2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Freezing a blaster bolt? Since it's a moving thing, ... I'd go with Bind.

This is perfect. Thank you, DM, for this early Christmas gift

Here's how little this joker and @Daeglan understand the mechanics of the game, folks.

Bind has no way to be used as an Out of Turn Incidental. This interpretation of a use of the Power is blatant, complete nonsense. Just as the rest of the stuff is that they're pretending didn't get an obvious "cannot" from the Dev.

You could certainly target the N/PC shooting at you, on your turn/before their turn, hold them, and " say " you've frozen a blaster bolt from them that was never game-mechanically shot. But this is a perfect example of how they're wrong, and don't understand what they're trying so hard to talk about as if they're informed on the subject.

By the way, @Donovan Morningfire you owe me an admission that all of this including the prior nonsense you've been talking about up until now is all nothing more than your own house ruled conception. Just as you speculated I would have to do, were you right. Which you clearly weren't, and are not.

Can't wait to hear the backpedaling, equivocating, and retro-justification you're gonna pull out of the hat for this.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Since neither emsqured or Tramp Graphics is apparently mentally incapable of addressing these, I'll take a stab at them...

If neither of them are mentally incapable, what are you doing here?

1 hour ago, emsquared said:

This is perfect. Thank you, DM, for this early Christmas gift

Here's how little this joker and @Daeglan understand the mechanics of the game, folks.

Bind has no way to be used as an Out of Turn Incidental. This interpretation of a use of the Power is blatant, complete nonsense. Just as the rest of the stuff is that they're pretending didn't get an obvious "cannot" from the Dev.

You could certainly target the N/PC shooting at you, on your turn/before their turn, hold them, and " say " you've frozen a blaster bolt from them that was never game-mechanically shot. But this is a perfect example of how they're wrong, and don't understand what they're trying so hard to talk about as if they're informed on the subject.

By the way, @Donovan Morningfire you owe me an admission that all of this including the prior nonsense you've been talking about up until now is all nothing more than your own house ruled conception. Just as you speculated I would have to do, were you right. Which you clearly weren't, and are not.

Can't wait to hear the backpedaling, equivocating, and retro-justification you're gonna pull out of the hat for this.

Ok. Then how would you accomplish those? As DM said bind is the closest we have with out building from scratch. If you have a better idea i am open to hearing it.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

*Asanine remark from a witless jackass*

Answering Daeglan's question about how the game would handle a trio of situations, which is something actually on topic . Which is far more than can be said for your pathetic attempt at being witty.

16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Ok. Then how would you accomplish those? As DM said bind is the closest we have with out building from scratch. If you have a better idea i am open to hearing it.

2 hours ago, emsquared said:

Bind has no way to be used as an Out of Turn Incidental. <snip>

You could certainly target the N/PC shooting at you, on your turn/before their turn, hold them, and " say " you've frozen a blaster bolt from them that was never game-mechanically shot. <snip>

This^^^ He is definitely right on this one.

Remember, Kylo didn't just freeze the bolt, he froze Poe. That scene would be better treated mechanically as Kylo winning initiative and freezing Poe before he could get a shot off (mechanically). Then, the GM narrates it as "You stand up to fire, but as you squeeze the trigger, the man with the lightsaber whirls around! The bolt freezes in midair, and you feel a cold grip close in around you, and no matter how hard you try, you can't move."

(for the record, it's been a while since I watched TFA. I think that there was another scene where he froze a bolt, but I can't remember it.)

I'd say that force choke is Bind and that Move was used to pull down the pillar, like Donovan said, but I'd say that freezing a blaster bolt is actually just narrative flair for either Bind or for Protect, which allows the Force user to negate incoming damage.

Similar to how you can Reflect 5 damage from a 10 damage shot, and then with your Soak 5, you can narrate it as deflecting the shot entirely.

Then you Take Kylo, give him Soak 5, Reflect 3, and Protect, and he can easily negate all the damage from Poe's shot. Since he goes next in the initiative order, then he uses Bind on Poe. Then you narrate it for funsies. Easy.

17 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Which is far more than can be said for your pathetic attempt at being witty.

I used your mistake to poke fun at your insinuation that Emsquared and Tramp are unintelligent for having a differing opinion. Seems pretty on topic to me, especially since you made it the topic.

21 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Well except others arent as convinced as you. The thing is what differentiates an animate object frkm an inanimate one? And i dont mean in the rules but i. The universe. What would one power work and another not work?

What power would you ise to freeze a blaster bolt?

What power would you use to crush everything around Vader in episode 3?

What power would you use to crush the base of the pillar in episode 2?

I would say yo uh could use move or bind. But bind seems to fit crushing things better.

Also making rhings bold makes you less convincing not more.

A mind, an independent will, a consciousness

6 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Since neither emsqured or Tramp Graphics is apparently mentally incapable of addressing these, I'll take a stab at them...

Freezing a blaster bolt? Since it's a moving thing, and the dev answer implies that you can't target inanimate objects (or at least not personal items), I'd go with Bind. It's the closest thing we've got without building a custom talent or Force power effect. I doubt the devs had this sort of thing in mind when writing Bind, but then ever Star Wars film has introduced some new usage of the Force that was otherwise considered "impossible," and I find myself curious to see what new Force trick/ability we're going to see in TRoS.

Vader's tantrum is probably an effect of his custom Force Choke special ability, which just lets him spend Force points to inflict damage. He's not tossing them about, so Move is out since that relies on literally moving the affected target from one point to another, and Harm's definitely out since that only affects living targets. I suppose Unleash could work, with Vader's theme of the power being telekintic brute force as opposed to hurling energy about, and he's easily got the Force Rating and Discipline skill to inflict notable damage on everything immediately around him (short range). Bind is also possible, since Vader's mostly damaging droids (who aren't inanimate objects) and some of the surrounding medical equipment, but that could just be narrative fluff to display the extent of his largely uncontrolled tantrum, or GM Lucas was willing to let Anakin/Vader's player affect the scenery when using Bind due to him rolling so many dark side pips on the power check. So you've got your choice of Bind, Unleash, or Vader's custom ability, any of which could work for that scene.

Crushing a pillar base? I'd probably lean towards that being Move, with the notion that the "crushing" part is just descriptive of the Force user's (Dooku I presume?) intent being to drop the pillar on someone rather than the desired goal being to crush the pillar base. Not unlike Vader's ripping machinery off the walls during the second stage of his duel with Luke in ESB, where the intent wasn't to damage the machinery but rather to hurl a bunch of things (generally Silhouette 0) at Luke to further wear the boy down.

Sam Stewart has specifically said you cannot use Bind to stop a blaster bolt. I asked him about that very issue. IF you want to crush a pillar, you use Move . Bind does not work on objects . It works on droids and life forms. Sam Stewart and the development team have stated this flat out.

@P-47 Thunderbolt OK Boomer.

21 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

@P-47 Thunderbolt OK Boomer.

Oh, wow. You have no idea. (P-47s came before Baby Boomers )

I have a rule against using ad hominem, but I'll make an exception this one time. Are you incapable of disagreeing with someone without impugning their intelligence or motives? Cus that's what it seems like.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A mind, an independent will, a consciousness

Sam Stewart has specifically said you cannot use Bind to stop a blaster bolt. I asked him about that very issue. IF you want to crush a pillar, you use Move . Bind does not work on objects . It works on droids and life forms. Sam Stewart and the development team have stated this flat out.

Then answer my question on how you would pull off the scene in question. A better question tonhave asked Sam is how he would.pull off moves like Kylo did.

50 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Then answer my question on how you would pull off the scene in question. A better question tonhave asked Sam is how he would.pull off moves like Kylo did.

Protect, Soak, and narrative flair.

Initiative order:
1) Poe
2) Kylo
3) Minion group of Stormtroopers

Poe:
Maneuver: Move
Action: Shoot at Kylo: 2s1a (11 Damage)
Kylo out-of-turn incidental: Protect power check: 3s1a, 3 DS Force Points. Blocks 6 points of Damage (Will 3+3). Soak 5 (Brawn 3+2 for armor) negates the remaining damage. Narrated as Freezing the bolt.

Kylo:
Action: Bind power check: 2 DS Force Points: Freezes Poe in place, inflicts Disoriented, rolls opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check and staggers him as well.*
Maneuver: Walk over to him

Minion group of Stormtroopers:
Maneuver: Walk over to Poe
Maneuver (gives up action): Cuffs Poe

*Technically, he would have had to use no Dark Side pips, but I don't see how this makes all that much sense. I don't see why it wouldn't be a choice between the two for a Dark Sider. The inverse would make sense, though. You should have to use Dark Side points to trigger a crit.

This is how you all are gonna spend the holidays, isn't it?

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Protect, Soak, and narrative flair.

Initiative order:
1) Poe
2) Kylo
3) Minion group of Stormtroopers

Poe:
Maneuver: Move
Action: Shoot at Kylo: 2s1a (11 Damage)
Kylo out-of-turn incidental: Protect power check: 3s1a, 3 DS Force Points. Blocks 6 points of Damage (Will 3+3). Soak 5 (Brawn 3+2 for armor) negates the remaining damage. Narrated as Freezing the bolt.

Kylo:
Action: Bind power check: 2 DS Force Points: Freezes Poe in place, inflicts Disoriented, rolls opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check and staggers him as well.*
Maneuver: Walk over to him

Minion group of Stormtroopers:
Maneuver: Walk over to Poe
Maneuver (gives up action): Cuffs Poe

*Technically, he would have had to use no Dark Side pips, but I don't see how this makes all that much sense. I don't see why it wouldn't be a choice between the two for a Dark Sider. The inverse would make sense, though. You should have to use Dark Side points to trigger a crit.

Kylo doesnt seem like a 3 force rating character though...

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Kylo doesnt seem like a 3 force rating character though...

Really? He's the grandson of Darth Vader and was trained by Luke Skywalker. When you look at official stats, pretty much everyone has at least FR 3. Ahsoka has FR 3, and Asajj Ventress has FR 3, but most other big name characters have FR 4+. The only named character I know of who is statted as FR 2 is Savage Oppress, and he wasn't shown as being that powerful in the force.

Regardless whether you think he is that powerful, he would almost certainly be statted as FR 3 at a minimum.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Are you incapable of disagreeing with someone without impugning their intelligence or motives? Cus that's what it seems like.

Pot, meet kettle.

56 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

This is how you all are gonna spend the holidays, isn't it?

At this point, the sane thing to do is just ignore the thread and move on. If they want to continue their pissing match, let 'em.

For myself, this thread can go burn to a slow gruesome death in a chemical fire.

5 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Pot, meet kettle.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I have a rule against using ad hominem, but I'll make an exception this one time. Are you incapable of disagreeing with someone without impugning their intelligence or motives? Cus that's what it seems like.

Full quote^^ (emphasis added)

On 12/14/2019 at 1:43 PM, Daeglan said:

Well except others arent as convinced as you. The thing is what differentiates an animate object frkm an inanimate one? And i dont mean in the rules but i. The universe. What would one power work and another not work?

What power would you ise to freeze a blaster bolt?

None the Slow Power does not exist in the RPG

What power would you use to crush everything around Vader in episode 3?

Move with a lot of Magnitude upgrades

What power would you use to crush the base of the pillar in episode 2?

Move

I would say yo uh could use move or bind. But bind seems to fit crushing things better.

Its not. because Bind only works on people, droids and animals. It also does not reach the level of damage required to hurt a pillar.

Also making rhings bold makes you less convincing not more.

Whats your point?

Why are special snowflakes trying to use a power to do something it can not do?

Cal in Fallen Order has a power called Slow that lets him slow things down to the point where they move very very slowly.

Kylo Ren uses the same power to make it look like things have stopped moving.

If and when we get a Rise of The First Order splatbook we might see Slow. Until then please for the love of God stop trying to make the system do things its really terrible at doing.

23 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Then answer my question on how you would pull off the scene in question. A better question tonhave asked Sam is how he would.pull off moves like Kylo did.

21 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Protect, Soak, and narrative flair.

Initiative order:
1) Poe
2) Kylo
3) Minion group of Stormtroopers

Poe:
Maneuver: Move
Action: Shoot at Kylo: 2s1a (11 Damage)
Kylo out-of-turn incidental: Protect power check: 3s1a, 3 DS Force Points. Blocks 6 points of Damage (Will 3+3). Soak 5 (Brawn 3+2 for armor) negates the remaining damage. Narrated as Freezing the bolt.

Kylo:
Action: Bind power check: 2 DS Force Points: Freezes Poe in place, inflicts Disoriented, rolls opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check and staggers him as well.*
Maneuver: Walk over to him

Minion group of Stormtroopers:
Maneuver: Walk over to Poe
Maneuver (gives up action): Cuffs Poe

*Technically, he would have had to use no Dark Side pips, but I don't see how this makes all that much sense. I don't see why it wouldn't be a choice between the two for a Dark Sider. The inverse would make sense, though. You should have to use Dark Side points to trigger a crit.

20 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Kylo doesnt seem like a 3 force rating character though...

20 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Really? He's the grandson of Darth Vader and was trained by Luke Skywalker. When you look at official stats, pretty much everyone has at least FR 3. Ahsoka has FR 3, and Asajj Ventress has FR 3, but most other big name characters have FR 4+. The only named character I know of who is statted as FR 2 is Savage Oppress, and he wasn't shown as being that powerful in the force.

Regardless whether you think he is that powerful, he would almost certainly be statted as FR 3 at a minimum.

@P-47 Thunderbolt nailed it. Most of your named Force users in the SW fiction with game stats are FR 3 or more.

37 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@P-47 Thunderbolt nailed it. Most of your named Force users in the SW fiction with game stats are FR 3 or more.

that's the thing there is force rating and then there is the force tree. Kylo feels like lower force rating with higher points in his force trees. so less raw power.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

that's the thing there is force rating and then there is the force tree. Kylo feels like lower force rating with higher points in his force trees. so less raw power.

Nope. Kylo would be at least Force Rating 3, particularly given his bloodline, which is naturally extremely strong in the Force.

On 12/15/2019 at 5:58 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Protect, Soak, and narrative flair.

Initiative order:
1) Poe
2) Kylo
3) Minion group of Stormtroopers

Poe:
Maneuver: Move
Action: Shoot at Kylo: 2s1a (11 Damage)
Kylo out-of-turn incidental: Protect power check: 3s1a, 3 DS Force Points. Blocks 6 points of Damage (Will 3+3). Soak 5 (Brawn 3+2 for armor) negates the remaining damage. Narrated as Freezing the bolt.

Kylo:
Action: Bind power check: 2 DS Force Points: Freezes Poe in place, inflicts Disoriented, rolls opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check and staggers him as well.*
Maneuver: Walk over to him

Minion group of Stormtroopers:
Maneuver: Walk over to Poe
Maneuver (gives up action): Cuffs Poe

*Technically, he would have had to use no Dark Side pips, but I don't see how this makes all that much sense. I don't see why it wouldn't be a choice between the two for a Dark Sider. The inverse would make sense, though. You should have to use Dark Side points to trigger a crit.

The only problem here is it doesn't match up to what we see in the film, and is later repeated in Jedi: Fallen Order.

In the film, Poe is frozen exactly at the same time as the blaster bolt is stopped. This is significant in your representation of events, as if Poe had an out-of-turn reaction he could have used it to avoid Kylo's use of the Force. Even more, it's possible that Kylo could have failed the Bind check, resulting in the bolt being frozen but Poe not. This inconsistency makes the power in Jedi: Fallen Order not representative of the film's power use (which it was based off of) and so the question still remains. I'm not arguing that it isn't a way to explain it, I'm just arguing that it isn't the way that satisfies all information we have on the effect.

In regards to what Sam said, at the time, he was answering a question without context. Moreover, Kylo and The Force Awakens was the only thing out there. The one thing that's true is that things change and as we have access to more information, that means we need to re-evaluate things based on new information. Now that Jedi: Fallen Order is out and we see a more pervasive set of circumstances around the power, maybe that changes how Sam will think of the power, or maybe he would suggest a whole new power to explain it, who knows? Maybe Kylo has an ability that allowed him to interrupt Poe's action to use a Force Power, in which case Bind could work as seen on film, and we can assume that Cal has it too in J:FO. In this regard, either way is a reasonable explanation of what happened in the game and movie.

I think everyone is taking it a little too seriously, and trying to be right instead of trying to give the OP tools to use at his table. I appreciate both sides of the argument for highlighting their logic behind what to use, but seriously guys, at this point can't we just say "use the reasoning that fits your table" and call it a day?

6 minutes ago, Kyla said:

In the film, Poe is frozen exactly at the same time as the blaster bolt is stopped. This is significant in your representation of events, as if Poe had an out-of-turn reaction he could have used it to avoid Kylo's use of the Force. Even more, it's possible that Kylo could have failed the Bind check, resulting in the bolt being frozen but Poe not. This inconsistency makes the power in Jedi: Fallen Order not representative of the film's power use (which it was based off of) and so the question still remains. I'm not arguing that it isn't a way to explain it, I'm just arguing that it isn't the way that satisfies all information we have on the effect.

But in this play-by-play explanation, he didn't fail the check and Poe didn't have an oot reaction, so it matches up to the movie.

Aside from that, just because something mechanically doesn't happen simultaneously doesn't mean it can't be narrated as such.

This is how, in my opinion, that scene would have been completed using RAW.

For Cal Kestis's ability in J:FO, I'd use Move. RAW suggests that the GM allow/require the PC to commit a Force die to maintain the power. I would mechanically interpret Cal Kestis's use of the force as Move with a committed Force Die until he was ready to drop the power.

i.e. Move: Freezes fan in place. Commits Force Die, runs through gap, drops power (uncommitting Force Die and allowing the fan to resume its original movement).

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

For Cal Kestis's ability in J:FO, I'd use Move. RAW suggests that the GM allow/require the PC to commit a Force die to maintain the power. I would mechanically interpret Cal Kestis's use of the force as Move with a committed Force Die until he was ready to drop the power.

i.e. Move: Freezes fan in place. Commits Force Die, runs through gap, drops power (uncommitting Force Die and allowing the fan to resume its original movement).

Except that in the game, when used on a Stormtrooper it also freezes their blaster bolts in place. In fact, one of the challenges specifically is to freeze a target in place after he has fired a blaster bolt, then pull the target into his own, still frozen, blaster bolt. Visually and mechanically, both Cal and Kylo use the same power to accomplish the same effect. This means your ruling that Cal uses Move also now apply to Kylo's use? If it doesn't what is different about Cal's use and Kylo's that creates the differentiation?

16 minutes ago, Kyla said:

Except that in the game, when used on a Stormtrooper it also freezes their blaster bolts in place. In fact, one of the challenges specifically is to freeze a target in place after he has fired a blaster bolt, then pull the target into his own, still frozen, blaster bolt. Visually and mechanically, both Cal and Kylo use the same power to accomplish the same effect. This means your ruling that Cal uses Move also now apply to Kylo's use? If it doesn't what is different about Cal's use and Kylo's that creates the differentiation?

Ah. I didn't remember Cal had that ability. I don't know how that would be done RAW.

1 hour ago, Kyla said:

Except that in the game, when used on a Stormtrooper it also freezes their blaster bolts in place. In fact, one of the challenges specifically is to freeze a target in place after he has fired a blaster bolt, then pull the target into his own, still frozen, blaster bolt. Visually and mechanically, both Cal and Kylo use the same power to accomplish the same effect. This means your ruling that Cal uses Move also now apply to Kylo's use? If it doesn't what is different about Cal's use and Kylo's that creates the differentiation?

There are some powers that this game system simply doesn't allow for. That may be one of them. Another is Sever Force (AKA Wall of Light ) the ability to permanently cut a darksider off from the Force (as done to Ulic Qel Droma by Nomi Sinrider in TotJ The Sith War ). I know that because I asked Sam Stewart about how to simulate that ability, and that was his response.