Hi there,

I found that I am unsure how to implement rules that affect Kept Dice, like e.g. the Still the Elements kiho or the Joriki title ability.

The question is whether the ir rules come into effect before or after Explosive Successes explode.

An example: The Still the Elements kiho says: "...you may choose 1 kept die from the check. Set those dice to blank faces."
Now, in the flow diagram on page 23, Kept Dice is Step 5. Let's say the enemy has rolled 1 Explosive Success and 1 regular success.

a) If the effect of the kiho sets in directly after Step 5, I can turn his Explosive Success into a blank and he has missed me.

b) If the effect of the kiho sets in after the first line of Step 6, the die explodes first. If it produces a success, I can afterwards turn the Explosive Success into a blank, but the two successes will still hit me.

The question also arises with the Yoriki title ability "...you may alter any number of kept dice containing Success or Explosive Success to results set to Opportunity".

The case seems clear with Channeling: Since it explicitely says "after Step 5: Choose Kept Dice", I would say that Explosive Successes can be channeled before exploding. They only explode when the actual invocation is cast and the channeling has ended.

Which interpretation to you follow?

2 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:

The question is whether the ir rules come into effect before or after Explosive Successes explode.

You only resolve kept dice. So you only 'explode' an explosive success if it's a kept die.

It's not really made clear, but for it to achieve anything, regardless of the result in question most of these 'to a kept die' results are (in my opinion) going to be 'after kept dice are chosen but before they are resolved'

4 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:

The Still the Elements kiho says: "...you may choose 1 kept die from the check. Set those dice to blank faces."

See above, because otherwise turning an result blank after your opponent has spent would be meaningless. So logically the same applies to - if you haven't resolved it, you haven't (and don't) roll the extra dice.

Note that as a Kiho, you've spent your action to 'switch on' a ring-specific shield; it's a very powerful effect because your opponent knew you were protected from attacks using that ring and chose to use it anyway (presumably because they were confident they could soak the loss of one result and still hurt you).

9 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:

Yoriki title ability "...you may alter any number of kept dice containing Success or Explosive Success to results set to Opportunity"

Same logic; it changes after the kept dice are chosen but before they are resolved; double-dipping by getting to resolve the first and rolling extra kept dice is deliberately trying for free stuff (and would contradict the approach for still the elements, making it unable to affect results.

12 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:

The case seems clear with Channeling: Since it explicitely says "after Step 5: Choose Kept Dice", I would say that Explosive Successes can be channeled before exploding. They only explode when the actual invocation is cast and the channeling has ended.

Agreed. And a good precedent to use. A channelled dice is 'set aside' and not resolved at all.

Note that Striking As Air is slightly different; because it's triggered by spending , it occurs in the 'resolve ' step - which means in theory you can roll a , keep it, resolve it, and then stick it in a bag for next turn as well. Also note that it works on 'rolled dice' - so with air 3, martial 1, you can roll , , , , and keep , , , and use striking as air to stick the 'unused' in the bag to guarantee a success (and possibly more than one) next round.

On 11/25/2019 at 12:45 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Note that Striking As Air is slightly different; because it's triggered by spending , it occurs in the 'resolve ' step - which means in theory you can roll a , keep it, resolve it, and then stick it in a bag for next turn as well.

Uh, in the text, it says "these dice become dropped dice," so I'm pretty sure you can't use it and also bank it. Of course, I'm in the camp that says Striking as Air is painfully underpowered, so I'm not going to tell you it shouldn't work that way.

3 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Uh, in the text, it says "these dice become dropped dice," so I'm pretty sure you can't use it and also bank it. Of course, I'm in the camp that says Striking as Air is painfully underpowered, so I'm not going to tell you it shouldn't work that way.

They do become dropped dice. But they become dropped dice when you trigger Striking As Air, which happens at the resolve opportunities step, which is after explosive successes have generated their additional dice (because explosive successes become first).

So whilst you lose the 'original' die, there's nothing stopping you keeping the bonus die.

9 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Uh, in the text, it says "these dice become dropped dice," so I'm pretty sure you can't use it and also bank it. Of course, I'm in the camp that says Striking as Air is painfully underpowered, so I'm not going to tell you it shouldn't work that way.

still underpowered, or at least, not worth getting unless it is a forced starting kata, in which case, well, you just have it for that one time it will be useful I suppose.

according to that sequence of resolution, it means that you take strife before striking as air resolve. Potentially taking strife from a dropped die.
plus at the cost of opportunities to keep said dice... hefty imo.

on top of that you need to roll the SAME skill next turn? And will drop a dice to replace it?

...doesn't mean it will never get used, but very, very rarely, if ever.

Not that it is the only useless Kata though, striking as fire is almost as bad, and battle in the mind is kind of a joke.

2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

according to that sequence of resolution, it means that you take strife before striking as air resolve. Potentially taking strife from a dropped die.
plus at the cost of opportunities to keep said dice... hefty imo.

That's correct. Both Explosive Successes and Strife will resolve before Striking As Air can resolve.

2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

on top of that you need to roll the SAME skill next turn? And will drop a dice to replace it?

Pretty much. It's nice if you rolled an explosive success on a skill die but otherwise failed, or a result you 'don't need'. It doesn't pair too badly with Thunderclap Strike - the latter is a relatively hard TN3, but it's one of those kata which don't use bonus successes for anything, and carrying a 'free' opportunity forward from an initiative check isn't too unlikely.

It's good when you've got a defender with a very high TN to hit, and need a garuanteed explosive success to have a realistic chance of hitting. It's still a poor second to having your mate assist you, though.

I think it's still distinctly better than Battle In The Mind.