36 minutes ago, muzhyou said:

Yup, Sunny's ability is an ability that modifies dice, and the time window when it can trigger is the key that we are talking about.

In the text, we find "after you roll or reroll your dice", which means it may be triggered "after you roll your dice" - during the roll attack/defense dice step rightly before the (opponent) modify attack/defense dice step, or may be triggered "after you reroll your dice" - during your modify attack/defense dice step, which is definitely not a continuous time period with your roll attack/defense dice step.

That's why I prefer to say Sunny could trigger her ability twice in one attack.

Besides, I think the answer to the question you are curious about is no, she cannot trigger several times during the modify defense dice step, because the "Once per oppotunity" rule and her modify dice step is a continuous single time window, which means there is only one oppotunity for her to trigger her ability once.

please note the "after you roll dice"-wording, which is very similar to sunny. some other tidbits:


under Dice Modification, page 10:

under Timing, page 19:


hence, dice modification while attacking or defending always takes place during the respective modify dice steps.

i agree that sunny shouldn't trigger more than once per opportunity, though. otherwise they could have written "roll and reroll your dice" instead of "roll or reroll your dice" on her card.

still, none of this is sufficiently clear, i'm afraid.

FWIW, I think Sunny' s ability triggers once per attack or once per defense for one simple reason. OR. The ability reads …roll or reroll, not roll and reroll.

I could be wrong. There's are numerous examples of BADLY worded abilities but I don't think this is one of them.

Ninja'd!

I think the two above answers sound the most compelling. Besides, wouldn’t an “and” interpretation make her waaaay better than a 27 point squadron ought to be? She’s already nice for the price, I think. I know that isn’t a “rules argument,” but it might signal design intent.

An "and" wouldn't make sense, grammatically speaking. "After you roll and reroll" means you must do both to trigger the ability, which is redundant, since Sunny can't reroll her dice unless she's already rolled them.

@meffo Thanks a lot for remind me to check the timing and FAQ part of the RR. I then cannot stop to thinking that FFG may made a mistake in the FAQ - this will be discuss later.

Anyway, I come to agree that Sunny can only trigger once in one attack, due to another explanation.

Here is the part of timing in PP19 of the RR:

And here is Sunny's pilot ability text:

While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

Let's take it to the (Timing ∩ Condition) ⊃ Effect.

Effect = E: You may add 1 matching result.

Condition = C: If you have the same result on each of your dice.

None of us have any question doubting these, while the timing is quite complex.

As I thought,

Timing = T1 ∩ T2

T1: While you defend or perform an attack.

T2: After you roll or reroll your dice.

T1 and T2 combine to restrict Sunny to have only one opportunity to trigger her ability in one attack.

However, at this point, it is only clear that how many times Sunny can trigger her ability in one attack, but when she can trigger it is still a question to me - especially after I read the FAQ for Han Solo by FFG.

Here is the Q&A for Han Solo [Rebel, Modified YT-1300] (RR, PP 33):

As I understood, it is saying that in an attack, Han should trigger his ability to reroll the dice during the Modify Dice step rightly after the opponent, rather than immediately after his dice roll - which, contradicts the determination of "After" (The effect resolves immediately following the time specified) in the paragraph of Timing (PP 19).

I agree that Han's reroll is not a Reroll but a dice modification, and what I cannot agree is that it triggers during the Modify Dice step - shouldn't it triggers immediately after rolling dice, rightly during the Roll Dice step and before the Modify Dice step.

So here comes my question:

Should an ability be triggered in a timing window according to the terms used in the card text, or should it be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved?

In Sunny's case, the answer to the question may greatly affect how we resolve the following scenario:

Sunny with no focus token in range 1 of Serissu defends an attack from Lieutenant Kestal[Imperial, TIE/ag Aggressor] who equipped Juke and is evading. Sunny gains 3 evade results from her defence dice rolling.

If she can trigger her ability immediately after her dice rolling during the Roll Dice step, she may then have 4 evade results - 1 of them may be changed to eyeball result by Juke and be cancelled by Lieutenant Kestal's pilot ability afterwards - and finally Sunny may have 3 evade results in this attack.

If she can only trigger her ability during the Modify Dice step because her ability is a dice modification, Lieutenant Kestal may use Juke to change 1 of the evade results to an eyeball result and decide not to use his pilot ability - that means, in order to trigger her ability, Sunny must reroll the eyeball result and get an evade reult again to have the same result on each of her dice - as I understood.

Maybe there is something wrong in this case, but the question does trouble me.

Should an ability be triggered in a timing window according to the terms used in the card text, or should it be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved?

If an ability should be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved, does that means ability like Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls is not resolved in aftermath of the Execute Maneuver step but in the Perform Action step? Thus, ships fully executed a maneuver and moved through or overlaped an asteroid cannot trigger an ability like Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls?

Quote

Should an ability be triggered in a timing window according to the terms used in the card text, or should it be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved?

If an ability should be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved, does that means ability like Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls is not resolved in aftermath of the Execute Maneuver step but in the Perform Action step? Thus, ships fully executed a maneuver and moved through or overlaped an asteroid cannot trigger an ability like Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls?

No. Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls happen before the Perform Action step and are not affected by skipping your perform action step.

Dice modification during an attack is governed by specific rules, which is why all attack/defense dice modification moves there unless the trigger explicitly defines a different timing (e.g. Reinforce). These interactions are specific to dice mods and do not create new timing windows or rearrange other ones. In other words, it's not a precedent to follow outside of dice modification.

9 hours ago, muzhyou said:

@meffo Thanks a lot for remind me to check the timing and FAQ part of the RR. I then cannot stop to thinking that FFG may made a mistake in the FAQ - this will be discuss later.

Anyway, I come to agree that Sunny can only trigger once in one attack, due to another explanation.

Here is the part of timing in PP19 of the RR:

And here is Sunny's pilot ability text:

While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

Let's take it to the (Timing ∩ Condition) ⊃ Effect.

Effect = E: You may add 1 matching result.

Condition = 😄 If you have the same result on each of your dice.

None of us have any question doubting these, while the timing is quite complex.

As I thought,

Timing = T1 ∩ T2

T1: While you defend or perform an attack.

T2: After you roll or reroll your dice.

T1 and T2 combine to restrict Sunny to have only one opportunity to trigger her ability in one attack.

However, at this point, it is only clear that how many times Sunny can trigger her ability in one attack, but when she can trigger it is still a question to me - especially after I read the FAQ for Han Solo by FFG.

Here is the Q&A for Han Solo [Rebel, Modified YT-1300] (RR, PP 33):

As I understood, it is saying that in an attack, Han should trigger his ability to reroll the dice during the Modify Dice step rightly after the opponent, rather than immediately after his dice roll - which, contradicts the determination of "After" (The effect resolves immediately following the time specified) in the paragraph of Timing (PP 19).

I agree that Han's reroll is not a Reroll but a dice modification, and what I cannot agree is that it triggers during the Modify Dice step - shouldn't it triggers immediately after rolling dice, rightly during the Roll Dice step and before the Modify Dice step.

So here comes my question:

Should an ability be triggered in a timing window according to the terms used in the card text, or should it be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved?

In Sunny's case, the answer to the question may greatly affect how we resolve the following scenario:

Sunny with no focus token in range 1 of Serissu defends an attack from Lieutenant Kestal[Imperial, TIE/ag Aggressor] who equipped Juke and is evading. Sunny gains 3 evade results from her defence dice rolling.

If she can trigger her ability immediately after her dice rolling during the Roll Dice step, she may then have 4 evade results - 1 of them may be changed to eyeball result by Juke and be cancelled by Lieutenant Kestal's pilot ability afterwards - and finally Sunny may have 3 evade results in this attack.

If she can only trigger her ability during the Modify Dice step because her ability is a dice modification, Lieutenant Kestal may use Juke to change 1 of the evade results to an eyeball result and decide not to use his pilot ability - that means, in order to trigger her ability, Sunny must reroll the eyeball result and get an evade reult again to have the same result on each of her dice - as I understood.

Maybe there is something wrong in this case, but the question does trouble me.

Should an ability be triggered in a timing window according to the terms used in the card text, or should it be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved?

If an ability should be triggered in the respective timing window in which its type of effect is commonly resolved, does that means ability like Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls is not resolved in aftermath of the Execute Maneuver step but in the Perform Action step? Thus, ships fully executed a maneuver and moved through or overlaped an asteroid cannot trigger an ability like Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls?

i appreciate your straight forward interpretation. this really shows why the rules are not perfect, since we've needed to make additional interpretations from a number of abilities and interactions in the game to come to a conclusion for how the rules actually work. sad as it is, FFGs game designers does not have as good skills in writing technical english as they have excellent design skills. fortunately, good game design appeals to good gamers - and that has resulted in this excellent community, where we help each other interpret the rules and how they should work for the game to function as well as possible. we cannot assume to understand the intention of how things should work, but we have to try our best to come to a consensus of how rules are intended. pure RAW (rules as written) doesn't always function properly, so in some cases we need discussions to agree on how some effects work according to RAI (rules as intended).

every other ability and effect in the game definitely functions according to your interpretation of the rules on timing, but dice mods while attacking or defending is an exception to this, as @Maui. outlines above. that being said, there hasn't been a clarification from FFG on how sunny bounder works, which is definitely needed, especially in light of the scenario you describe with kestal equipped with juke attacking sunny. there are a lot of questions that arise from that scenario that we don't have good answers to.

according to our current interpretation with all dice mods happening during the respective modify dice mods, kestal will mod first when attacking sunny, allowing juke to be used to change one of the naturally rolled evade results to a focus. we then have to ask ourselves whether kestal could spend a focus to cancel the focus result, or what timing kestal's pilot ability would have, since cancelling a result is not a dice modification. it would then be sunny's turn to mod dice. if kestal had juked, all of the resluts would no longer be the same - and in that case sunny wouldn't be able to add a result. if kestal would have cancelled the focus result, the results would be the same and sunny would be able to add a result.

certainly not a clear cut interpretation of the interaction by any stretch of the imagination. it's not good when abilities don't work as they're written. it makes me want to agree with your interpretation of sunny adding a result as soon as dice has been rolled. that would still leave the problem of sunny getting another opportunity to add a result during the modify dice step, since adding a dice is a dice modification. of course, sunny wouldn't be able to do this unless all the results were still the same, but in most cases it would work nicely, since your opponent modding your dice is not very common at all. an interpretation that sunny's ability happens straight after dice has been rolled - and it cannot be used during the modify dice step is also acceptable.

the biggest problem will all of this is that i don't see any of these interpretation to be 100% reliable or easy to understand when just reading the cards.

i really don't want to make this a discussion about the power level of sunny or juke, what their costs are and how viable they are to include in a list according to any of the above interpretations, since that is not a rules question. i think both juke and sunny are well worth paying for no matter how this interaction works.

from a practical perspective, i'm afraid i have to 100% agree with @Maui. (as is often the case), since dice mods when attacking or defending always happens during the modify dice steps. i also think that it's best to view ketal's ability to trigger during the modify dice step, even if it isn't a modification. i'll happily view it as a mod that's not a mod, just like we've had to view han solos reroll as a mod that's not a reroll.

and oh yeah, of course full throttle and fine tuned controls 100% works after executing a maneuver, before the perform action step. just like "does all include 0?", the timing of dice modification while attacking or defending is an exception to how large parts of the rules normally works.

On 4/10/2020 at 9:40 AM, Stoneface said:

FWIW, I think Sunny' s ability triggers once per attack or once per defense for one simple reason. OR. The ability reads …roll or reroll, not roll and reroll.

I could be wrong. There's are numerous examples of BADLY worded abilities but I don't think this is one of them.

Ninja'd!

I'll nitpick. I don't think there's necessarily a reason to treat this as an exclusive rather than inclusive OR . It's one of those words which can work two ways.

• I'm not sure if I'll be dead or alive by the end of the pandemic.
  • Exclusive or . There can't be alive and dead at the same time.
• After the pandemic, I think I'll go to a salon to dye my hair or get a different style of haircut.
  • Inclusive or . Some of the time, if I dye my hair, I'll have gotten a new kind of haircut, too. It could be one, or the other, or both, and the word "or" represents an uncertainty.
  • I'd argue that it's more likely for Sunny to be inclusive rather than exclusive, since rolling and rerolling dice aren't exclusive events. Indeed, a reroll cannot happen exclusive of a roll--the roll has to happen for there to be any dice to reroll.

That said, I don't think "inclusive or" necessarily proves Sunny can trigger multiple times. There's still some ambiguity on Sunny whether the timing is "while" or "after." I think there are sound arguments on both sides, prefer the timing being "after" thus Sunny can trigger multiple times. Tooting* my own horn, I really like my previous post on this and various timings. It has with fancy C O L O R S !

But I strongly feel that that "OR vs AND" doesn't end it. Particularly since, with @Maui. I don't think AND would make sense.

* Toot?

Many thanks to both of you @Maui. @meffo .

Neither do I want to make this a discussion about the power level of pilots' abilities.

4 hours ago, Maui. said:

No. Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls happen before the Perform Action step and are not affected by skipping your perform action step.

Dice modification during an attack is governed by specific rules, which is why all attack/defense dice modification moves there unless the trigger explicitly defines a different timing (e.g. Reinforce). These interactions are specific to dice mods and do not create new timing windows or rearrange other ones. In other words, it's not a precedent to follow outside of dice modification.

I do understand how Full Throttle and Fine-tuned Controls work presently, and what I do feel confused is during which timing window Sunny could trigger her once-in-one-attack ability, the Roll Dice step or the Modify Dice step.

I've read the Dice Modification part and the Timing Part, as well as the Q&A for Han Solo's ability, stilling finding these contradict to each others.

As I understood, "After..." is a term strong enough to creat a different timing window that breaks the common steps, and therefore Sunny's ability could be a dice modification triggered in the Roll Dice step if the player chooses to use it rightly after the naturally dice rolling - ability triggered after rerolling is still in the timing window of common Modify Dice step.

This view may be weak, so I think a do need help from FFG here.

Anyway, thanks for all.

I think the big question comes down to, what is the specific timing trigger on Sunny Bounder? Which "opportunity" can she take advantage of "once per opportunity?" Is it...

1. "While you defend or perform an attack?"
2. Or is it, "after you roll or reroll your dice?"

(Pilot Card for reference again)

3 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I think the big question comes down to, what is the specific timing trigger on Sunny Bounder? Which "opportunity" can she take advantage of "once per opportunity?" Is it...

1. "While you defend or perform an attack?"
2. Or is it, "after you roll or reroll your dice?"

I vote #2: trigger is roll or reroll, Sunny can be multiple times in an attack. Unlike some rules questions, I think #1 has a sound argument, but I think #2 is stronger.

19 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I think the big question comes down to, what is the specific timing trigger on Sunny Bounder? Which "opportunity" can she take advantage of "once per opportunity?" Is it...

1. "While you defend or perform an attack?"
2. Or is it, "after you roll or reroll your dice?"

(Pilot Card for reference again)

I think this a the root of the question - which of the two timing statements is the one that sets the limitation.

My interpretation is that "while you defend or perform an attack" is less about limiting the ability in terms of the once per opportunity, and more about limiting it to the combat phase. While there are no specific advantages gained from using the ability after flying over an asteroid/gas cloud/debris or any other non-combat triggers, this seems like a safety net to prevent any potential (imagine Sunny with Rebel Lando crew rolling double evade for example).

The "after rolling or rerolling dice" is the once per opportunity trigger in my mind. This means the ability triggers after the initial roll and after any reroll. While this could make Sunny crazy good with enough reroll potential, the odds are not in his favor. If I ever see it I will congratulate my opponent and enjoy the fact that I saw a once in a lifetime event (like my Lambds that rolled 4 nattie evades in a 1e epic match).

21 hours ago, SwampyCr said:

My interpretation is that "while you defend or perform an attack" is less about limiting the ability in terms of the once per opportunity, and more about limiting it to the combat phase.

Agreed. This is so Sunny doesn't use her ability like Rebel Han doesn't for pretty much anything. There aren't any reroll opportunities that come to mind that would be advantageous, but it does future proof.

On 4/11/2020 at 9:28 AM, theBitterFig said:

But I strongly feel that that "OR vs AND" doesn't end it.

Yeah, the "or" argument isn't swaying me. The crux of the argument seems to lie in whether we consider "while you defend or perform an attack" the timing window or "after you roll or reroll your dice" the timing window. Unfortunately, I think this is up to interpretation until FFG makes a call. However, since Sunny is such a niche piece and her ability doesn't trigger often, it won't get enough limelight to draw their attention.