacks. The resultant assault successfully obliterated the Fulminatrix, but at a high cost. All bombers were lost along with four of their escorting starfighters, and after the first attack on the fleet, the Resistance was reduced to just 400 personnel aboard four ships. However, Dameron's attack bought enough time for their fleet to jump to hyperspace.[5] At the same time they made their escape, the Supremacy and thirty more Star Destroyers arrived at D'Qar.[12]

Actually no, they were still departing D'Qar, when the dreadmought attacked:

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

You postulate that the way a character acts in her first (screen) appearance is uncharacteristic?

See above. You don't get to be an vice admiral by making such glaringly bad leadership decisions. So yes that would be uncharacteristic of someone who achieved the rank of Vice Admiral.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

Quote from Wookiepedia:

Actually no, they were still departing D'Qar, when the dreadmought attacked:

Yes...as I said, when it attacked D’Qar. When Leia gave the command for Poe to disengage, it was for the fleet to leave.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Yes...as I said, when it attacked D’Qar. When Leia gave the command for Poe to disengage, it was for the fleet to leave.

Quote from Wookiepedia:

Quote

As the Fulminatrix began to aim its orbital autocannons at the Raddus, Resistance bombers began to approach the dreadnought, defended by starfighters to block TIE fighter attacks. The resultant assault successfully obliterated the Fulminatrix, but at a high cost. All bombers were lost along with four of their escorting starfighters, and after the first attack on the fleet, the Resistance was reduced to just 400 personnel aboard four ships. However, Dameron's attack bought enough time for their fleet to jump to hyperspace.[5] At the same time they made their escape, the Supremacy and thirty more Star Destroyers arrived at D'Qar.[12]

According to Wookiepedia (a respectable source for Star Wars) Poe's actions saved la Résistance fleet. You argued that Poe's actions were perceived to be traiterous, but actually he officially saved the Raddus.

And, by the way, if Holdo really suspected Poe to be "the leak" I assume she would have him taken into custody instead of having him roam the shipp freely? 🤔

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which is an example of a stupid leadership decision. Leaders need to do things to get desired results out of their subordinates. If you do things that result in bad decision making by your subordinate that is bad leadership. It is also poor writing to have a vice admiral makes such hamfistedly bad leadership choices for the sake of plot.

So, someone recently demoted demands information they’re not entitled to of their new commanding officer. The commanding officer says, “No. Now go to your station.”

You’re telling us that the commanding officer should expect that person to, rather than following the order to go to their station, sit and stew over their bruised ego, receive information that he will then petulantly withhold, and lead four or five other people in an easily-quashed mutiny; that mutiny is always an inherent indication of a failure in leadership rather than a problem with the mutineer(s).

I mentioned it earlier, but by this standard, on this week’s episode of Reaistance, I suppose Captain Doza should have willingly walked the proverbial plank that Kragan and his crew were forcing him to, and let the pirates have control of the Colossus. After all, they mutineed, so that means that Doza’s a bad commander and the pirates were within their rights to seize control of the ship.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

So, someone recently demoted demands information they’re not entitled to of their new commanding officer. The commanding officer says, “No. Now go to your station.”

You’re telling us that the commanding officer should expect that person to, rather than following the order to go to their station, sit and stew over their bruised ego, receive information that he will then petulantly withhold, and lead four or five other people in an easily-quashed mutiny; that mutiny is always an inherent indication of a failure in leadership rather than a problem with the mutineer(s).

I mentioned it earlier, but by this standard, on this week’s episode of Reaistance, I suppose Captain Doza should have willingly walked the proverbial plank that Kragan and his crew were forcing him to, and let the pirates have control of the Colossus. After all, they mutineed, so that means that Doza’s a bad commander and the pirates were within their rights to seize control of the ship.

A former military personnel confirmed Holdo's actions to be hilarious. I beg your pardon, but you are a civilian and a military hobby strategist at best (not meant as an insult). You asume a lot with your far fetched arguments.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

According to Wookiepedia (a respectable source for Star Wars) Poe's actions saved la Résistance fleet. You argued that Poe's actions were perceived to be traiterous, but actually he officially saved the Raddus.

I said nothing about “traitorous.” I said he was insubordinate and disobeyed a direct order. Which is true.

I also even agreed that, with us having the benefit of knowing the movie’s full story and the hindsight of knowing there were factors in play that the characters had no way of knowing about, that Poe’s actions were ultimately beneficial. That doesn’t eliminate his insubordination or disobeying a direct order. And those are not qualities that instill a sense of confidence or trust in a superior, particularly a new superior who knows you only by reputation.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So, someone recently demoted demands information they’re not entitled to of their new commanding officer. The commanding officer says, “No. Now go to your station.”

You’re telling us that the commanding officer should expect that person to, rather than following the order to go to their station, sit and stew over their bruised ego, receive information that he will then petulantly withhold, and lead four or five other people in an easily-quashed mutiny; that mutiny is always an inherent indication of a failure in leadership rather than a problem with the mutineer(s).

I mentioned it earlier, but by this standard, on this week’s episode of Reaistance, I suppose Captain Doza should have willingly walked the proverbial plank that Kragan and his crew were forcing him to, and let the pirates have control of the Colossus. After all, they mutineed, so that means that Doza’s a bad commander and the pirates were within their rights to seize control of the ship.

Im telling you a leader should anticipate how their subordinate will react to commands and use a method that gets good results. You dont get to be a vice admiral with out being able to read your troops and issue commands in a manner that gets desired results.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

A former military personnel confirmed Holdo's actions to be hilarious. I beg your pardon, but you are a civilian and a military hobby strategist at best (not meant as an insult). You asume a lot with your far fetched arguments.

I’ve no doubt that some did. Likewise, I’m sure that some agreed with her decision. We’re all making assumptions.