If I use Leia’s ability on Poe, who revealed a 3 hard turn (normally white), can I trigger BB-8 to do a barrel roll before my maneuver?

1 hour ago, Rettere said:

If I use Leia’s ability on Poe, who revealed a 3 hard turn (normally white), can I trigger BB-8 to do a barrel roll before my maneuver?

not clear, since BB-8 is weird. the difficulty is only changed during the execute maneuver step, so it should be a no. how ever, what does BB-8 check for and when? he should be checking for what the difficulty will be when the maneuver is executed, right? in that case it's a yes.

i'm going with the more restrictive interpretation, though. the maneuver isn't blue until you're executing it.

16 hours ago, meffo said:

i'm going with the more restrictive interpretation, though. the maneuver isn't blue until you're executing it.

This is how i understand it to work as well.

BB-8 should probably have different wording, saying something like "After you reveal a blue maneuver..." instead.

Here's the relevant passage from the ruling linked by @meffo : "[examples] constant effects that alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as [examples] apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver."

The fact that "before" was excluded from the associated effects is what I would use to say no to BB-8 + Leia. (Unless I'm forgetting some precedence that indicates "before" triggers should be included in the associated event)

Three out of three rules lawyers who often disagree with each other sounds like a consensus to me! 😜

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

This is how i understand it to work as well.

BB-8 should probably have different wording, saying something like "After you reveal a blue maneuver..." instead.

Point of order: I'm pretty sure "before you execute a maneuver" is after you reveal your dial since the a ship activates, per the rules for activation RR(1.0.6.1) p.3, in the order of: 1-Reveal dial, 2-Execute Maneuver, 3-Perform Action.

I wish they had specifically included "...effects that trigger before or after..." In the ruling, or specifically excluded effects that trigger before with a parenthesis reminder at the end of the paragraph I quoted above. 😑

On a tangential note: is the Hera example useful at all to this clarification? I looked for additional clues there but remembered that Hera & Seasoned Navigator both use "After you reveal..." timing. As such, they are clearly completely outside the Execute Maneuver step of activation and therefore the maneuvers available to them are unaffected by "constant effects".

18 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Point of order: I'm pretty sure "before you execute a maneuver" is after you reveal your dial

Yes, but they are not the same trigger. By this wording, a ship with BB-8 and Advanced Sensors cannot use both in the same turn, as given the wording, AS triggers before BB-8. Maybe thats why hes worded like that, so you cant get two actions during an advance sensor turn.

27 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Yes, but they are not the same trigger. By this wording, a ship with BB-8 and Advanced Sensors cannot use both in the same turn, as given the wording, AS triggers before BB-8. Maybe thats why hes worded like that, so you cant get two actions during an advance sensor turn.

My point was that changing BB-8 from "before you execute" to "after you reveal" would have no impact on the interaction with constant effect color changes of the maneuver. I think your speculation is correct though that BB-8 is specifically worded to prevent an interaction with Advanced Sensors (and Seasoned Navigator for that matter.)

So just to be clear BB8 and Leia don’t work together? (See nitrobenz quote from RRG that before effects are not included).

I think that's where folks are leaning.

My sense is that maneuver-adjusting effects are only applied at the exact time of executing the maneuver. BB variants, looking for someone about to execute a blue maneuver, only see someone about to execute a white maneuver. However, something like Korr Sella works fine, since that's an after-the-fact effect, and if you did actually execute a blue maneuver, it doesn't matter to her what was on your dial.

The reason it came up again: recent flybetter podcast has them discuss a guest's list where they agree it works - whatever that is or isn't worth.

The initial glance says it should - Leia changes the difficulty, and BB8 cares about the difficulty of the executed maneuver, unlike Cova + R4 or +Leia, which considers the revealed maneuver on the dial. Interesting that you all disagree.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason it came up again: recent flybetter podcast has them discuss a guest's list where they agree it works - whatever that is or isn't worth.

The initial glance says it should - Leia changes the difficulty, and BB8 cares about the difficulty of the executed maneuver, unlike Cova + R4 or +Leia, which considers the revealed maneuver on the dial. Interesting that you all disagree.

Per the FAQ Leia, just like R4 Astromech, is not applied till the maneuver is being executed. A maneuver that Leia would turn blue is still white when BB-8 checks.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Per the FAQ Leia, just like R4 Astromech, is not applied till the maneuver is being executed. A maneuver the Leia would turn blue is still white when BB-8 checks.

You mean the entry quoted above?

I've stopped caring about all those interactions tbh

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You mean the entry quoted above?

I've stopped caring about all those interactions tbh

Those are the rules, like them or not.

It is also on Page 33 of the current Rules Reference:

Q: How do abilities that alter the speed, difficulty, and/or
bearing of a maneuver that a ship reveals during its Reveal
Dial step and executes during its Execute Maneuver step
resolve? For example, if Hera Syndulla [Attack Shuttle]
is equipped with R4 Astromech and Seasoned Navigator,
and also has the Damaged Engine Damage Card, what
happens?

A: R4 Astromech and Damaged Engine (and other constant effects that
alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as Nien Nunb [Crew], L3-37's
Programming, and Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew ]) apply only
during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that
ship executes a maneuver.
So, after Hera's dial is revealed, Hera's player may add Hera's pilot ability
and Seasoned Navigator's ability to the ability queue in either order.
Both abilities resolve, and if Seasoned Navigator's ability is resolved, the
difficulty of the maneuver is increased during the Execute Maneuver step
(i.e. the difficulty has not yet been increased when Hera's pilot ability is
resolved).
Then, during the Execute Maneuver step, all abilities that alter the difficulty
of the maneuver are cumulative as normal.
Note that abilities that alter a maneuver without causing the ship to select
a new maneuver on its dial do not affect the ship's "revealed maneuver" as
referenced by abilities such as Ric Olié's pilot ability.

38 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason it came up again: recent flybetter podcast has them discuss a guest's list where they agree it works - whatever that is or isn't worth.

The initial glance says it should - Leia changes the difficulty, and BB8 cares about the difficulty of the executed maneuver, unlike Cova + R4 or +Leia, which considers the revealed maneuver on the dial. Interesting that you all disagree.

... and a more in depth reading of the rules prior to the so called "clarification" would also indicate that constant abilities are constant. I was 100% in favor of anything that checks for maneuver difficulty at any time for any reason would be affected by the changes made from Leia, R4, et.al. but FFG has made a 'cuz we said so' ruling and it is in the official Rules Reference now.

31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You mean the entry quoted above?

I've stopped caring about all those interactions tbh

I too take all 'Official Rulings' posts with a grain of salt, but as @Hiemfire said just above me: the 'constant effects are not always on' clarification is in the Rules Reference proper now so it's not just a guideline, it's actually a rule.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason it came up again: recent flybetter podcast has them discuss a guest's list where they agree it works - whatever that is or isn't worth.

The initial glance says it should - Leia changes the difficulty, and BB8 cares about the difficulty of the executed maneuver, unlike Cova + R4 or +Leia, which considers the revealed maneuver on the dial. Interesting that you all disagree.

This interpretation would make a ton of sense and is indeed the way I WISH it worked... but the RRG is explicit that Leia only applies during, and for effects that trigger after the maneuver, not before. So when BB-8 checks, it is still white.

Does it make sense that it works for effects after the maneuver and not before? No. But those are the rules.

4 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

... and a more in depth reading of the rules prior to the so called "clarification" would also indicate that constant abilities are constant. I was 100% in favor of anything that checks for maneuver difficulty at any time for any reason would be affected by the changes made from Leia, R4, et.al. but FFG has made a 'cuz we said so' ruling and it is in the official Rules Reference now.

I too take all 'Official Rulings' posts with a grain of salt, but as @Hiemfire said just above me: the 'constant effects are not always on' clarification is in the Rules Reference proper now so it's not just a guideline, it's actually a rule.

I mean, i *get* what FFG was trying to go for here. They just didnt rule it in the best of ways. What they really should have done (but they dont like to) is Errata the cards like R4 to read something like ...

"While executing a maneuver, decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers"

"constant effects" in this case being, effects that do not have a cost to activate. So by contrast, R4-P does something very similar, but is Not a constant effect, because there is a cost to 'turn it on'.

I believe that is what FFG is getting at here.

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

"constant effects" in this case being, effects that do not have a cost to activate. So by contrast, R4-P does something very similar, but is Not a constant effect, because there is a cost to 'turn it on'.

I'd go so far as to say you don't need a cost or even a trigger, they just need to add a specified timing. If they go a little farther with Errata I'm hoping they revisit 'constant' effects like Leia, R4 Astro, et.al. just to add "while executing a maneuver" to the front or back of the maneuver adjustment phrase.

18 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason it came up again: recent flybetter podcast has them discuss a guest's list where they agree it works - whatever that is or isn't worth.

The initial glance says it should - Leia changes the difficulty, and BB8 cares about the difficulty of the executed maneuver, unlike Cova + R4 or +Leia, which considers the revealed maneuver on the dial. Interesting that you all disagree.

It's less that I firmly disagree, but more that I'm not willing to put in the effort to fight it. If there was a broader consensus the other way, that Leia + BB worked, I wouldn't have any issues with that at all.

As to podcasters in general being rules experts, didn't the "jammer doesn't get to pick which green token" get started by podcasters of some stripe or another? Seems like that was ruled-wrong for a while because of that.

18 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You mean the entry quoted above?

I've stopped caring about all those interactions tbh

I've generally felt most of them have removed rather than added clarity. Between ignoring obstacles meaning that you'll ignoring obstacles in some ways but not others, the hairsplitting on what are or are not requirements, and the labyrinth of the maneuver-difficulty rules, it's just a mess.

I've mostly given up trying to understand the text of FFGs rulings, and am mostly trying to get at the big picture of where they're going. Letter for letter, the rulings don't actually make much sense.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's less that I firmly disagree, but more that I'm not willing to put in the effort to fight it. If there was a broader consensus the other way, that Leia + BB worked, I wouldn't have any issues with that at all.

As to podcasters in general being rules experts, didn't the "jammer doesn't get to pick which green token" get started by podcasters of some stripe or another? Seems like that was ruled-wrong for a while because of that.

I've generally felt most of them have removed rather than added clarity. Between ignoring obstacles meaning that you'll ignoring obstacles in some ways but not others, the hairsplitting on what are or are not requirements, and the labyrinth of the maneuver-difficulty rules, it's just a mess.

I've mostly given up trying to understand the text of FFGs rulings, and am mostly trying to get at the big picture of where they're going. Letter for letter, the rulings don't actually make much sense.

Yeah, I'm in a very similar position. Just tell me how we're going to play it and I will accept it. If there's an FFG ruling then I try to know it, and otherwise... do whatever you want man.

I mean, in this case the podcaster in question does judge a lot and has been/will be a marshal for several larger events so it's not unreasonable to listen to how they rule things. It does seem that they and the other judges who tend to marshal/judge bigger events are all talking together in an attempt to do their best job of translating the rules. One other thing they do is before larger events is they do try to drop a document on how certain things will be ruled. These aren't always correct once ffg chimes in, however getting the information of how it will be ruled out is important.

There's been times where they make a ruling, then hear from FFG that it's not correct and change it, even without it coming from the official rules forum post. One example is chopper crew. His card as written pretty clearly is meant to just allow you perform an action while stressed, however the way it's written he gives a second action during the perform action step that can always be performed. FFG has told the marshals of these events that it's not that way and only allows a stressed ship to perform actions.

45 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's less that I firmly disagree, but more that I'm not willing to put in the effort to fight it. If there was a broader consensus the other way, that Leia + BB worked, I wouldn't have any issues with that at all.

As to podcasters in general being rules experts, didn't the "jammer doesn't get to pick which green token" get started by podcasters of some stripe or another? Seems like that was ruled-wrong for a while because of that.

I've generally felt most of them have removed rather than added clarity. Between ignoring obstacles meaning that you'll ignoring obstacles in some ways but not others, the hairsplitting on what are or are not requirements, and the labyrinth of the maneuver-difficulty rules, it's just a mess.

I've mostly given up trying to understand the text of FFGs rulings, and am mostly trying to get at the big picture of where they're going. Letter for letter, the rulings don't actually make much sense.

To be honest, i know i was in the camp of that Jam ruling, because of how it was worded in the rules reference.

When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks.

Its kind of poorly worded, and as such, i took it to mean "Player 1 (causing the effect) says "Remove one of your green tokens". The wording isn't clear that Player 1 got to choose *which* one of those green tokens, merely "one of its green tokens".

What they probably should have written was...

When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses a green token to remove, or a lock to break.

This feels more clear to me that the player has full control of what gets removed.

Also, I've almost always tried to rule in the direction of where i believe FFG is going, and not hanging off every strict wording, period, comma, ect.. Trying to play by the strict letter of the rules would be a mess.

Delete this double post.

15 minutes ago, SirToastsalot said:

I mean, in this case the podcaster in question does judge a lot and has been/will be a marshal for several larger events so it's not unreasonable to listen to how they rule things. It does seem that they and the other judges who tend to marshal/judge bigger events are all talking together in an attempt to do their best job of translating the rules. One other thing they do is before larger events is they do try to drop a document on how certain things will be ruled. These aren't always correct once ffg chimes in, however getting the information of how it will be ruled out is important.

There's been times where they make a ruling, then hear from FFG that it's not correct and change it, even without it coming from the official rules forum post. One example is chopper crew. His card as written pretty clearly is meant to just allow you perform an action while stressed, however the way it's written he gives a second action during the perform action step that can always be performed. FFG has told the marshals of these events that it's not that way and only allows a stressed ship to perform actions.

And thats the thing. When judges make a ruling at an event, one that is in question, that ruling should only ever be applied to *that* event, and never applied for the entire game everywhere specifically because they can be (and have been) wrong in their rulings. This is why anytime someone has a question about the way something works, and it isnt strictly in the rules, that we always say "ask your TO or Judge before the event".

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

And thats the thing. When judges make a ruling at an event, one that is in question, that ruling should only ever be applied to *that* event, and never applied for the entire game everywhere specifically because they can be (and have been) wrong in their rulings. This is why anytime someone has a question about the way something works, and it isnt strictly in the rules, that we always say "ask your TO or Judge before the event".

This is correct in general, but for this specific case, the interaction of Leia with effects that trigger on a maneuver IS “strictly in the rules” on page 33 of the RRG, and it is clear that effects that trigger before a maneuver are not included:

A: R4 Astromech and Damaged Engine (and other constant effects that
alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as Nien Nunb [Crew], L3-37's
Programming, and Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew ]) apply only
during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that
ship executes a maneuver.

There’s not even really any interpretation to do here - the Leia card is mentioned specifically, the word “only” is used, and BB-8 does not occur during the execute maneuver step, and does not trigger after executing a maneuver.

3 hours ago, Rettere said:

This is correct in general, but for this specific case, the interaction of Leia with effects that trigger on a maneuver IS “strictly in the rules” on page 33 of the RRG, and it is clear that effects that trigger before a maneuver are not included:

A: R4 Astromech and Damaged Engine (and other constant effects that
alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as Nien Nunb [Crew], L3-37's
Programming, and Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew ]) apply only
during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that
ship executes a maneuver.

There’s not even really any interpretation to do here - the Leia card is mentioned specifically, the word “only” is used, and BB-8 does not occur during the execute maneuver step, and does not trigger after executing a maneuver.

In my opinion there does need to be an interpretation....

Where exactly DOES BB-8's ability activate? My thought process would be that he activated during the execute maneuver phase. The only other valid option would be the reveal dial phase. So if you enter the execute phase, then BB-8 activates, then Leia would very much affect his ability.