On 10/31/2019 at 1:44 AM, Mon no Oni said:

I'm curious about the line mentioning why there is no longer a Jade Champion. Was there any particular reason why this happened in O5R? I remember something about Phoenix not being happy about it, as they felt that particular role fell in their purview and, I suppose, politically pressing against it, but no single, particular event being the cause of the office being abandoned, as this line suggest.

In O5R Jade Champion was removed for centuries, and during Scorpion Clan Coup and part of the Clan War it still remained vacant. It was later reintroduced by a Shadow-possesed Toturi, and it was won by Kitsu Okura, the best Jade Champion ever ;). He was smart enought to summon Okura no Oni and spread the taint among his kin. Shameful.

I'm wondering why Toturi didn't consider Daisetsu as a possible culprit:

• He did not know about the edict.
• His poor relationship with his brother is supposedly well-known.
• He secured poorly-understood supernatural assets via Shahai.
• His connection with Dairu and thus the Scorpion Clan might be known.
• On the night the Emperor (and the Emerald Champion) dies he and Shahai conveniently go missing, compromising Sotorii for doing a coup.
• Against Sotorii he can potentially rise the Unicorn and the Scorpion while Sotorii would only have the Lion at best and maybe the Phoenix.
• At this point he won't learn about the edict and how he outplayed himself for some time.
• Even if Daisetsu knew about the edict, this play would be a zero-loss gamble for him to finish off Sotorii for good.

59 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm wondering why Toturi didn't consider Daisetsu as a possible culprit

For the same reason that Toturi almost immediately dismisses Sotorii, even knowing the sort of person he is: A Hantei prince murdering his father is nearly inconceivable. The mind rebels at even considering the possibility.

Also, why wouldn't he know about the edict? It would be reasonable to assume that Jodan told his sons about his plan. That's part of what leads Toturi to think that Shahai is innocent; the idea that someone might have made a play at Daisetsu, and she's protecting him.

So, thinking about the possibility of redemption for Sotorii caused me this thought: is it possible that Sotorii -didn't- actually kill his father? We all think he did, and he absolutely believes he did, but my memory is that he blacked out. At least in theory, maybe he didn't actually do it? By all means correct me if I'm wrong.

26 minutes ago, MirumotoKatsuro said:

So, thinking about the possibility of redemption for Sotorii caused me this thought: is it possible that Sotorii -didn't- actually kill his father? We all think he did, and he absolutely believes he did, but my memory is that he blacked out. At least in theory, maybe he didn't actually do it? By all means correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right, we've only got Sotorii's first person perspective of the events immediately before and -after Jodan dies.

Quote

His father was speaking. Something about family. Something about courage. He couldn’t hear. Not clearly.

But you can’t.

“…more to being a leader than just…”

It’s not fair.

“…but he will look to you for…”

I was first.

“…he needs you more than…”

Father, you…

He rose. He grasped Kunshu by the handle. Pulled it free.

You are the one unfit to rule!

***

Sotorii heard only his own gasps. How had he gotten here, at the center of the room? Kunshu, unsheathed in his hands, was dripping on the tatami. There was red spattered everywhere: across the floor, across the velvet cushions and the broken table, mere inches from the Lion Clan sword. Coating Kunshu’s blade. And his father, lying face down among the destruction.

No.

No!

The sword dropped from his limp fingers, clattering upon the mats. He fell to his father’s side, heart racing. He couldn’t feel a heartbeat. Just wetness.

His hands were so bloody.

You killed him.

So it is possible that something else killed him, although I have no idea what.

14 hours ago, Oni no Pikachu said:

In O5R Jade Champion was removed for centuries, and during Scorpion Clan Coup and part of the Clan War it still remained vacant. It was later reintroduced by a Shadow-possesed Toturi, and it was won by Kitsu Okura, the best Jade Champion ever ;). He was smart enought to summon Okura no Oni and spread the taint among his kin. Shameful.

I do remember that. Why I was asking if there was any given cause to the fall in disuse of the office during this era on the O5R, as this story suggest there was some kind of fiasco; at least in the current continuity.

On 10/31/2019 at 1:49 AM, Schmoozies said:

It was basically Phoenix complaining. O5R the reason for the Jade Champion being retired was the Phoenix discovering a Bloodspeaker cult operating in Scorpion lands right under the nose of the Jade Champion who was a Yogo at the time.

Thanks! This is was I was looking for. By default I'm ging to asume this is the same event in both O5R/N5R. Do you have a link?

12 hours ago, MirumotoKatsuro said:

So, thinking about the possibility of redemption for Sotorii caused me this thought: is it possible that Sotorii -didn't- actually kill his father? We all think he did, and he absolutely believes he did, but my memory is that he blacked out. At least in theory, maybe he didn't actually do it? By all means correct me if I'm wrong.

Considering the way the scene is structured I would say it is unlikely.

8 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

Thanks! This is was I was looking for. By default I'm ging to asume this is the same event in both O5R/N5R. Do you have a link?

This is the history of the role from the old lore.

https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Jade_Champion

On 11/2/2019 at 4:08 AM, AtoMaki said:

Considering the way the scene is structured I would say it is unlikely.

I agree, but unlikely is different from impossible.

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:33 PM, Mangod said:

You're right, we've only got Sotorii's first person perspective of the events immediately before and -after Jodan dies.

So it is possible that something else killed him, although I have no idea what.

Well - I suspect if it was, we're talking " something what got into the palace and subsequently got into Sotorii "; that is, there's something driving his rages and there's a reason he lost it to the extent he did.

There's that whole Smokeless Fire vision Isawa Atsuko had, of something shadowy, dangerous and bloody trying to reach the palace, and Kaede saw a djinn inside the winged ruby talisman in the parade. Remember the Rising Wave prophecy Togashi Yokuni (and presumably Mitsu) are working to is that the capital is supposed to be trashed so "something is revealed".

With the inner palace's spiritual defences shut down by Iuchi Shahai (intentionally or not) you could imagine something taking advantage.

If this is the case, though - is it following one of the princes, or is it still there in the palace with Shoju?

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Well - I suspect if it was, we're talking " something what got into the palace and subsequently got into Sotorii "; that is, there's something driving his rages and there's a reason he lost it to the extent he did.

There's that whole Smokeless Fire vision Isawa Atsuko had, of something shadowy, dangerous and bloody trying to reach the palace, and Kaede saw a djinn inside the winged ruby talisman in the parade. Remember the Rising Wave prophecy Togashi Yokuni (and presumably Mitsu) are working to is that the capital is supposed to be trashed so "something is revealed".

With the inner palace's spiritual defences shut down by Iuchi Shahai (intentionally or not) you could imagine something taking advantage.

If this is the case, though - is it following one of the princes, or is it still there in the palace with Shoju?

The flaw here is that Sotorii's blind rages predate Shahai's arrival. We saw the same thing during his duel with Dairu where he his inability to accept his lose almost lead to him striking Dairu and his own brother, potentially fatally.

All the road signs of a supernatural threat at the capital also predates Shahai's arrival. I doubt she's was the catalyst for any of this, though we are definitely lead to believe she could have made it worse. Without knowing more about the wards in place in the palace I guess it's possible how much influence this presence has waxes and wanes depending on where the princes are in the palace. Maybe they aren't always inside the influence of the wards, and with the arrival of Shahai we just get more vulnerabilities opening up. Particularly places where the emperor would be left in a more vulnerable situations.

I'd think bringing Kaede and Toturi back to the capital would definitely bring this to a head. Specifically because it brings Kaede back to the capital and she was always attached to this story thread.

I'm not convinced that confronting Tsuko would necessarily be the worst choice for Lion. As it stands now, Totori is in a position to potentially rally loyalists and split the Lion clan during a time when the Crane are at their most vulnerable. Were I writing the setting, splitting the lion is how I would make their military might less potent and prevent Tsuko from doing whatever she wants in Crane lands.

Tsuko and Totori have their reverence of Arasou in common. They disagree on what that should mean, but it's important common ground that could bring them, at least temporarily, together. A unified Lion during this kind of unrest, especially with the Crane facing internal strife already, could be extremely influential.

But for me personally, option 4 seems to be the least predictable, so that's kind of where I'm leaning.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

All the road signs of a supernatural threat at the capital also predates Shahai's arrival. I doubt she's was the catalyst for any of this, though we are definitely lead to believe she could have made it worse. Without knowing more about the wards in place in the palace I guess it's possible how much influence this presence has waxes and wanes depending on where the princes are in the palace. Maybe they aren't always inside the influence of the wards, and with the arrival of Shahai we just get more vulnerabilities opening up. Particularly places where the emperor would be left in a more vulnerable situations.

I'd think bringing Kaede and Toturi back to the capital would definitely bring this to a head. Specifically because it brings Kaede back to the capital and she was always attached to this story thread.

I still thing folks are reading to much into Sotorii's inner monologue, and frankly attributing all his failings to an outside force actually makes him a worse "villain" as now he's the victim rather than having any agency in the matter. Its personal opinion of course, but I much prefer that Sotorii's failings have all been of his own volition and instituted by his own weakness and need for recognition by his father and brother. Then the agency is all his as to whether he will work to redeem himself from his failings and actually endeavor to become a better person after he has hit rock bottom, or does he use this as his excuse to make his turn to full villain and lean hard into the "Empire" has betrayed him and now its time to watch it all burn.

I would agree except we are given enough evidence to back it up as a real possibility. Also if it is a supernatural influence that had a hand in shaping Sotorii's actions it just needs to get in line behind a long list of people who consider Sotorii either an obstacle to be overcome or a tool to be exploited. I guess there is a nuance to the question did he allow himself to be influenced by "it" or was he driven by "it" against his will. I prefer the former since I feel it allows agency for Sotorii as well as it allows for supernatural forces to be at work here.

Obscuring Sotorii's agency in the passage in question could simply convey his lack of control over his own behavior, rather than that the will of some other being had overcome his own. But there is a larger context to allow for speculation about him being possessed. My theory is, the suijindai is not a "historical" process but is due to the toxicity of supernatural evil.* I don't think that Sotorii is full-on possessed by Fu Leng (just yet) but rather that his lack of, shall we say, ethical introspection has left him vulnerable to corrupting influences.

*The Carpenter Wall is clearly not a 100% effective containment system of the radioactive evil of the Shadowlands.

What if this time around Fu-Leng split his soul, several ways, and bound them to various items that would get into the hands of prominent people...…………………...and oh crap that's Harry Potter.

I'm really hoping that Yokuni is actually holding the both Togashi and Fu-Leng Kami inside of him and has been containing their eternal struggle all these years.

But back to Sotorii, I'd prefer it if he was just the whiney twit he appears to be. That way he can go through a meaningful redemption arc, or just become the super-villain that everyone wants to hate.

23 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

But back to Sotorii, I'd prefer it if he was just the whiney twit he appears to be. That way he can go through a meaningful redemption arc, or just become the super-villain that everyone wants to hate.

This 100%. It makes for a mich richer story than supernatural influence

23 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

But back to Sotorii, I'd prefer it if he was just the whiney twit he appears to be.

The good thing about Sotorii is that he is actually not an insufferable person by nature but by circumstance. He is a dude with anger management issues who was literally raised to never act like a dude with anger management issues and it is tearing him apart in the inside. He is a Matsu raised by the Doji, living in a rolling nightmare of feeling one thing and being expected to act on the exact opposite of that feeling. When it gets the better out of him he breaks down since he can't just, say, declare himself the Lion Clan Champion and raze Kyuden Kakita to vent off his steam - and when it is too much he blows up like a bomb as Jodan had to experience it first-hand the hard way.

Personally, I would have loved to see Sotorii having an explosion of awesomeness instead of an explosion of DRAMA and ascend to a new plane of characterization, embracing the Renegade Lyfe and embarking on an adventure of self-exploration, gathering friends among fellow Renegades and embarrassing them with his awkwardness, and taking names by Hulking Out on his problems. Now this ship kinda sailed .

Uh most people don't murder their dad when they get angry. You can't explain away something that, in the context of this culture, is the worst imaginable crime, in fact so bad that it is generally unimaginable, by reference to anger management issues or being a spoiled brat or whatever.

Sotorii is either mentally ill or the victim of demonic influence (or both).

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

Sotorii is either mentally ill or the victim of demonic influence (or both).

There might be yet another cocoon somewhere nearby.

Again ...tears for Tazu. TT

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 6:17 PM, Manchu said:

I don't think that Sotorii is full-on possessed by Fu Leng (just yet) but rather that his lack of, shall we say, ethical introspection has left him vulnerable to corrupting influences.

This.

Just because Sotorii might have a devil on his shoulder whispering in his ear doesn't mean he's not a short-tempered little jerk with no real idea how other people's emotions work.

14 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The good thing about Sotorii is that he is actually not an insufferable person by nature but by circumstance. He is a dude with anger management issues who was literally raised to never act like a dude with anger management issues and it is tearing him apart in the inside.

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

Uh most people don't murder their dad when they get angry. You can't explain away something that, in the context of this culture, is the worst imaginable crime, in fact so bad that it is generally unimaginable, by reference to anger management issues or being a spoiled brat or whatever.

There is a difference between a 'reason' and an 'excuse'; Sotorii clearly has exactly the problems @AtoMaki describes. Though I would agree with @Manchu that he has them to the point that (today) we would regard as mental illness - blackouts and memory lapses associated with uncontrollable violent outbursts indicate something akin to psychosis or some forms of epilepsy.

Is that enough to cause him to act the way he did? (without outside influence)

We'll have to wait and see in the story.

Could it every be any kind of mitigating justification? Heck, no. Not ever, and he knows it (hence why he was planning to take his own life).

But that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a big part of the reason it happened.

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

Uh most people don't murder their dad when they get angry.

I'm fairly sure that this is actually the leading cause for sons to murder their dads IRL.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

There is a difference between a 'reason' and an 'excuse'; Sotorii clearly has exactly the problems @AtoMaki describes. Though I would agree with @Manchu that he has them to the point that (today) we would regard as mental illness - blackouts and memory lapses associated with uncontrollable violent outbursts indicate something akin to psychosis or some forms of epilepsy.

If I have to guess, it is high-functioning (or maybe atypical) autism.

26 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm fairly sure that this is actually the leading cause for sons to murder their dads IRL.

Dunno.

Technically it might well not be; hot-blooded rage tends to sway more towards the 'manslaughter' end of the spectrum than 'murder' (what Sotorii would probably be found guilty of if it wasn't, more importantly, regicide); murder per se requires a bit more forethought so whilst it's going to be big on anger more cold-blooded stuff like greed is likely to feature too.