So I've had this happen a couple of times. Me and my opponent not agreeing on whether a forest is light vegetation or heavy.
Can we please fix this BS???
JUST MAKE THERE BE ONLY A SINGLE TYPE OF FOREST:
This would make things soooooooo much easier. It would also mean that unhindered/low profile would both be useful in all forests - not just one or the other.
Rant over.
Just roll off before the game.
Nothing to fix here. Agree on something or roll off. No need to force it on all of us. I've been playing Legion since day one and not a single time I had a quarrel over terrain. Shortly discuss, decide (don't be stubborn), done.
All terrain blocks line of sight, so no need to make that clarification.
3 hours ago, arnoldrew said:All terrain blocks line of sight, so no need to make that clarification.
I think the desired intent is for a forest base to block any LOS that would cross over it.
I think its unnecessary in Legion though. The terrain rules are simple and easy to use out of the box.
I do often find myself wishing for a middle ground between the two current options. Something that only gives light cover (because that's more interesting than Heavy in almost any situation) but still acts as difficult terrain to troopers. I'd probably go a step farther and keep it open for ground vehicles but impassible for repulsors. Just feels fluffy and interesting.
Light Difficult Open Impassible
1 hour ago, LunarSol said:I do often find myself wishing for a middle ground between the two current options. Something that only gives light cover (because that's more interesting than Heavy in almost any situation) but still acts as difficult terrain to troopers. I'd probably go a step farther and keep it open for ground vehicles but impassible for repulsors. Just feels fluffy and interesting.
Light Difficult Open Impassible
Nothing prevents you from doing so. We actually use deep snow fields for exactly that. Difficult terrain for Infantry, light cover when standing in it.
1 hour ago, LunarSol said:I do often find myself wishing for a middle ground between the two current options. Something that only gives light cover (because that's more interesting than Heavy in almost any situation) but still acts as difficult terrain to troopers. I'd probably go a step farther and keep it open for ground vehicles but impassible for repulsors. Just feels fluffy and interesting.
Light Difficult Open Impassible
I'm not sure why repulsor vehicles as a whole shouldn't be able to go through an area that ground vehicles can traverse, since there are two upcoming repulsor tanks which I would imagine could push over some small trees like tracked vehicles.
3 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:I'm not sure why repulsor vehicles as a whole shouldn't be able to go through an area that ground vehicles can traverse, since there are two upcoming repulsor tanks which I would imagine could push over some small trees like tracked vehicles.
Because half the repulsor restrictions seem to be designed to give speeder bikes something to slam into; particularly with trees. Most of them are able to go over them anyway unless you make them infinitely tall. Just can't stop inside, which is mechanically kind of interesting.
7 hours ago, LunarSol said:Because half the repulsor restrictions seem to be designed to give speeder bikes something to slam into; particularly with trees. Most of them are able to go over them anyway unless you make them infinitely tall. Just can't stop inside, which is mechanically kind of interesting.
The trees just to be Height X+1 for anything with Speeder X to have a problem, infinitely tall isn't actually a requirement. As well, if the terrain is less than the X of the speeder value, then the "Speeder" vehicle can end their movement on top of impassable terrain without a problem (if it can be placed flat), same way buildings work, which are defined as impassible to all units, yet repulsor vehicles with speeder can end their movement on them without crashing. If the vehicle can go over, then it can stop inside (depending on ability to place the model).
You're of course welcome to define terrain any way you and your opponent agree on, but to me a repulsor tank should be able to drive through any area that a treaded tank or walker treats as Open barring some unusual property. If the ground vehicle is struggling to push through thick vines and pick their way through dense, huge trees, then it makes sense to me that a repulsor tank would have no hope of traversing that area. But, woods that thick make the most sense as Heavy cover in my mind: Plenty of places for infantry to find cover, and a blaster bolt isn't likely to burn through the trunk of a tree a tank can't easily push over. However, you could have a terrain piece that has crystals or some other "thing" that interferes with the repulsor field and slightly distorts light, justifying light cover while not interfering with the movement of infantry or ground vehicles.
On 12/3/2019 at 11:32 PM, arnoldrew said:All terrain blocks line of sight, so no need to make that clarification.
Where does it specifically say in the RRG that area terrain blocks LOS???
On 12/3/2019 at 11:26 PM, SailorMeni said:Nothing to fix here. Agree on something or roll off. No need to force it on all of us. I've been playing Legion since day one and not a single time I had a quarrel over terrain. Shortly discuss, decide (don't be stubborn), done.
The classification of forests into one type would only streamline the rules.
8 hours ago, lologrelol said:Where does it specifically say in the RRG that area terrain blocks LOS???
The classification of forests into one type would only streamline the rules.
Page 47, Line of Sight. Everything blocks line of sight, unless it specifically doesn't (like troopers).
Edited by arnoldrew1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:Page 47, Line of Sight. Everything blocks line of sight, unless it specifically doesn't (like troopers).
It would be more accurate to say that anything that literally blocks line of sight blocks line of sight. Area terrain does not always block line of sight, and frequently doesn't. It only blocks line of sight if there is a physical obstruction covering part of the defender.
RRG, Page 8, under Area Terrain:
"Any attacks made that fire through or into this zone, even if line of sight is not physically blocked by a feature of this terrain, are subject to the effects of the area terrain."
27 minutes ago, Lochlan said:It would be more accurate to say that anything that literally blocks line of sight blocks line of sight. Area terrain does not always block line of sight, and frequently doesn't. It only blocks line of sight if there is a physical obstruction covering part of the defender.
RRG, Page 8, under Area Terrain:
"Any attacks made that fire through or into this zone, even if line of sight is not physically blocked by a feature of this terrain, are subject to the effects of the area terrain."
I'm not sure what you mean, given that area terrain blocks line of sight just like every other type of terrain.
Many games have rules that allow you to see into area terrain but not through it. So, for example, if LOS passed through a forest it would be blocked to things on the other side, even if there aren't enough physical trees to actually block LOS, since, if there were, it would probably mean there's no room to place models.
23 minutes ago, LunarSol said:Many games have rules that allow you to see into area terrain but not through it. So, for example, if LOS passed through a forest it would be blocked to things on the other side, even if there aren't enough physical trees to actually block LOS, since, if there were, it would probably mean there's no room to place models.
If there aren't enough trees to block line of sight I don't get why you would make it block line of sight. It just seems like a totally unneccessary rule to me.
33 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:I'm not sure what you mean, given that area terrain blocks line of sight just like every other type of terrain.
Yes, in the sense that line of sight is blocked if two models cannot draw an unobstructed line between them, regardless of what is obstructing said line. But a flat piece of area terrain defined as, say, a height 1 forest, does not block line of sight, though players could define it as such if they agreed to. @lologrelol is wanting "forest" to be a pre-defined type of area terrain that always blocks line of sight.
12 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:If there aren't enough trees to block line of sight I don't get why you would make it block line of sight. It just seems like a totally unneccessary rule to me.
Because the ability to move through something without being able to shoot through it is a unique gameplay interaction. Having enough trees in a forest to block LOS just isn't practical; particularly if you also want to put models in the same forest.
19 minutes ago, LunarSol said:Because the ability to move through something without being able to shoot through it is a unique gameplay interaction. Having enough trees in a forest to block LOS just isn't practical; particularly if you also want to put models in the same forest.
Then it sounds like they shouldn't block line of sight? If a guy is standing between two trees he should be able to be shot and not be immune to fire do to being in a forest.
Edited by arnoldrewSo standing in the forest provides cover because the enemy has to shoot between the trees to hit you but standing on the other side of the forest does not because.... the enemy can shoot between the trees to hit you?
The point is really the unique gameplay interaction (something you can move through but not shoot through). It's not about making it more real or anything. Trying to apply reality to LOS rules in minis games is a short path to madness anyway.
44 minutes ago, LunarSol said:So standing in the forest provides cover because the enemy has to shoot between the trees to hit you but standing on the other side of the forest does not because.... the enemy can shoot between the trees to hit you?
The point is really the unique gameplay interaction (something you can move through but not shoot through). It's not about making it more real or anything. Trying to apply reality to LOS rules in minis games is a short path to madness anyway.
Shooting through area terrain gives cover to defenders behind it.
RRG, Page 8, under Area Terrain (emphasis mine):
" Any attacks made that fire through or into this zone, even if line of sight is not physically blocked by a feature of this terrain, are subject to the effects of the area terrain ."
5 hours ago, Lochlan said:Shooting through area terrain gives cover to defenders behind it.
RRG, Page 8, under Area Terrain (emphasis mine):
" Any attacks made that fire through or into this zone, even if line of sight is not physically blocked by a feature of this terrain, are subject to the effects of the area terrain ."
Huh.... has that always been there? I have somehow never noticed it...
9 hours ago, LunarSol said:Many games have rules that allow you to see into area terrain but not through it. So, for example, if LOS passed through a forest it would be blocked to things on the other side, even if there aren't enough physical trees to actually block LOS, since, if there were, it would probably mean there's no room to place models.
Yeah. That's why I would like this game to define forests, and to define whether area terrain blocks LOS or not. Otherwise as you said, it comes to a gentleman's agreement as to whether it does or not.
7 hours ago, Lochlan said:Shooting through area terrain gives cover to defenders behind it.
RRG, Page 8, under Area Terrain (emphasis mine):
" Any attacks made that fire through or into this zone, even if line of sight is not physically blocked by a feature of this terrain, are subject to the effects of the area terrain ."
I'm not disputing area terrain providing cover to something behind it.
I'm saying that the rules do not specify whether area terrain does, or does not, block LOS.
On 12/3/2019 at 11:26 PM, SailorMeni said:Nothing to fix here. Agree on something or roll off. No need to force it on all of us. I've been playing Legion since day one and not a single time I had a quarrel over terrain. Shortly discuss, decide (don't be stubborn), done.
I and my friends are able to come to agreements about terrain. But that does not excuse vague rules. Defined and easy to understand rules make it easier to have a good game.
I would hope, as I really love this game, that the designers take this design philosophy seriously; because it can only improve, and not hurt, the game.
2 hours ago, lologrelol said:I'm not disputing area terrain providing cover to something behind it.
I'm saying that the rules do not specify whether area terrain does, or does not, block LOS.
I know you weren't asking about that, but LunarSol was.
However, that RRG entry I quoted also answers your question. If it is possible to shoot through area terrain, it clearly doesn't automatically block line of sight. Anything that physically blocks line of sight (as in you cannot see any part of one model from the other model's perspective) blocks line of sight, unless the rules specifically say that it doesn't (e.g. Troopers). If the area terrain in question physically blocks line of sight, it blocks line of sight. If it doesn't, it doesn't, unless the players agree that it does.
The rules are "unclear" because area terrain can vary a lot. People can be using physical trees on bases, a base "zone" with removable trees, or a flat, mousepad-like or printed tree zone that is very convenient to move models onto.
It's fairly clear that if you have a physical, 3D forest with, say, a large tree (larger than a trooper base) or a large rock that actually blocks line of sight, then that obstacle blocks line of sight, but the rest of the defined zone does not, and instead applies the rules for that area terrain.
Otherwise, if you're using the simplest type of area terrain, flat printed terrain, then firing through the zone applies the appropriate zone effect according to the table.
There's a lot of "ruling by omission" in Legion (IE. cards that require line of sight specify that they do, moves that work when engaged specify it, etc), so by omission area terrain does not block line of sight, because it's never stated that it does, unless a feature of said terrain physically blocks line of sight, such as a large ruin base with a single whole wall in the middle.