Bah. Well, at least noone's called Blue Ace a bad choice for wingleader.

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

Bah. Well, at least noone's called Blue Ace a bad choice for wingleader.

White hard boosts are good for repositioning the entire wing. Maybe swap out Primed for Pattern (white turn boost off of a Tallon or Kturn has value), the R5s for either R2s or Optics (depending if you really want the extra hp to tank more damage enough that you're willing to lose a round of shooting on one of the escorting T-70s), and up BB to BB-8 (BB-8's boost option doesn't have the same issues as the barrel roll option that BB-8 and the "generic" BBs have does). Comes out to 1 point cheaper:

Kare Kun (52)
Heroic (1)
BB-8 (6)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Red Squadron Expert (47)
Heroic (1)
R2 Astromech (4)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (47)
Heroic (1)
R2 Astromech (4)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (47)
Heroic (1)
R2 Astromech (4)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Total: 231

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

or

Kare Kun (52)
Heroic (1)
BB-8 (6)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Red Squadron Expert (47)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Advanced Optics (4)

Red Squadron Expert (47)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Advanced Optics (4)

Red Squadron Expert (47)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Advanced Optics (4)
Total: 231

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

If i would fly wing of Vulture Droids with Energy cell charges, they cant reload those after they use them right? If so, I feel like it would be better idea to fly generic ships and have wing leader with good pilot ability and maybe some upgrades that would help those.

11 minutes ago, Zazaa32 said:

If i would fly wing of Vulture Droids with Energy cell charges, they cant reload those after they use them right?

Correct, mostly. While formed up in the wing they cannot, when split from the wing the can.

15 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Correct, mostly. While formed up in the wing they cannot, when split from the wing the can.

Yes! Thanks! New rules are still bit confusing to me.

21 hours ago, Zazaa32 said:

If i would fly wing of Vulture Droids with Energy cell charges, they cant reload those after they use them right? If so, I feel like it would be better idea to fly generic ships and have wing leader with good pilot ability and maybe some upgrades that would help those.

You can end formation at End phase. Do a 2 Straight next turn. Everyone reloads. Then, rejoin the formation!

I've been going back and forth between Kare Kun and Snap as wing leaders for a T70 wing. The aspect change of the wing with that 90 degree boost is startling. Snap can boost and still get mods. Snap can take Daredevil to have the option of imitating Kare Kun at a cost of stress. Daredevil Snap is 5 points more expensive and wastes his ability.

4 hours ago, ChahDresh said:

I've been going back and forth between Kare Kun and Snap as wing leaders for a T70 wing. The aspect change of the wing with that 90 degree boost is startling. Snap can boost and still get mods. Snap can take Daredevil to have the option of imitating Kare Kun at a cost of stress. Daredevil Snap is 5 points more expensive and wastes his ability.

Why not both? Two wings of 3 T-70's each. I know, most games won't have points for that, but I'm in a similar spot with TIE strikers: Duchess' maneuverability options are crazy because she can turn off Ailerons, but Pure Sabacc really likes to shunt damage away by being wing leader. So I've pretty much decided on two wings of 3 TIE strikers so that I get the advantages for both wing leaders (and I get to use all six of my TIE striker models).

11 hours ago, ChahDresh said:

I've been going back and forth between Kare Kun and Snap as wing leaders for a T70 wing.

I know you mean Snap Wexley, but I just thought of something. What about a Wing where the front 3 ships have Snapshot? Anyone lands within R 1-2 of that front of the Wing and they are going to get shot up!!! You can turn something like a Wing of Tie Fighters into something a little more scary.

Something interesting I learned from my one wing experience so far.

Wings seem to have two types.

1) The more obvious way to use it, and based on the actual wing leader card the intended way. The wingmen are pretty much there to count as additional "wounds" for the wingleader.

2) The wing leader is there just to reposition the wingmen.

I had 3 wings.

A 2-Y-wing team (lead by Drea). This was definitely type 1. The 2nd Y-Wing were just there to keep Drea alive.

A 3-Z-95 team (lead by N'dra). This was definitely type 2. N'dra had all movement upgrades (afterburner to be able to boost, expert handling for a white barrel roll). The plan was to use him to simply reposition the wingmen, who had actual missiles while he didn't, so that they could both reposition and action (target lock specifically) on higher initiative. If found this type to be less successful. The reposition part worked as planned. As did the higher initiative locks. But what I missed was in the end the opponent could still simply target and kill the wingmen before they got around to taking their initiative 1 shots.

A 3-Starviper team (lead by Guri). This was the best team. It incorporated both type 1 and type 2. Because Guri repositions wonderfully, dragging the lower init ships with. But even if you shot out the wingmen Guri alone as the sole surviving wing leader would still be a pain to deal with. So in future I will be trying to get more of this type of wings. Where both aspects can be utilised.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

Something interesting I learned from my one wing experience so far.

Wings seem to have two types.

1) The more obvious way to use it, and based on the actual wing leader card the intended way. The wingmen are pretty much there to count as additional "wounds" for the wingleader.

2) The wing leader is there just to reposition the wingmen.

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. I am not sure what you mean by #2 and think it might fit into a broader concept of a "general wing". Do you mean the Wing Leader is there only to reposition the others by being a Wing? Or do you mean that someone like Soontir Fel can be an extra-maneuverable Leader that can allow the Wing extra mobility that it normally wouldn't?

All Wings have a benefit of acting as a more powerful attacking unit. Yes, the Wing functions to move them all together, but it also means they can concentrate their firepower better than not being in a Wing. A Wing of 6 Generic T-65's does not really have a special Wing Leader nor any special repositioning ability, but it can be quite powerful. That many ships all together can really wreak havoc. It can be a powerful force on the table.

The Wing Leader needs to be kept alive for the Wing to actually function. If he is killed off, then you can't use a Wing anymore. This means that even a Generic Wing Leader is important. Also, the ability to shunt off damage to various wing mates means you can control who takes damage to spread things out a bit and keep more ships alive. That's also a hidden benefit.

Wings is also a mechanism meant to simplify the game and make it more fast paced. This is outside the idea of a benefit for a particular player.

You could probably break Wings and their Leaders into more sub-categories (and I am sure there are more options than this):

1. Very offensive Wing Leader (through ability, Initiative, or weapon system) that has wing mates there to defend him and boost his combat prowess. You can have Kylo Ren with Proton Torps surrounded by meat shields or a Darth Vader with Ties to preserve the Leader and boost his capabilities.
2. Wing Leaders that boost the effectiveness of the rest of the Wing. This can be someone like Howlrunner on the offensive, Serrissu on the defensive, or Garven Dreis for a more general boost.
3. Better mobility for the Wing. Soontir Fel immediately comes to mind here as someone who can get a bunch of Init 1 Alpha pilots to much better positions at a better Init phase.
4. Standard Wing that is just meant to coordinate a group of ships in a coordinated manner. This can be a group of Generics of any ship type. Y-wings with Ordnance are a good example. Borderline would be a Red Squadron Vet leading a bunch of Blue Squadron T-65's. Yes, you get a bit of a boost in init, but they are still just pretty generic.

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. I am not sure what you mean by #2 and think it might fit into a broader concept of a "general wing". Do you mean the Wing Leader is there only to reposition the others by being a Wing? Or do you mean that someone like Soontir Fel can be an extra-maneuverable Leader that can allow the Wing extra mobility that it normally wouldn't?

All Wings have a benefit of acting as a more powerful attacking unit. Yes, the Wing functions to move them all together, but it also means they can concentrate their firepower better than not being in a Wing. A Wing of 6 Generic T-65's does not really have a special Wing Leader nor any special repositioning ability, but it can be quite powerful. That many ships all together can really wreak havoc. It can be a powerful force on the table.

The Wing Leader needs to be kept alive for the Wing to actually function. If he is killed off, then you can't use a Wing anymore. This means that even a Generic Wing Leader is important. Also, the ability to shunt off damage to various wing mates means you can control who takes damage to spread things out a bit and keep more ships alive. That's also a hidden benefit.

Wings is also a mechanism meant to simplify the game and make it more fast paced. This is outside the idea of a benefit for a particular player.

You could probably break Wings and their Leaders into more sub-categories (and I am sure there are more options than this):

1. Very offensive Wing Leader (through ability, Initiative, or weapon system) that has wing mates there to defend him and boost his combat prowess. You can have Kylo Ren with Proton Torps surrounded by meat shields or a Darth Vader with Ties to preserve the Leader and boost his capabilities.
2. Wing Leaders that boost the effectiveness of the rest of the Wing. This can be someone like Howlrunner on the offensive, Serrissu on the defensive, or Garven Dreis for a more general boost.
3. Better mobility for the Wing. Soontir Fel immediately comes to mind here as someone who can get a bunch of Init 1 Alpha pilots to much better positions at a better Init phase.
4. Standard Wing that is just meant to coordinate a group of ships in a coordinated manner. This can be a group of Generics of any ship type. Y-wings with Ordnance are a good example. Borderline would be a Red Squadron Vet leading a bunch of Blue Squadron T-65's. Yes, you get a bit of a boost in init, but they are still just pretty generic.

Yeah, oversimplification for sure as it was meant as a very generalised statement to help me think about why I would make a wing. I have a regular opponent that have been flying Tie/sfs in a nice 2x2 block for ages. You don't need to be in a wing for that. Being in a wing has obvious advantages as you pointed out. It makes keeping the formation easier and saves a lot of time in big games, but what I was trying to define (more for myself, I just figured I'd share my thoughts) was if/when I play a wing, why do I do it, and what upgrades I should be putting on the wingmen and wing leader.

If the plan is simply to have similar ships keep their arcs aligned I guess thats good enough for some.

But I saw it as the 2 types (with a 3rd type being a combination of the two I guess).

So... with your help I have more types, using different words since apparently I wasn't clear.

1. My original 1.... where the wingmen are there to keep the wing leader alive longer so he gets to use his abilities longer/better without fear of easy death. The wing leader is the muscle, the wingmen are just wounds. So not many upgrades on them. They are there to be hull/shields for the wing leader, and the fact that they can shoot is a happy coincidence. [Also aligned with your #1]
2. My original 2.... where the wing leader is there to move around the wingmen, so they can do their thing. The wing leader is the placement, but the wingmen are the punch. So movement upgrades on wing leader, but not so much offensive ones, and then have offensive upgrades on wingmen. For example missiles etc. [sortof aligned with your #3]
3. Your #2. Ok, didn't think off this. Wing leader defensively / otherwise enhances the wing. But in terms of offense they are basically just as good as flying alone.
4. Simply flying similar ships together. Beyond saving time I don't really see the need for doing this and probably won't fly wings like this. That being said, time saving is useful in epic scale games.

Obviously there is overlap here, and in fact I think the most effective wings will definitely be a combination of 1 and 2. This is where I think of Guri, Soontir, Kylo, Darth Vader etc. falls. They wing leader by himself is really a good but usually more fragile ship. Having the wingmen helps survivability (so type 1). But because of the far more than normal movement options the wingmen will also have a much better placement typically at higher initiative than they would normally have. (so type 2)

So... to sum up. I think a wing should have a purpose more than just flying together.

PS. I also don't think I said anything that people haven't figured out. I'm just "thinking aloud".

13 minutes ago, Bort said:

So... to sum up. I think a wing should have a purpose more than just flying together.

Large battles flow better with Wings. A large part of the concept of of the Wing is simply to speed up games.

There are concrete benefits besides just speeding them up, though. The first is to get better movement than just moving each ship individually. Even a generic T-65 can get a Boost or BR to get into a better position and still have his wing mates right next to him and into a position that they would not be able to be in on their own. It allows you to get through asteroid fields and a crowded table with many ships. Even if it didn't even allow you to move at a higher initiative (which it can) it still offers superior movement in the game.

The ability to spread damage fired at the Wing Leader should not be forgotten. It allows a player to spread damage out to ships as he sees fit. It allows ships to stay on the table longer than normal. That is highly important in games when Huge ships have replenishing Shields.

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:49 PM, Zazaa32 said:

If i would fly wing of Vulture Droids with Energy cell charges, they cant reload those after they use them right? If so, I feel like it would be better idea to fly generic ships and have wing leader with good pilot ability and maybe some upgrades that would help those.

Correct (unless you break up the wing for a turn, but that relies on the wing leader surviving!). You're better off with more 'conventional' missiles, or else treating the vultures' weapons as one-use (which isn't too bad, since stuff in epic tends to die fast)

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I know you mean Snap Wexley, but I just thought of something. What about a Wing where the front 3 ships have Snapshot? Anyone lands within R 1-2 of that front of the Wing and they are going to get shot up!!! You can turn something like a Wing of Tie Fighters into something a little more scary.

Massed snap shots can be surprisingly scary.

10 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Why not both? Two wings of 3 T-70's each. I know, most games won't have points for that, but I'm in a similar spot with TIE strikers: Duchess' maneuverability options are crazy because she can turn off Ailerons, but Pure Sabacc really likes to shunt damage away by being wing leader. So I've pretty much decided on two wings of 3 TIE strikers so that I get the advantages for both wing leaders (and I get to use all six of my TIE striker models).

It's a very good call. Plus, you can buy Sabacc and Duchess afterburners and, again, amp up their manoeuvrability for a surprisingly reasonable cost. To add extra fun, a wing of 3 forms and maintains a perfect line abreast - meaning if you were to happen to equip all three TIE/sk in a wing with proximity mines......

6 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I know you mean Snap Wexley, but I just thought of something. What about a Wing where the front 3 ships have Snapshot? Anyone lands within R 1-2 of that front of the Wing and they are going to get shot up!!! You can turn something like a Wing of Tie Fighters into something a little more scary.

That... is a lot of points to invest in TIE Fighters and unmodded two dice attacks. Oddly, it might be most effective against huges, which are 0 agility and have large footprints and predictable positioning. Maybe Gideon and Scourge for extra dice on your snaps? Not sure who my wing leader would be-- maybe an Agent of the Empire V1 with Foresight.

28 minutes ago, ChahDresh said:

That... is a lot of points to invest in TIE Fighters and unmodded two dice attacks.

101 pts for three Black Squadrons with Snapshot. Not so bad. Also, its not like the only thing the Wing does is use Snapshot.

On 12/4/2019 at 1:31 PM, heychadwick said:

101 pts for three Black Squadrons with Snapshot. Not so bad. Also, its not like the only thing the Wing does is use Snapshot.

+4 for Gideon, +6 for Scourge, +6 for Mauler. Because last I checked, extra dice wasnt modification.

7 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

+4 for Gideon, +6 for Scourge, +6 for Mauler. Because last I checked, extra dice wasnt modification.

Correct. Rolling more or less dice isn't considered a dice modification by the rules. Adding results is though.

18 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

+4 for Gideon, +6 for Scourge, +6 for Mauler. Because last I checked, extra dice wasnt modification.

I like where your head's at, and I mentioned the first two myself, but... Mauler will never work with Snap Shot, since most ships can't use Range 2 attacks at Range 1, where Mauler's bonus applies.

works with pure sabacc too