7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I've mostly given up trying to understand the text of FFGs rulings, and am mostly trying to get at the big picture of where they're going. Letter for letter, the rulings don't actually make much sense.

I feel like the general thrust of FFG Clarifications (and new Errata!) Is toward greater restriction. Half of the new Errata from the update adds more specific timing, that was not originally written, to the card in question as does the Han dice mod ruling and these maneuver difficulty rulings.

With that thought in my head it's still next to impossible to predict a ruling because they're explicitly adding things that I feel would be better to just be Errata'd in.

An alternate perspective:

The Activation phase is as follows:

1 Reveal Dial
2 Execute Maneuver
3 Perform ActionSince his ability only references Execute Maneuver I could see the argument that BB8 triggers at the start of step 2 in Activation.

Within step 2 Leia's effect is applied. From the FAQ, it states that Leia applies during the Execute Maneuver step.

"Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew]) apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver."

And BB-8 is: Before you execute a blue maneuver, so is there a step to trigger BB-8 during the Execute Maneuver Step before you actually execute the maneuver?

10 hours ago, Korrova said:

An alternate perspective:

The Activation phase is as follows:

1 Reveal Dial
2 Execute Maneuver
3 Perform ActionSince his ability only references Execute Maneuver I could see the argument that BB8 triggers at the start of step 2 in Activation.

Within step 2 Leia's effect is applied. From the FAQ, it states that Leia applies during the Execute Maneuver step.

"Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew]) apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver."

And BB-8 is: Before you execute a blue maneuver, so is there a step to trigger BB-8 during the Execute Maneuver Step before you actually execute the maneuver?

you're saying "before" is "during"? that's like saying "after" is also "during". i would consider "at the start" of and "at the end of" as during or while, but not "before" or "after"

On 3/4/2020 at 2:12 PM, Rn_ReFlux said:

In my opinion there does need to be an interpretation....

Where exactly DOES BB-8's ability activate? My thought process would be that he activated during the execute maneuver phase. The only other valid option would be the reveal dial phase. So if you enter the execute phase, then BB-8 activates, then Leia would very much affect his ability.

BB-8 activates before (written on the card), not during. Before is not the same as during.

The exact phrasing in the errata is

... apply only
during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that
ship executes a maneuver.”

BB-8 triggers “before.” Is before the same as during? Is before the same as after? Lol.

4 hours ago, Rettere said:

The exact phrasing in the errata { FAQ } is

... apply only
during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that
ship executes a maneuver.”

BB-8 triggers “before.” Is before the same as during? Is before the same as after? Lol.

Point of order: that quote is from the FAQ section.

On topic, I agree that the explicit inclusion of 'effects that trigger after' in that FAQ answer illustrates that After does not overlap with During. By extension the mirrored definition would also make Before exclusive from During .

I'm saying that Leia applies during the entirety of the Execute Maneuver Step, and that the step encompasses more than just executing the maneuver.

• Execute Maneuver : The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.
  • A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:
    • 1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching template.
      • a. Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply.
      • b. Set the template between the ship’s front guides (so that it is flush against the base).
      • c. Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.
      • d. Return the template to the supply.
    • 2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token and one strain token and one deplete token.

BB-8 triggers just before executing the maneuver, which is during the Execute Maneuver Step, after the dial is revealed, but before the maneuver is executed.

7 minutes ago, Korrova said:

I'm saying that Leia applies during the entirety of the Execute Maneuver Step, and that the step encompasses more than just executing the maneuver.

• Execute Maneuver : The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.
  • A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:
    • 1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching template.
      • a. Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply.
      • b. Set the template between the ship’s front guides (so that it is flush against the base).
      • c. Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.
      • d. Return the template to the supply.
    • 2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token and one strain token and one deplete token.

BB-8 triggers just before executing the maneuver, which is during the Execute Maneuver Step, after the dial is revealed, but before the maneuver is executed.

LOL now I've seen everything on these forums. "Before X" = "During X".

One references the entire Execute Maneuver Step , and the other references the act of executing the maneuver. Isn't it possible that executing the maneuver is something that happens inside of the Execute Maneuver Step ?

5 minutes ago, Korrova said:

One references the entire Execute Maneuver Step , and the other references the act of executing the maneuver. Isn't it possible that executing the maneuver is something that happens inside of the Execute Maneuver Step ?

That is exactly what I was saying.

uh... wow. So people are really doubling down on the argument that “before you execute a maneuver” happens “during the execute maneuver step”.

I feel like there’s not much more room for rational discussion at this point, other than to point out that for most people, “before X,” “during X,” and “after X” are all mutually exclusive conditions. And two of these conditions are listed in the FAQ entry regarding Leia. And the other one of these conditions is on BB-8. 🤔

1 hour ago, Korrova said:

One references the entire Execute Maneuver Step , and the other references the act of executing the maneuver. Isn't it possible that executing the maneuver is something that happens inside of the Execute Maneuver Step ?

First of all: the sub-step inside Execute Maneuver that you are referring to (Maneuver Ship) does not have the word 'execute' in either its title or description so it would be inserting a keyword where there is none to refer to that as 'executing a maneuver'.

Furthermore: you're missing the massive precedent component of the counter argument. Presently all 'after executing a maneuver' type triggers are activated after the entire maneuver sequence, most importantly activating after the Check Difficulty step. This is unfortunately a community consensus ruling that has not been officially spelled out in the FAQ section, but it is taken from context clues in the overall structure of ability templates and the rules as a whole*; as well as being aimed at reducing the power level of certain abilities. Consider how much more powerful abilities like Jedi's Fine Tuned Controls and Nantex Pinpoint Array would be if they could be used before the Check Difficulty step, or if SLAM-ing a red maneuver did not include the 'Check Difficulty' step!

*Those rules primarily being the Maneuver section of the RR(1.1.0) p13 where it specifies that you ' Execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps' which community consensus has interpreted to mean that 'Execute Maneuver' based triggers refer to that entire process outlined.

TL,DR: the sub-step is called 'maneuver ship' while the whole process is prefaced as: 'how to Execute a Maneuver'

7 hours ago, Korrova said:

I'm saying that Leia applies during the entirety of the Execute Maneuver Step, and that the step encompasses more than just executing the maneuver.

• Execute Maneuver : The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.
  • A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:
    • 1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching template.
      • a. Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply.
      • b. Set the template between the ship’s front guides (so that it is flush against the base).
      • c. Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.
      • d. Return the template to the supply.
    • 2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token and one strain token and one deplete token.

BB-8 triggers just before executing the maneuver, which is during the Execute Maneuver Step, after the dial is revealed, but before the maneuver is executed.

no, BB-8 triggers before executing a maneuver, not during or while executing a maneuver. it's an interpretation that's pretty well supported by the rules.

please convince me otherwise. because executing a maneuver is a very well defined timing in the rules. it's a step during activation. before that is not while it's happening, sorry.

dials are not revealed during the execute maneuver step, no. they are just referenced during the execute maneuver step.

16 hours ago, Korrova said:

BB-8 triggers just before executing the maneuver, which is during the Execute Maneuver Step

It is not. It is during Reveal Dial step of the Activation Phase which happens before the Execute Maneuver step. So revealing a dial cannot be during the Execute Maneuver step.

Honestly, it's going to be up to the TO and Head Judge. I announced a week in advance of my Store Champs that Leia and BB8 will not combo.

I will be going to a Store Champs next weekend where the TO and Head Judge are saying Yes, they will rule in favor of the combo working.

SO as long as it is announced in advance there should be no issue. But I fully agree. This should not work. Again that is just my perspective.

On 3/13/2020 at 3:54 AM, Croste said:

I will be going to a Store Champs next weekend where the TO and Head Judge are saying Yes, they will rule in favor of the combo working.

Kinda sucks you'll be going to an event where the head judge makes poor rulings then.

Do we really need to (again) break out the dictionary on this?

Quote

Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.
Preceding : coming before something in order, position, or time.

If it BB-8 happened during, it would say "During" or "While".

There is a specific timing statement that is a mix of both "Before" and While/During". Its called "At the start of.." which means it happens at the very top of that timing window *while inside* that timing window.

BB-8 and Leia do not combo. Any TO or Judge who says otherwise is incorrect.

It came up again, and I looked at it from a different perspective. One argument I've see is that BB-8 can't look into the future, so to speak.

Reveal Dial is before Execute Maneuver (see image from @meffo below) . The order, as far as I understand it, is:

1. Leia: "After a friendly ship reveals its dial..."
2. BB-8: "Before you execute a blue maneuver..."

So when the game gets to BB-8, the game already knows whether or not Leia is going to happen. In my opinion, that refutes the entire BB8 doesn't know about the future argument. Even though Leia is not yet applied, BB-8 and the game know that she will be applied and that the maneuver will be blue. It is already committed.

That does not mean that the interaction is legal by RAW. How would the rules have to be rewritten to allow it? It feels like this opens up an approach, and I haven't seen that argument yet.

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It came up again, and I looked at it from a different perspective. One argument I've see is that BB-8 can't look into the future, so to speak.

Reveal Dial is before Execute Maneuver (see image from @meffo below) . The order, as far as I understand it, is:

1. Leia: "After a friendly ship reveals its dial..."
2. BB-8: "Before you execute a blue maneuver..."

So when the game gets to BB-8, the game already knows whether or not Leia is going to happen. In my opinion, that refutes the entire BB8 doesn't know about the future argument. Even though Leia is not yet applied, BB-8 and the game know that she will be applied and that the maneuver will be blue. It is already committed.

That does not mean that the interaction is legal by RAW. How would the rules have to be rewritten to allow it? It feels like this opens up an approach, and I haven't seen that argument yet.

it's much more simple than that.

or in other words, it's already been clarified. the change of difficulty is only applied during and after the execute maneuver step. therefore, it is not applied when BB-8 triggers. in fact, it's not even applied when leia triggers, but after that.

6 minutes ago, meffo said:

it's much more simple than that.

or in other words, it's already been clarified. the change of difficulty is only applied during and after the execute maneuver step. therefore, it is not applied when BB-8 triggers. in fact, it's not even applied when leia triggers, but after that.

Yes, I understand that. How can it be allowed though? An option would be to apply Leia as soon as she's triggered, but I have no clue how to write that in xwing-legalese. What are good/simple ways to make the interaction work?

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, I understand that. How can it be allowed though? An option would be to apply Leia as soon as she's triggered, but I have no clue how to write that in xwing-legalese. What are good/simple ways to make the interaction work?

You mean if FFG wanted to allow it to work? You really cant. The way they have ruled and worded things means you can only check the altered maneuver difficulty after its been executed as it only applies during the Maneuver Ship sub step of the Execute maneuver step while its going though those steps. Any wording that would allow BB-8 to work would just make his ability far more confusing and raise alot more questions.

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, I understand that. How can it be allowed though? An option would be to apply Leia as soon as she's triggered, but I have no clue how to write that in xwing-legalese. What are good/simple ways to make the interaction work?

De-FAQ the ruling, I suppose? Or if they had written "After a friendly ship reveals its dial, you may spend 1 Force Charge . If you do, before the chosen ship would execute the maneuver, it may reduce the difficulty of that maneuver.

37 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It came up again, and I looked at it from a different perspective. One argument I've see is that BB-8 can't look into the future, so to speak.

Reveal Dial is before Execute Maneuver (see image from @meffo below) . The order, as far as I understand it, is:

1. Leia: "After a friendly ship reveals its dial..."
2. BB-8: "Before you execute a blue maneuver..."

So when the game gets to BB-8, the game already knows whether or not Leia is going to happen. In my opinion, that refutes the entire BB8 doesn't know about the future argument. Even though Leia is not yet applied, BB-8 and the game know that she will be applied and that the maneuver will be blue. It is already committed.

That does not mean that the interaction is legal by RAW. How would the rules have to be rewritten to allow it? It feels like this opens up an approach, and I haven't seen that argument yet.

Don't get me wrong: I think this makes *FAR* more sense than FFG's rulings.

FFGs rulings on maneuver difficulty are their most asinine to date.

2 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

De-FAQ the ruling, I suppose? Or if they had written "After a friendly ship reveals its dial, you may spend 1 Force Charge . If you do, before the chosen ship would execute the maneuver, it may reduce the difficulty of that maneuver.

Yes I was thinking in that direction. There is only a contradiction because of the RR entry, after all. So it should be fixable by changing that again, right?

the fix is to rewrite the FAQ to include abilities that trigger before you would execute a blue maneuver

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, I understand that. How can it be allowed though? An option would be to apply Leia as soon as she's triggered, but I have no clue how to write that in xwing-legalese. What are good/simple ways to make the interaction work?

i don't like this question, because it seems like it's bordering on the kind of rules lawyering i detest the most, as in someone wanting the rules to work to their advantage, but never against them.

that being said, it can be made to work in a lot of different ways that seem obvious. they are not very simple, though. errata of BB-8, errata of leia or a complete change to which timings difficulty is changed, as in changing the FAQ. changing the FAQ could have a lot of consequences in regards to other cards, though.

also, i will apologize. i know this post has a pretty aggressive tone (at least the first paragraph). i assure you, i mean no ill will what so ever.

bb-8 reads:
Before you execute a blue maneuver, you may spend 1 to perform a or action.

and could read:
Before you execute a maneuver that will be blue while executing it, you may spend 1 to perform a or action.


that would work, even if it wouldn't be very elegant at all.