7 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

In Legends, Ki-Adi-Mundi had 5 wives and 7 daughters all while sitting on the Jedi High Council during the prequel movies..

Just saying, but this particular bit was already Legends long before Disney aquired Lucasfilm. It got decanonised by Lucas around the time the Clone Wars show decanonised most of the clone Wars era EU.

15 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I believe the term is BAMF Jedi

No, that would be this:

4 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

No, that would be this:

Not getting the joke

bad @$$ mother f-er = BAMF

5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Not getting the joke

bad @$$ mother f-er = BAMF

“Bamf” is the written sound effect used in comics when Nightcrawler teleports.

Jackson’s saber had simply “BMF” inscribed, as a reference to Pulp Fiction. (“Give me my wallet. It’s the one that says ‘bad motherf-er’ on it.”) with the term occasionally adopted by Jackson.
(Ex: Jim Carrey won the “Best Villain” MTV Movie Award for The Cable Guy , and in his speech said, “This proves you all think I’m a bad motherf-er.” Jackson was on stage shortly after and addressed Carrey, “Jim? Funny motherf-er. Sam? Bad motherf-er.” 🤣 )

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Jackson’s saber had simply “BMF” inscribed, as a reference to Pulp Fiction.

This.

On 1/7/2020 at 10:55 PM, DarkHorse said:

Both Jedi Knight Luke and the innocent Child use Force Choke on screen. There is plenty of grey in Star Wars.

Though it is important to note that no one thinks either is a "grey Jedi" and Luke is very clear about not being one.

Indeed, otherwise Christains would stop being Christians the moment they commit their first sin. The thing about organised faiths particularly* is that their tenants are something to aspire to, not something that every individual person would have to do. People are fine to make mistakes as long as they understand why those moral codes are in society in the first place; to be decent people who follows the law and not murder one another in conflicts. Some wealthy Christians gathered up a whole bunch of "holy artefacts" and gathered them into a city, and held a celebration that brought a ton of currency into a city every year or so, that latter interpretation is how I imagine the PT Jedi to be, individuals who traded hard work for a relatively cushy job in administration, free to study all the lore in the universe as long as you answer when the Supreme Chanc needs a problem resolving. Luke seemed very much the activist, though that in itself evidently posed some troubles.

How do you worship an actual entity, a universe wide energy field that has no way of communicating with the natural world but has a measurable effect? Interpretation. Humanity have done much more with less.


*It's worth noting that I am a non-believer, at least as far as organised religion goes. Probably best not to ask me about it.

"1993 was the year Superman died and Venom got his own series. Just keep that in mind." -- TvTropes page quote for the Dark Age of Comic Books.

Anti-heroes are a lot older than the Prequels, but even going by the presentation of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and even Luke in the OT, they aren't Anti-Heroes. They're straight-up virtuous, righteous, morally upstanding heroes. They may not have always been right , but they held to what they believed in and did the best they could to see good done.

I've brought this up before in discussions about Grey Jedi, and it's the reason I opened with that quote. Grey Jedi are older than the Prequels. . . I recall the term being kicked around back in the WEG d6 days. To draw the analogy as clearly as I can:

Jedi are supposed to be Superman: Incorruptible and always doing their very best within a solid, old-fashioned, black-and-white view of Good and Evil.

But a lot of people think Superman is boring, lame, and no fun, so want to be Batman, because he's cool and edgy and does whatever it takes to put the bad guys down.

(Neither of these simple sentences are truly representative of the characters of Superman and Batman, just the broadest strokes most who aren't dedicated fans are familiar with.)

Thing is, you can still tell really interesting stories even with a character who cleaves to good-old-fashioned values system. I was one of very few people who didn't object to Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel because I recall (secondhand) the time in the comics where he did kill Zod and his followers with Kryptonite (alternate universes were involved). And that decision weighed on him in future comics, which is good character development. A character who has rules they never break means you can get a lot of drama out of what happens when they have to , or perhaps more importantly should , break those rules. At what point are Joker's murders Batman's fault? It's not Batman's fault Joker is insane, but it is Batman's fault he's still breathing. Is breaking the rules just this once the right thing to do for a greater good? Or does it open the door and make it easier to break the rules next time? And the time after that? Does the threshold keep dropping, until finally you're just as bad as the bad guys you're getting rid of? Anyone who's played the Injustice games knows what I'm talking about.

But. . . there's a lot of gamers who just don't want to engage with that narrative. Maybe they just violently reject the idea of any checks on their character's behavior. Maybe they just look at all scores on a character sheet as "higher is better," and if they're forced to lose a score, even one as abstract as Morality, see it as a punishment to be argued against. Maybe they just want to kill monsters and get phat lewtz and ignore any of the moral ramifications of their actions.

And that's where, in my experience, Grey Jedi really had their inception. The "Screw Morality, I wanna be a murderhobo and not get punished for it" mentality. Not saying that's every single person who's ever had an interest in Grey Jedi, just every single one I've encountered in my Star Wars gaming life thus far.

3 hours ago, ErikModi said:

"1993 was the year Superman died and Venom got his own series. Just keep that in mind." -- TvTropes page quote for the Dark Age of Comic Books.

Anti-heroes are a lot older than the Prequels, but even going by the presentation of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and even Luke in the OT, they aren't Anti-Heroes. They're straight-up virtuous, righteous, morally upstanding heroes. They may not have always been right , but they held to what they believed in and did the best they could to see good done.

I've brought this up before in discussions about Grey Jedi, and it's the reason I opened with that quote. Grey Jedi are older than the Prequels. . . I recall the term being kicked around back in the WEG d6 days. To draw the analogy as clearly as I can:

Jedi are supposed to be Superman: Incorruptible and always doing their very best within a solid, old-fashioned, black-and-white view of Good and Evil.

But a lot of people think Superman is boring, lame, and no fun, so want to be Batman, because he's cool and edgy and does whatever it takes to put the bad guys down.

(Neither of these simple sentences are truly representative of the characters of Superman and Batman, just the broadest strokes most who aren't dedicated fans are familiar with.)

Thing is, you can still tell really interesting stories even with a character who cleaves to good-old-fashioned values system. I was one of very few people who didn't object to Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel because I recall (secondhand) the time in the comics where he did kill Zod and his followers with Kryptonite (alternate universes were involved). And that decision weighed on him in future comics, which is good character development. A character who has rules they never break means you can get a lot of drama out of what happens when they have to , or perhaps more importantly should , break those rules. At what point are Joker's murders Batman's fault? It's not Batman's fault Joker is insane, but it is Batman's fault he's still breathing. Is breaking the rules just this once the right thing to do for a greater good? Or does it open the door and make it easier to break the rules next time? And the time after that? Does the threshold keep dropping, until finally you're just as bad as the bad guys you're getting rid of? Anyone who's played the Injustice games knows what I'm talking about.

But. . . there's a lot of gamers who just don't want to engage with that narrative. Maybe they just violently reject the idea of any checks on their character's behavior. Maybe they just look at all scores on a character sheet as "higher is better," and if they're forced to lose a score, even one as abstract as Morality, see it as a punishment to be argued against. Maybe they just want to kill monsters and get phat lewtz and ignore any of the moral ramifications of their actions.

And that's where, in my experience, Grey Jedi really had their inception. The "Screw Morality, I wanna be a murderhobo and not get punished for it" mentality. Not saying that's every single person who's ever had an interest in Grey Jedi, just every single one I've encountered in my Star Wars gaming life thus far.

Possibly. But those i see pushing for it want the power with out real consequences.

I should count myself lucky. I have never had a player want to play a "gray" Jedi. To date all have striven to be exemplars of the Living Force and eschew the dark side.

21 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

“Bamf” is the written sound effect used in comics when Nightcrawler teleports.

Jackson’s saber had simply “BMF” inscribed, as a reference to Pulp Fiction. (“Give me my wallet. It’s the one that says ‘bad motherf-er’ on it.”) with the term occasionally adopted by Jackson.
(Ex: Jim Carrey won the “Best Villain” MTV Movie Award for The Cable Guy , and in his speech said, “This proves you all think I’m a bad motherf-er.” Jackson was on stage shortly after and addressed Carrey, “Jim? Funny motherf-er. Sam? Bad motherf-er.” 🤣 )

Speaking of mace Windu's lightsaber.. my son is Samuel Lucas or *Samuel L.* He's almost 2.5 years but in Dec 2018 I bought an 89 sabers mace windu lightsaber installed by Vader's vault (their store is 19 minutes from my dad's house in Cummings GA) as my son's 5th birthday present, one of those "you're father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" lightsaber things. I was planning his 5th birthday party since before he was born. It came in I think june or july, there are youtube videos (unboxing https://youtu.be/B8hZDdTx80U and review videos also of my son playing with my saber) on the eliaswindrider channel regarding the sabers (real name keith). It came with a crystal shard 4.5 sound card (which at the time was the best plecter labs card that would fit in it). So we went to visit my dad from Dec 25, 2019 to Jan 5, 2020 I brought both his saber and mine with me and left them with Vader's vault to get upgraded to the cfx (crystal focus 10) card. Will get smooth swing, stab sounds, chainable spin sounds etc. Out of the upgrade. I will have spent over $1100 on his saber after the upgrade, a couple of months later and I wouldn't have had to pay for the $300 upgrade but they would have sold out of maces had I waited ) after the upgrade mine will have costed over $1050.

I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to get in touch with Samuel L Jackson to get him to autograph a picture of himself dressed as mace windu

with "Happy 5th Birthday Samuel L. Dalbey from Samuel L Jackson."

I bet they wouldn't be half as popular if we called them beige instead of grey.

On 1/11/2020 at 8:20 AM, Nytwyng said:

No, that would be this:

Now to convince my GM to let me play this. Wonder what species I could use that has Teleportation and a tail?

I posted this else where but figured I would bring it up here -- the grey jedi the one of dubious middle of the road morals is just as wrong as the Sith or Jedi for Dark and Light are not Evil nor Good they just are. Where do I pull this from? Well way back in the beginning before the concept of the Sith Order and the Jedi Order even existed when there was only the Je'daii Order. Whose whole intent was to maintain balance by using both the Dark and the Light side of the force because too much Dark or too much Light and things got out of balance and a great Force storm would rage presumably causing lots of damage in its wake. So were these folks morally bland -- no -- on the contrary they were mostly focused on the good but maintaining a balance within the force. I would say Emotion (good emotions) is what they used to power the abilities while Control (lack of emotion) was what they used to manipulate that power effectively.

So this seeming concept of imbalance creating Force storms still exists and is played out continuously because they have both missed the boat. Because as they state in the movies the Force seeks balance, if a powerful Sith Lord arises then the Force will answer by raising up a powerful Jedi Master to confront them and the the Force storm will rage across the universe (in the form of a great war) and cause lots of damage until the balance is restored.

But again the Je'daii Order was not evil nor was it bland -- it was a force for good that schismed when it suddenly faced an extremely imbalanced Force user -- was this the fault of the Force? I do not think so I think this was because the Je'daii Order while they had a better understanding of the Force than either the Sith or Jedi Orders -- they were overlooking something. This something was they never asked why there were 9 Pyramids. Everything else about the benefactors that set up this training ground spoke loudly that nothing was without purpose. The Dark Moon, the Light Moon, the Force storms if balance was not maintained -- and 8 Pyramids with 1 Primary Pyramid ... why?

I am exploring my own answer to this but would be interested in anyone else's thoughts on what the 9 Pyramids were supposed to represent if you weave that into this concept I present about the Force that draws power from Emotion (Dark) and exerts Control (Light) upon it so that everything stays in balance but remains a force for good and not bland middle of the road uncommittedness that is reflected in this concept of a Grey Jedi which btw is the same thing as calling them a Grey Sith or maybe we just call them Wishy-Washy since that is what they really are.

On 12/31/2019 at 3:36 PM, KungFuFerret said:

I know I'm tilting at windmills here, as it's become such a commonly used term that my hopes are doomed to failure, but I will try anyway! But hey, as EVERY...SINGLE...STAR WARS thing tells us, Hope is everything! It will save the day with it's ability to.....hope at stuff! Because hope is just that powerful, and it has NOTHING at all to do with fanservice name dropping to New Hope in an effort to appease the fanbase!! So here's hoping it will work!

Seriously, don't call people who want to play with Dark side powers and actions but not be a bad guy Grey Jedi. They are not "grey" Jedi. This is someone wanting to gain the positive benefits of the term Jedi, in common usage and understanding, (someone who is powerful, but also a force for good in the universe), but also without having to actually adhere to their philosophies and doctrine of behavior. The Jedi Code is very clear on what someone has to do to be a Jedi, and doing things that contradict that, mean you are NOT a Jedi. Also, someone who is basically a Sith, but tries to not say they are a murderhobo, because of some token mention of the Jedi codes, and occasionally not killing and enslaving the people around them, equally doesn't make them a "Grey Jedi" from the other direction. They are simply a less homicidal psychopath, than the other homicidal psychopaths they are around.

It's like trying to say you are a carnivorous vegan. Or a murderous pacifist. They are terms that are by definition, contrary and mutually exclusive.

That is all, proceed to ignore me and continue calling them that anyway! Because I know you all will! *tilts at a windmill one last time*

Hmm So where are these black and white Jedi Codes you refer to? The only references I can dig up are pretty fuzzy like:

"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force."

So assuming this real list of "rules" exists somewhere you are saying as soon as you break one you aren't a Jedi? Who does that leave then as I can't think of a single movie Jedi that didn't break at least on of what I consider the Jedi Ideal behaviors at least once. Perhaps "Grey Jedi" isn't a title, but a descriptor of a Jedi as they are in the process of slipping out of Jedi-hood, assuming they aren't kicked out first time they get mad.

In light of this necromancy, I propose instead to use "Grey Sith".

13 hours ago, Darq said:

"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force."

So assuming this real list of "rules" exists somewhere you are saying as soon as you break one you aren't a Jedi? Who does that leave then as I can't think of a single movie Jedi that didn't break at least on of what I consider the Jedi Ideal behaviors at least once. Perhaps "Grey Jedi" isn't a title, but a descriptor of a Jedi as they are in the process of slipping out of Jedi-hood, assuming they aren't kicked out first time they get mad.

"They're more of what you might call... guidelines."
Captain Hector Barbossa, PotC: CotBP

And I think that's a major part of the major tenets of the Jedi Code, is that they're more or less guidelines on how to live one's life in relative harmony with the Force. As the Jedi are living beings with biological and emotional complications, none of them are going to be able to 100% adhere to that code 100% of the time. As you said, there's not a single Jedi we see in the movies that is able to 100% adhere to those tenets.

I know that Obi-Wan mentioned in TPM that if Qui-Gon "just followed the Code, he'd be on the Council," but I think that referred to a larger body of dogma that the Order had built over over the centuries since the Ruusan Reformations, and not specifically to the tenets you listed above. Then again, Qui-Gon does let his emotions (empathy and compassion for all living things) influence his judgement, so it could be said he breaks tenets one and three on a regular basis, at least from a strictly dogmatic point of view (which was a flaw held by much of the Jedi Order in their final years).

Now granted, it's my own personal take, but I've always seen the Jedi Code being less a set of scriptures and more a set of idealized principles; a Jedi might falter or fail on those principles on occasion, but such occasions should be rare and extraordinary circumstances, and usually is followed by some measure of contrition. Heck, in our real world we have members of various holy orders of all the differing faiths, who follow similar scriptures on how to live their lives that don't always live up to those ideals, and they're not instantly booted out of their respective orders (barring major sins such as deliberate murder or similarly despicable acts), but instead have to perform some form of contrition depending on severity of the offense and the order's respective doctrine.

On 12/31/2019 at 5:36 PM, KungFuFerret said:

The Jedi Code is very clear on what someone has to do to be a Jedi, and doing things that contradict that, mean you are NOT a Jedi.

(I agree though, still calling themselves Jedi is wrong)

On 1/3/2020 at 9:02 AM, Swordbreaker said:

Most of the time, it just ends up being a murder hobo trying to justify bad role playing. Something something whataboutism, something something moral ambiguity.

But that's a different issue and that is what the GM is for. If you want to play a character struggling with the duality of the force and the whole question of doing bad to do good or making a sacrifice to save the many ****'S YAH! Good example in Legacy, Jacen Solos goes dark side and becomes a Darth, because the Republic is being invaded and do to all that free will, they are fragmented. He decides the only way they can beat back the invaders is to force everyone to cooperate and the best way to do that is take away the decision making process and create an Empire (IMHO a much better reason than the movies "Uhm I want more power.... um because...").

Npw if one of my players wants tries to abuse it - have their cake and Force Lightning too, well then they will rapidly continue to slide to the dark side...

My 2 credits.

So try this one on for size: Every single Jedi who participated in or through inaction allowed the Clone Wars to happen would have lost there Jedi status! How do you morally justify going to war because a system wanted to leave the Republic?

54 minutes ago, Darq said:

But that's a different issue and that is what the GM is for. If you want to play a character struggling with the duality of the force and the whole question of doing bad to do good or making a sacrifice to save the many ****'S YAH! Good example in Legacy, Jacen Solos goes dark side and becomes a Darth, because the Republic is being invaded and do to all that free will, they are fragmented. He decides the only way they can beat back the invaders is to force everyone to cooperate and the best way to do that is take away the decision making process and create an Empire (IMHO a much better reason than the movies "Uhm I want more power.... um because...").

I'm fairly certain that back in the old EU, Palpatine had the exact same motivation: he knew ahead of time of that same invasion that was coming, and created the Empire to stop it.

Which seemed terribly out of character for the cackling lunatic to me.

51 minutes ago, Darq said:

So try this one on for size: Every single Jedi who participated in or through inaction allowed the Clone Wars to happen would have lost there Jedi status! How do you morally justify going to war because a system wanted to leave the Republic?

What even is "Jedi status"?

You are a Jedi because the Jedi Order (or the Council) says you are a Jedi. You stop being a Jedi when the Order kicks you out. How well you follow some kind of code doesn't really affect things all that much. I mean, if Darth Vader gets to be a Jedi again after doing one good thing, and gets to be a Force ghost, being a Jedi can't possibly really mean that much.

You can easily justify going to war because many of the Separatist higher-ups were genocidal lunatics who targetted Republic worlds. And they were backed by a Sith Lord, which, as a Jedi, you kind of have to dogmatically oppose.

On 8/16/2020 at 5:16 PM, micheldebruyn said:

And they were backed by a Sith Lord, which, as a Jedi, you kind of have to dogmatically oppose.

So was the Republic.....

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

So was the Republic.....

Yeah, but they didn't know about that for certain until just before before Order 66.

Let's be real here: the Jedi were morons because otherwise the plot doesn't work anymore. I don't even think they were wrong to get involved in the Clone Wars, although I do think they did it for the wrong reasons, which tainted them.

21 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Yeah, but they didn't know about that for certain until just before before Order 66.

Neither Sidious nor Dooku advertised their Sith Lord status to the general public.

22 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Let's be real here: the Jedi were morons because otherwise the plot doesn't work anymore. I don't even think they were wrong to get involved in the Clone Wars, although I do think they did it for the wrong reasons, which tainted them.

Oh, absolutely. They had to be idiots for all the dominos to fall properly.