1 minute ago, SirToastsalot said:

Game effects take precedence when they are overlapping triggers. The tractored from the pin point isn't over lapping anything so the move comes after the rotate. In the ability queue section it states that if an effect triggers other effects they're added to the front of the ability queue, meaning they resolve after the current ability is resolving.

I'm not 100% sure about the timing for the tractor effect, so you could be right, although it seems to me that the effect and the rotate action are both triggered by the "receive a tractor token" part of the ability.

But my point was about the timing for the debris stress, which is clearly defined on the Rules Reference and creates no trouble for the Nantex's ability.

24 minutes ago, FilipeFreitas said:

When you overlap a debris, if you are not executing a maneuver, you receive the stress AFTER you move, while the rotate action happens simultaneously to the tractor effect. So the proper order seems to be: 1. Gain a tractor token, 2. Move the ship (as the tractor effect is a game effect it should happen before rotating), 3. Rotate, 4. Gain stress.

Sir Toast is correct i beleive. Given the discussions in other threats, its been pointed out that that the rotate action happens before the cost is applied. The same goes for red actions/stress and purple actions/force.

Quote

◊ As a cost to attempt to perform a red action, a ship must gain 1 stress token.
◊ As a cost to attempt to perform a purple action, a ship must spend 1 [force].

Now, if the stress was actually applied to the ship before the red action, then technically, that stress would prevent that action from being performed. So logically, and mechanically, you attempt the red action, then pay the cost. In much the same way that you (normally) have service (like on your car for example) done first, THEN you pay the person for work performed. (a poor example, but i think you get what im saying).

So proper order, for any "pay this to do this" would be doing the thing, then paying the cost (as far as sequence goes), but timing wise, they happen at the same time. So you'd rotate, gain the tractor, resolve the tractored effect, overlap debris, resolve debris effect.

1 minute ago, Lyianx said:

So proper order, for any "pay this to do this" would be doing the thing, then paying the cost (as far as sequence goes), but timing wise, they happen at the same time. So you'd rotate, gain the tractor, resolve the tractored effect, overlap debris, resolve debris effect.

Sure, but given the timing for the debris stress, the order of rotate and tractor effect is irrelevant (although relevant in other ways, since rotating after moving gives the Nantex an advantage), as the stress happens only after moving.

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:43 PM, Frimmel said:

For me under "Paying Costs" the Rules Ref. says: "A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved." It is logical that this entire chain must start somewhere.

Makes sense. And a Rotate action is not listed as one that can fail.

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:22 PM, thespaceinvader said:

The trouble with that is that the arc rotation is supposed to be a cost of the tractor beam.

It's the other way around, isn't it - "you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a rotate action". So tractor is the 'cost' and rotate the 'payoff' - and since Rotate can't fail, I'd be hesitant to create any situation where you can pay the tractor and not be able to complete the sequence.

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:52 PM, theBitterFig said:

The whole "can't pay the cost if you can't resolve the effect" seems to imply the best way to view things as the effect happening first, then the cost is paid. Rotate first, then tractor, and then deal with any effects from where the tractor moved you. That strikes me as fairly clean, and kind of matches how red actions work. Do the thing, then gain the stress.

That would make sense; since - if you've not repositioned - nothing can mess with the order of events if you rotate first, then rotating first seems like the best way to do it, as it doesn't then matter what random effects you may set off by repositioning.

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 7:06 PM, SirToastsalot said:

Theoretically every nantex should be rotating their arc before they move. While it doesn't always make a difference letting them move first, then rotate gives them more information about where they should rotate their arc.

That's another good point. Being able to eyeball for definite which of two arcs you want your mobile arc in after repositioning, rather than guessing before you reposition is clearly taking some of the judgement out of the process. So, to me, that's another argument in favour of rotate/tractor/reposition as standard practice.

48 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's the other way around, isn't it - "you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a rotate action". So tractor is the 'cost' and rotate the 'payoff' - and since Rotate can't fail, I'd be hesitant to create any situation where you can pay the tractor and not be able to complete the sequence.

If you read the rest of the thread, you might note that I answered this point already; I meant cost in a colloquial way, rather than a rule way. The fact that you have to rotate the turret if you want to reposition is intended to make the ship harder to fly, because you can't keep your turret where it is and still reposition.

27 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The fact that you have to rotate the turret if you want to reposition is intended to make the ship harder to fly, because you can't keep your turret where it is and still reposition.

Agreed.

I know it's compulsory.

What I meant was that whilst it's hard to split things up by 'forced' rules sequence, doing things in the order of rotate/tractor rather than tractor/rotate means that there's no way you can render yourself unable to rotate before you get to the rotate action in the chain of events. Since that also makes the act of judging where you want to put your turret pointer harder, that feels like the right way around to do it.

Here's the way I see it; it probably echoes the majority opinion here:

1) Nantex executes a maneuver and chooses to use the Pinpoint ability (which enters the queue). The ability reads "you cannot rotate your to your . After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a [Rotate] action." You gain a tractor token (player ability) to perform a [Rotate] action (player ability). When you gain the tractor token, you have to perform a [Rotate] action. This must fully resolve , because it's a single clause. @SirToastsalot mentions this in asserting that all Nantex players should be performing the rotate before they move.

2) After you gain a tractor token, the tractor effect enters the queue, as the next in line to resolve. The ship ability fully resolves, and the tractor effect of boosting or barrel-rolling occurs, as chosen by the player of the Nantex (whose action caused the tractor effect to apply). Tractor effects mean that you can overlap objects as a result of the reposition, which would then trigger the debris field effect.

3) The boost or barrel roll occurs. Since it's not a typical boost or barrel roll (neither of which allows you to overlap an object - the effect fails if this would be the case, as per game rules), you can overlap an object.

4) You overlap a debris field. Debris fields trigger when a ship overlaps or moves through them, so the effect then resolves as normal. You receive a stress and roll to determine if you suffer one [Crit] damage or not. If you have any actions that you can perform "while stressed", these can resolve, but otherwise, you get no action (since you cannot perform actions while stressed).

End result - the Nantex is in the debris field, with a turret arc indicator rotation performed and a stress token assigned, meaning that it can attack as normal during engagement phase. If it suffered a damage, it should have been dealt a [Crit] damage card. It remains tractored, so the token is still on the ship, and cannot be transferred except if the conditions for Ensnare are met (i.e. a ship at range 0-1 in the turret arc).

Here is the timing of of the effects/triggers....

Gain tractor token to rotate your arc via rotate action (pilot ability)

Roll over debris (pilot ability)

Gain stress token (game effect)

Roll for possible damage (game effect)

Attempt to perform rotate action, but cannot due to stress token

The question here is how to address abilities that are already in ability queue and can not longer be resolved because of a change in the game state. My opinion is this.. can you rotate your arc when you paid the cost? Yes? Then you may gain the tractor token. To me, there is a difference between... can you do the action? vs did you do the action?

43 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

Gain tractor token to rotate your arc via rotate action (pilot ability)

Sorry, but i agree with others that you rotate, then gain the tractor token. This puts it in line with Stress tokens and makes it easier to deal with.

19 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

Here is the timing of of the effects/triggers....

Gain tractor token to rotate your arc via rotate action (pilot ability)

Roll over debris (pilot ability)

Gain stress token (game effect)

Roll for possible damage (game effect)

Attempt to perform rotate action, but cannot due to stress token

The question here is how to address abilities that are already in ability queue and can not longer be resolved because of a change in the game state. My opinion is this.. can you rotate your arc when you paid the cost? Yes? Then you may gain the tractor token. To me, there is a difference between... can you do the action? vs did you do the action?

You're rehashing the same problem - the rotate action is performed when you gain the tractor token, not when you reposition. The reposition is an effect of becoming tractored, not an action that has a cost.

7 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

You're rehashing the same problem - the rotate action is performed when you gain the tractor token, not when you reposition. The reposition is an effect of becoming tractored, not an action that has a cost.

Technically, i think the tractor token is gained when you perform the rotate action (not vice versa).

Just now, Lyianx said:

Technically, i think the tractor token is gained when you perform the rotate action (not vice versa).

The wording on the ability is in my original post - "You cannot rotate your [turret arc indicator] to your [rear arc]. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a [Rotate] action." The tractor token allows the rotate action to be performed, not the other way around.

33 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

The wording on the ability is in my original post - "You cannot rotate your [turret arc indicator] to your [rear arc]. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a [Rotate] action." The tractor token allows the rotate action to be performed, not the other way around.

I put little weight in the order of the words unless the sentence structure makes it important. Like if it said "After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token. If you do, you may perform a [rotate] action."

As it stands, i see them happening at once. So i see the tractor token as the payment, to rotate. Just like a stress token is the payment to perform (or attempt) a red action. But you don't gain the stress token before you perform that action, as it would prevent that action.

Either way, the result is the same wither you're technically correct, or i am. But i think the way i read it, is important to make sure the rotate happens. Where as your interpretation leaves arguments (invalid, granted) that effects can trigger off gaining the tractor token and 'interrupt' the turret rotation. It, of course, does not, but just the interpretation leaves it open for people to argue that.

If that makes sense lol. I probably worded that in a convoluted way.

20 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

Here is the timing of of the effects/triggers....

Gain tractor token to rotate your arc via rotate action (pilot ability)

Roll over debris (pilot ability)

Gain stress token (game effect)

Roll for possible damage (game effect)

Attempt to perform rotate action, but cannot due to stress token

This cannot happen under current rules. The timing for the effect of the debris (if a ship is not executing a maneuver) is AFTER moving. Regardless of the order between the rotate action and the tractor move, the stress will not prevent the rotate action, just the normal action on the Perform Action step.

On 10/4/2019 at 7:00 AM, FilipeFreitas said:

This cannot happen under current rules. The timing for the effect of the debris (if a ship is not executing a maneuver) is AFTER moving. Regardless of the order between the rotate action and the tractor move, the stress will not prevent the rotate action, just the normal action on the Perform Action step.

From RR(1.0.5) p.13 says that you trigger effects after maneuvering , but if you move without maneuvering the effects happen "when" you overlap. Hence the argument about order of operations.

The Pinpoint Tractor+Rotate, the debris effect, and the move when Tractored effect are all worded as being concurrent.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

From RR(1.0.5) p.13 says that you trigger effects after maneuvering , but if you move without maneuvering the effects happen "when" you overlap. Hence the argument about order of operations.

The Pinpoint Tractor+Rotate, the debris effect, and the move when Tractored effect are all worded as being concurrent.

Notice it says that you suffer the effects of the obstacle "after resolving its [the ship's] move".

Honestly there's not point in continuing this until we hear back from the devs in the update to the forum post sometime this week.

On 10/5/2019 at 3:03 PM, FilipeFreitas said:

Notice it says that you suffer the effects of the obstacle "after resolving its [the ship's] move".

Um, are we looking at the same passage?

For the list of "while executing a maneuver" both asteroid and debris start with "After..." which makes the timing clear. If this was what we were looking at there would be no conflict and this thread would have been settled an page 1. Unfortunately if you go down to the next section it covers "While a ship is not executing a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps..." And both asteroid and debris in this list says just do it, no timing given, which means it falls in at the "while" timing. {why can't they have consistent formatting accross the same section of the same page!?} Therefore the problem is:

On 10/5/2019 at 12:24 PM, nitrobenz said:

The Pinpoint Tractor+Rotate, the debris effect, and the move when Tractored effect are all worded as being concurrent.

If any one of those three things had a trigger of "after" then there would be no argument. In my opinion, the best solution is that effects that say "do this to do that" (such as Pinpoint Array "you may gain one tractor token to perform a [rotate] action" ) should be treated as a single uninterruptible effect. But there is no current rules to back that up, just precedent taken from unrelated rules. {I was misreading the above passage, at the end of that paragraph it says in parenthesis that the obstacle effects apply "after resolving its move" so it should be a later timing point than the Pinpoint tractor and the Rotate action.}

But @SirToastsalot is right since the AMA interview said they are going to drop a mini-FAQ:

On 10/5/2019 at 4:31 PM, SirToastsalot said:

Honestly there's not point in continuing this until we hear back from the devs in the update to the forum post sometime this week.

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

Um, are we looking at the same passage?

End of page 13, the paragraph in pink.

1 hour ago, FilipeFreitas said:

End of page 13, the paragraph in pink.

... The word "after" does not appear in that paragraph.

I just tried to fix the link to the screenshot of that passage.

wait wait, you HAVE to do a BR or boost when you gain a tractor right?

23 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

wait wait, you HAVE to do a BR or boost when you gain a tractor right?

No, repositioning with tractor tokens is optional, at the choice of the person assigning the token.

3 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

... The word "after" does not appear in that paragraph.

I just tried to fix the link to the screenshot of that passage.

Are you sure you have the latest version of the Rules Reference? Because I keep checking the PDF and the word is in there.

15 minutes ago, FilipeFreitas said:

Are you sure you have the latest version of the Rules Reference? Because I keep checking the PDF and the word is in there.

Rules Reference (1.0.5) p.13, pink paragraph and ... Now I see it, in parenthesis, at the end..... 🤦‍♂️ I sure feel like an idiot for reading that a dozen times without registering the "(after resolving its move, if applicable)".

That clears it up for me, cut and dry. The stress is received at a separate, later, trigger from the other two items and so will not block the rotate action regardless of whether the tractor move or the rotate action finishes first.

Thank you, @FilipeFreitas , for bearing with me.

Here we are.

Quote

Q: After a Nantex- class starfighter executes its maneuver, if it uses its Pinpoint Tractor Array ship ability to assign a tractor token to itself so that it can rotate its turret arc, and then it barrel rolls itself over a debris field as a result of becoming tractored, giving it a stress token, how does this resolve?

A: After a Nantex -class starfighter executes its maneuver, it has the option to add an ability in the queue with the effect of "gain 1 tractor token to perform a <rotate> action."

When this ability resolves, the Nantex -class starfighter pays the cost ("gain 1 tractor token") to resolve this effect. The Nantex -class starfighter gains 1 tractor token, then performs the rotate action. Note that it does not resolve the game effect of becoming tractored (which triggers after the first time a ship becomes tractored each round) until after it fully resolves the ability by completing the rotate action.

Once the ability is fully resolved, the game effect that triggers after a ship becomes tractored is applied to the Nantex -class starfighter (before any other abilities on the queue are resolved), prompting the Nantex -class starfighter's player to move it, if they desire. If they do and this movement takes the Nantex -class starfighter onto a debris cloud, it resolves the effects of moving through or overlapping the debris cloud, including gaining 1 stress token.

Finally, any other abilities on the queue are then resolved in order.

Key take away : Note that it does not resolve the game effect of becoming tractored (which triggers after the first time a ship becomes tractored each round) until after it fully resolves the ability by completing the rotate action.