As an example in the world, I know that an example of a pure-line human, the Venerable Cal, is into his third century. He isn't majoritorily (probably not a word ) meched out, he hasn't spent copious amounts of time in the Warp, cheating the clock, and he's not a psyker, that I know of, so he doesn't have the usual Eldar/Jedi excuse of "strange energies" maintaining him longer than average, other than the Emperor's, if you listen to him. While he is a withered ancient, and supported by his chair, he is still human, really old, and cognizant. money, resources, medical treatments, and yes, perhaps a bit of the Emperor's blessings have kept him alive, "active", and mentally capable, where other men or women would be drooling basket cases in a third of the time. How much longer will he live? I don't have a clue. If he runs out of R'as alGhul's lazarus pits, or the Imperium's equivalent rejuv treatments, he might finally succumb to old age, and it's deterioration.

I'm sort of surprised I'm getting into this part of the chat, but i do believe you do sort of have a clock, and when it chimes, you are done. You have cells, and they can only divide so many times, unless they become cancerous, which is a different issue. Once you run out of divides, you can't replace damaged tissue, blood cells, or what have you, and you die. You might not refer to that as "dying of old age", and several of the conditions caused likely have a nice, medical-sounding name, but we are mortal, and given enough time, we will just stop, whether the capacitors in our heart fizzle out, our blood becomes to thin to carry oxygen, our liver and kidneys fail to scrub that blood, or what have you. Not sure why the Eldar get to cheat, and live for millennia, but they were augmented/manufactured by hyper-intelligent lizard people, so I guess that's an out for them. They do make nice crystal trees, however.

Oldest in the galaxy: if considering only those of human origin, then Ahriman and Kharn are top of the list - both were born on Terra and joined the Legiones Astartes before the discovery of the Primarchs. Bjorn, who was still fairly young when the Heresy began, is likely a century or two younger.

Add in other species, and Eldrad Ulthran is possibly older - he was a Farseer during the Heresy, so he's unlikely to have been less than a few centuries old at that point. The only others older are things like Necrons, and they aren't alive...

Age of Space Marines: Fundamentally, the idea of 'dying of old age' is a flawed concept. Nobody actually dies of old age, but rather from conditions that result from protracted wear and tear upon the body. Astartes bodies are notably less susceptible to this wear than humans, but decades of battle will result in an accumulation of inefficient scar tissue, even with the efficient healing provided by their bodies. As time passes beyond the peak condition of the warrior, his physical condition will deteriorate very gradually - the warrior will become slightly slower, slightly weaker, slightly less robust. Sooner or later, that deterioration may cost him his life - not being puissant enough to avoid or survive a telling blow or fatal shot. Some warriors may choose to 'retire' from front line roles at this point - training scouts, command in reserve companies - while others may press on and endure in spite of their increasing frailty (frailty is relative here - even an elderly Space Marine is far stronger, faster, and tougher than an unaugmented human... but when you're facing mortal peril, the slightest difference can be all the difference between life and death). Blood Angels demonstrably age more slowly than even other Space Marines, but a sufficiently skilled, mighty and most importantly lucky Space Marine can keep going for a very long time...

Some of the Dark Eldar, notably Asdrubael Vect, are PRE FALL. In particular, Vect was actually about to be executed when the Fall happened, effectively saving his life. This makes him considerably older than the Imperium.

Some of the Dark Eldar, notably Asdrubael Vect, are PRE FALL. In particular, Vect was actually about to be executed when the Fall happened, effectively saving his life. This makes him considerably older than the Imperium.

We don't actually know this to be true anymore. The only source on that is Vect himself, in the short story The Torturer's Tale , and it doesn't entirely map with what we know of his rise to power within Dark Eldar society.

Even then, the climax of The Fall didn't actually happen all that far ahead of the birth of the Imperium - a few centuries at best. The Birth of Slaanesh cleared the Warp Storms that had contributed to the Age of Strife, and the Great Crusade began very soon afterwards.

Yes, I did forget Vect, though the story of his origins are somewhat more muddled now.

There's someone else - potentially - that I forgot too. Constantin Valdor, Now, while we can't know for certain that he didn't die during the Siege of Terra, the fact that the Custodes were hand-crafted by the Emperor (they're Reunification-era superhumans, their origins predating the Primarch Project and the creation of the mass-production Legiones Astartes) means that the Custodes have either been entirely replaced by mortals or the warriors guarding the Emperor are the same ones who guarded him during the Great Crusade.

This means that potentially, the Adepta Sororitas owe their origins in part to one of the oldest living beings in the Imperium - the Captain of the Adeptus Custodes, and a warrior who walked at the Emperor's side when the Primarchs were only an idea. And, while it could still be invalidated, I like the idea of the Daughters of the Emperor being given the blessing of one of the few men who fought beside the Master of Mankind.

I really prefer it that way, the ol' "He said, she said". The only witness to the age of Vect is Vect himself - Vect at best being an extremely unreliable witness.

I really prefer it that way, the ol' "He said, she said". The only witness to the age of Vect is Vect himself - Vect at best being an extremely unreliable witness.

Indeed, in Torturer's Tale, Vect deliberately leaves the story vague and unfinished, as another means of tormenting the listener... not all torture is of the body.

Some of the Dark Eldar, notably Asdrubael Vect, are PRE FALL. In particular, Vect was actually about to be executed when the Fall happened, effectively saving his life. This makes him considerably older than the Imperium.

There's someone else - potentially - that I forgot too. Constantin Valdor, Now, while we can't know for certain that he didn't die during the Siege of Terra, the fact that the Custodes were hand-crafted by the Emperor (they're Reunification-era superhumans, their origins predating the Primarch Project and the creation of the mass-production Legiones Astartes) means that the Custodes have either been entirely replaced by mortals or the warriors guarding the Emperor are the same ones who guarded him during the Great Crusade.

This means that potentially, the Adepta Sororitas owe their origins in part to one of the oldest living beings in the Imperium - the Captain of the Adeptus Custodes, and a warrior who walked at the Emperor's side when the Primarchs were only an idea. And, while it could still be invalidated, I like the idea of the Daughters of the Emperor being given the blessing of one of the few men who fought beside the Master of Mankind.

I like the insane theory that Rogal Dorn survived the first Black Crusade - though not without losing his arms - and has since been in the Imperial Palace behind the scenes constantly upgrading it and fortifying its defences in order to protect what's left of the Emperor until He rises again.

Working at the same redundant job for 10,000 years seems like a stretch even for Dorn, but I prefer it to just dying to faceless Space Marines.

Some of the Dark Eldar, notably Asdrubael Vect, are PRE FALL. In particular, Vect was actually about to be executed when the Fall happened, effectively saving his life. This makes him considerably older than the Imperium.

There's someone else - potentially - that I forgot too. Constantin Valdor, Now, while we can't know for certain that he didn't die during the Siege of Terra, the fact that the Custodes were hand-crafted by the Emperor (they're Reunification-era superhumans, their origins predating the Primarch Project and the creation of the mass-production Legiones Astartes) means that the Custodes have either been entirely replaced by mortals or the warriors guarding the Emperor are the same ones who guarded him during the Great Crusade.

This means that potentially, the Adepta Sororitas owe their origins in part to one of the oldest living beings in the Imperium - the Captain of the Adeptus Custodes, and a warrior who walked at the Emperor's side when the Primarchs were only an idea. And, while it could still be invalidated, I like the idea of the Daughters of the Emperor being given the blessing of one of the few men who fought beside the Master of Mankind.

I like the insane theory that Rogal Dorn survived the first Black Crusade - though not without losing his arms - and has since been in the Imperial Palace behind the scenes constantly upgrading it and fortifying its defences in order to protect what's left of the Emperor until He rises again.

Working at the same redundant job for 10,000 years seems like a stretch even for Dorn, but I prefer it to just dying to faceless Space Marines.

As fuckwin as that is, I'm about 95% sure Dorn died in the Iron Cage. Because Perturabo is a boss and the Iron Warriors don't get enough streetcred.

I like the insane theory that Rogal Dorn survived the first Black Crusade - though not without losing his arms - and has since been in the Imperial Palace behind the scenes constantly upgrading it and fortifying its defences in order to protect what's left of the Emperor until He rises again.

Working at the same redundant job for 10,000 years seems like a stretch even for Dorn, but I prefer it to just dying to faceless Space Marines.

As fuckwin as that is, I'm about 95% sure Dorn died in the Iron Cage. Because Perturabo is a boss and the Iron Warriors don't get enough streetcred.

Perturabo did get a really interesting backstory and motivation in Angel Exterminatus. That being said though, the Iron Warriors got the first novel series written about them where they did nothing but wreck the Imperium, so I feel like they're the only Chaos Legion that actually seems to regularly accomplish amazing acts of trolling violence against the Imperium without getting made to lose in foregone conclusions.

Two things that haven't been mentioned yet:

1. The sarcosan wave generator, a.k.a. the anima chorus. This allows reanimation of dead tissue, meaning you can keep going even after the body fails. Don't believe me? Just ask Magos Vathek, who is a habitual user. Of course, Vathek is one of the Ordo Calixis' most wanted heretics...

2. There are places in the webway and real space (Processional, Threnos Zone) where time actually flows backward, allowing you to grow younger. This is cited as one reason why Eldar live so dang long.

Cheers,

- V.

2. There are places in the webway and real space (Processional, Threnos Zone) where time actually flows backward, allowing you to grow younger. This is cited as one reason why Eldar live so dang long.

Hmmmm does that affect someone's mind as well? So when they age backwards do the memories that formed during the reversed time just fade away? What about insanity and corruption points?

It'd be my interpretation that time is relative - meaning, wherever time is said to flow backwards, you still age "forward". It just so happens that you might re-enter normal space at a time where you ought to be younger on paper . Because the time-statement is always based on the Terran year.

Same with places where time flows faster. You don't age faster, you just "live longer" - but again only on paper , because you're biologically only 2 months older when 40 Terran years have passed in real space.

Just to muddy the waters further, I'll point out that the BL novel Atlas Infernal has an elderly human character who ages backward while living in the Eldar webway...

Well, on the one hand it would seem weird to me if time would not flow relative to an individual's point - because all those stories about Imperial ships arriving 100 years late because time runs faster would have them do so with dead people and spoiled rations aboard.

On the other hand, we can probably just say "it's the Warp" and assume that anything goes and it depends on the individual incident.

This way, contradictions between different sources could be more or less explained away, even if the real reason is just that their authors didn't care too much about such conflicts.

I haven't seen anything in the official fluff that says you lose memories or have other physical issues from turning back the clock. Then again, this is 40K, and we're discussing the warp. Let's just bury the thread under a huge steaming pile of handwavium and move on.

Cheers,

- V.

So in a more long running game, when a PC wishes to purchase rejuvenat treatments, how would you handle the acquisition test?

Well my understanding is that they are actually fairly common among the nobility, but the types and their effectiveness varies.

I'd eyeball them at extremely rare and add that the "craftsmanship" level is actually pretty important.

-Poor quality only really works to help preserve the mind (intelligence and willpower), normal physical degradation is only marginally affected, and only extends total life to about 125.

-Common quality sustains both physical and mental well-being, but can't stave off appearance based signs of aging (fellowship). This treatment extends life to about 150 years.

-Good quality rejuvenant is the full package, maintaining a reasonably youthful physical appearance, even reversing aging somewhat. This treatment extends life to 200 or so.

-Best quality rejuvenant treatment reverts you to the prime physical life (mid 20's), extends the lifespan to 300 or so, and even enhances healing (+1 wound recovered per day if lightly injured, half chances of dying from blood loss condition)

I might say that you need Peer (nobility) to have the right connections, otherwise you suffer a -10 to your acquisition test, but otherwise make it a normal test. For best quality I might require a short, 1 or 2 game, endeavor to go get some rare components.

Juvenat is probably also available for favoured/valuable Imperial servants... Admiral Locke is listed in BFK as being about 150 but physically resembling a man in his late forties at most. That would fit with Spatula's "Good-Quality" enhancements.

Problem is, we don't know what the base lifespan is for a 41st Millenium citizen. A feral or Hive Worlder probably less than most modern humans. But a relatively high-grade Imperial with access to regular medical care? Base lifespan might actually BE 125 years.

Might be, but they are also expected to have frequent potential exposure to various "exotic energies" that we don't, and a health care system that severely weighs one's value, and their "replacability", if you will, over the cost of said care. You need to decide if, when you say "average lifespan", if you mean "the average span in which an Imperial citizen WILL live", or "the maximum amount of time an Imperial citizen CAN live, barring injury and illness. Just stress can age you in no time; look at the President of the United States. You may pick one, whether you like Obama, a Bush, or whomever; they ALL aged rather extremely in their relatively short time in that office, with "troubles" that would make an Imperium functionary laugh out loud, and THEN punch that old man in the face, for having it easy. The stresses of life in 40K, with imminent war, corpse starch and rations for food, and dangerous jobs done by people, because machines are either too feared to be trusted, or the AdMech can't risk their safety, hardier though they are, when some expendable humans are right there. We live comparatively simple, low-maintenance, low-stress lives, and thus we now live longer than we once did, "when life was tougher."

A few hints are occasionally strewn throughout the various books -- for example, the Marine Codex mentioned Chaplain Cassius being the oldest Ultramarine at "close to 400", and the TT basic rulebook said that most Marines have a biological lifespan of "up to 2-3 times that of a normal man" (barring injury or illness). Taking those numbers, we could infer that said "normal man" can live up to ~125 years as Matth431 suggested, though personally I'm going with an even 100 just for the sake of simplicity.

Also, it's save to assume that only a very few people in the Imperium won't suffer from some illness as a result of their deplorable living conditions, cutting down on that number significantly, perhaps as low as 50%. Or even lower in some places (Baal).

Needless to say, though, other books may say different things (FFG's Deathwatch seems to suggest Marines to be biologically immortal, for example), so like with most fluff in 40k this is by no means an authoritative statement.

FFG themselves seem a bit divided on the issue... Following the Adm. Locke example above, there's a character in Hostile Acquisitions who is only in his fifties and "resigning himself to the fact he can no longer fight as effectively on the front lines" because he lacks access to rejuvenats. A few pages later we have a man in his sixties who "resembles a man in his thirties" due to rejuvenat treatment.

Mayhap rejuvenats can "reset" you but only so far? A first-time treatment in your fifties resets you to twenty. You could have another rejuve when you reach "50" or "60" again (so now 80-90 years old), but it only resets you to "30". Thirty years after that you can rejuve to "40"... Etcetera... Diminishing returns eventually mean you'll "reset" into a body that's not noticeably less decrepit than current, but would allow a man of 150 to look physically 50 years old. A 200-year old though would still be about 70-80 after the treatment.

FFG themselves seem a bit divided on the issue... Following the Adm. Locke example above, there's a character in Hostile Acquisitions who is only in his fifties and "resigning himself to the fact he can no longer fight as effectively on the front lines" because he lacks access to rejuvenats. A few pages later we have a man in his sixties who "resembles a man in his thirties" due to rejuvenat treatment.

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something, but .. where is the contradiction?

Mayhap rejuvenats can "reset" you but only so far? A first-time treatment in your fifties resets you to twenty. You could have another rejuve when you reach "50" or "60" again (so now 80-90 years old), but it only resets you to "30". Thirty years after that you can rejuve to "40"... Etcetera... Diminishing returns eventually mean you'll "reset" into a body that's not noticeably less decrepit than current, but would allow a man of 150 to look physically 50 years old. A 200-year old though would still be about 70-80 after the treatment.

Possibly -- I guess there's several different ways these treatments can be interpreted. It's even possible that there exist different ways of rejuvenation, which all work by different means and have different degrees of efficiency. Some might make you age slower, others effectively stop your biological clock for a century or so, and yet others may even revert your age several decades. Some of them could be a drug you have to take daily. Others are session you have to undergo once a year. Yet others involve invasive surgery.

And which one of these a person has access to would depend as much on their station in Imperial hierarchy as well as what's advertised by the local Magos Biologis faction.

Of course, that's just one idea, and it could just as well all be the same thing. But the above theory allows me to consider that perhaps Space Marines use the exact same rejuvenation techniques as Imperial nobles. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

FFG themselves seem a bit divided on the issue... Following the Adm. Locke example above, there's a character in Hostile Acquisitions who is only in his fifties and "resigning himself to the fact he can no longer fight as effectively on the front lines" because he lacks access to rejuvenats. A few pages later we have a man in his sixties who "resembles a man in his thirties" due to rejuvenat treatment.

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something, but .. where is the contradiction?

Mayhap rejuvenats can "reset" you but only so far? A first-time treatment in your fifties resets you to twenty. You could have another rejuve when you reach "50" or "60" again (so now 80-90 years old), but it only resets you to "30". Thirty years after that you can rejuve to "40"... Etcetera... Diminishing returns eventually mean you'll "reset" into a body that's not noticeably less decrepit than current, but would allow a man of 150 to look physically 50 years old. A 200-year old though would still be about 70-80 after the treatment.

Possibly -- I guess there's several different ways these treatments can be interpreted. It's even possible that there exist different ways of rejuvenation, which all work by different means and have different degrees of efficiency. Some might make you age slower, others effectively stop your biological clock for a century or so, and yet others may even revert your age several decades. Some of them could be a drug you have to take daily. Others are session you have to undergo once a year. Yet others involve invasive surgery.

And which one of these a person has access to would depend as much on their station in Imperial hierarchy as well as what's advertised by the local Magos Biologis faction.

Of course, that's just one idea, and it could just as well all be the same thing. But the above theory allows me to consider that perhaps Space Marines use the exact same rejuvenation techniques as Imperial nobles. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

Well, the contradiction seems to me to lie in a suggested "physical wearing-out" around the same age we expect modern humans to start slowing down, with Rejuve treatments not only delaying but actually reversing some of the symptoms of age, including appearance. However, if humans expect to have to start taking the treatments as early as 50-60 years of age to stay sharp, then I think we can say that the base "active" lifespan is not that great. The flavour text for the Admiral made it seem like it was nothing out of the ordinary and indeed he is still fairly "young" for someone of his stature, whereas the text for the other guys implies that extensive use of rejuve would be needed to make it to that age and still be physically active.

Sadly, Hostile Acquisitions has another character who is listed as extremely elderly and frail with "only a few years of life left to him", but doesn't give his age - that would help.

Well, the contradiction seems to me to lie in a suggested "physical wearing-out" around the same age we expect modern humans to start slowing down, with Rejuve treatments not only delaying but actually reversing some of the symptoms of age, including appearance.

Ah, I thought you were referring to FFG contradicting themselves.

Well ... even if we take your 125 years, it makes sense for humans to start "slowing down" at around their 40s. I'm not sure how ageing differences work, exactly, but at a guess I'd say that a higher lifespan does not actually stretch your body's development out over a longer timeframe (or at least not by much), but rather simply has that frail old body of yours get a little more frail and a little older before it finally breaks down, the internal organs making it a little longer even as your outside skin crumples more.

On a sidenote, last week I just happened to watch an NHK documentary about "KBG84" - a play on the girl group AKB48 - that only accepts dancers who are at least 80 years of age.

http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/03/05/japans-newest-idol-group-kbg84-hails-from-okinawa-has-an-average-age-of-84/

I'd say that Juvenat treatments consist of a wide range of treatments, including stimulants that slow the aging process (but with diminishing returns... eventually, the drugs just stop working), to cloned organs (your kidneys are failing? We'll clone you new ones!), bionics and augmetics, non-cloned donor tissue (less efficient than cloned tissue, as you don't risk tissue rejection if it's cloned), and illegal options (sorcery, xenotech, etc).

The wealthiest and most important people can obtain a wide range of techniques to prolong their lives... to a point, because stalling the aging process is an uphill struggle if you want to retain any semblance of humanity. Tech-Priests (for whom 'retaining their humanity') can often last far longer than normal people, as only their brain needs to be preserved (everything else can be replaced).

Not a geneticist, but I think even "cloned" tissue and organs risks rejection, as genetic degradation can be in even that first batch. I have an identical twin, and we would have, for the best part, identical DNA, except what might've changed/deviated over the years of our separate lives, and I'm no more willing to say I couldn't reject his kidney, or vice versa, than I might reject yours; the body is a weird unit, sometimes, and you'd still probably have to take rejection drugs, for the rest of your life. I seem to remember one of the MANY critiques of Erasure? (that Arnold Schwarzenegger film where he finds out they have copies of people, for this very reason); even clones don't work that way. Not wanting to sound like a ******, just trying to sound smart, about something I know rather precious little fact about.

Yeah, I assume that "rejuvenant treatment" can mean lots of various things, from giving you over to the Mechanicus, and having them swap out your internal organs, one or two at a time, and "pep drugs", that just help alleviate the signs of age (you're only as old as you feel?), all the way up to actual age-reversal serums, and weirder, that start to go of in the direction of "it works because the background says it is something these people can do." Like I exampled eons ago, Ascension has the Venerable Cal, and he has various life-support apparatus in his body, and more outside it, in the form of his chair. Certain augmetics, and definitely strange tubes, are rife on Imperial humans, and with no appearance of weakened status; hell, with the expense, and the AdMech's hold on keeping the good toys, one might argue that, to be seen with some cybernetics would actually be a status INCREASE, as in an Imperium known for seeing so many others as replaceable, you warranted the effort of preserving, so you must matter.