I didn't assume anyone does that. Why do people always assume that because I challenge one assumption, I hold the complete opposite assumption?

I try to assume as little as possible, and keep open to multiple possibilities until I see evidence that indicates which one is correct.

4 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

So, looking at the numbers, both in the set and in the various subsets, there are some things to note:

There are 9 distinct cards in Cap's Signature cards. I guess there will be 1 Ally, there are at least 2 Upgrades (the Shield and one more with 2 copies), at least 2 Events with 2-of (Shield Block and Shield Toss). Between the probable Ally and Shield Block, there are 2 different cards: 1 2-of, 1 3-of, probably Events. Between Shield Toss and said shield, there will be 2 1-of cards, probably either Support or Upgrade.

The 17 Leadership cards are 11 different ones. If we guess that Avengers Assemble! is the first Event, then there are 4 Allies. After that there are 6 different cards making up the next 10. That's either 2 3-ofs and 4 1-ofs; or 1 3-of, 2 2-of and 3 1-of. I suspect that Power of Leadership will be in with 2 copies.

There's only 8 Basic cards. That is most probably 2 3-ofs (including Honorary Avenger) and 2 1-ofs, which I reckon will include either Energy or Strength.

Oh, and there's probably 59 cards total in the pack, made up of 34 different cards, of which maybe 3 or 4 will be reprints of 2 or 3 different cards.

Iirc the stream gave the breakdown;

3x of every non unique. 1x of the uniques, and the shield comes with the new term, Restricted (only 2 per player)

Cap's Cards

Cards are ordered by Aspect First. The Aspects are in alphabetical when not in the Hero deck. Second is Type: Hero, Ally, Event, Resource, Support, Upgrade. Finally in alphabetical order within type.

Shield Block is the first known card, 5th unique in the pack, 7th card in Cap's set, or 5|7. Shield Throw is 6|9. So we know that at least Shield Throw or Shield Block is 2x. When FFG previews cards that have different numbers in a set, they don't always show the earliest one. So there is no way to tell whether cap 8 is Block or Throw.

Captain America's Shield is 9|13. It is unique so only 1 copy. There is only room for 1 unique card with 2 copies after it. There are 2 unique cards between the Shield and Shield Throw, and 3 cards in the set. Every other Hero has at least 1 unique support, so we are likely getting 1 here. There is also a possible 3rd unique upgrade that comes before the Shield alphabetically. If not, an event.

Before shield block are 3 unique cards, and 6 cards in Cap's set. 2|1 is going to be an ally for sure. 3|2 could be a second ally. No hero has had 2 allies so far, but no hero has had an ally ability yet. Unique card 4 is definitely going to be an event.

I see the following as most likely:

1 ally ( Bucky ); 2 second ally; 3-5 event; 6-7 Shield Block; 8-9 Shield Throw; 10-11 Event; 12 Support; 13 Captain America's Shield; 14-15 upgrade.

If 2 is an event, it probably has 3 as a second copy. There is a lot of wiggle room with the events for exact number of copies. But I expect probably 4 events, 2 allies, 2 upgrades, and a support.

6 hours ago, Supertoe said:

I still can't believe they're doing reprints. It's lazy and devalues the product. You don't need to reprint cards to make a deck playable out of the box. If you want more 2-resource cards, just make new ones, or since if you're playing the game, someone already owns all the neutrals, just use their's.

I disagree. You can’t make new 2-resource cards because deck-builders could use the old and the new card and have insane decks.

It is rather a good news because theses hero packs are not just “playable” but already optimized (a bit) and enjoyable decks.

If you don’t like at all the deckbuilding part of the game, it adds a lot of value to this game because you can try the hardest challenges with some chances of success (and fun).

3 hours ago, Supertoe said:

Really though? I imagine most people would deckbuild, given that most LCGs require that, and most people playing this are coming from other LCGs

I recall hearing somewhere that more people only ever played out of the Core Box for LCGs than bought any expansions. We are the unusual people.

Anyway, in terms of working out what's in the set, that's irrelevant compared to the stated aims of FFG - make the Hero packs playable out of the box.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Iirc the stream gave the breakdown;

3x of every non unique. 1x of the uniques, and the shield comes with the new term, Restricted (only 2 per player)

I thought it was 3x every new non-unique. It was discussed that one of the advantages of putting in reprints occasionally was the ability to include less than a full play-set if it suited the deck.

Note that Restricted is an in-play limit, not a deckbuilding limit.

4 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

Cap's Cards

Cards are ordered by Aspect First. The Aspects are in alphabetical when not in the Hero deck. Second is Type: Hero, Ally, Event, Resource, Support, Upgrade. Finally in alphabetical order within type.

Shield Block is the first known card, 5th unique in the pack, 7th card in Cap's set, or 5|7. Shield Throw is 6|9. So we know that at least Shield Throw or Shield Block is 2x. When FFG previews cards that have different numbers in a set, they don't always show the earliest one. So there is no way to tell whether cap 8 is Block or Throw.

Captain America's Shield is 9|13. It is unique so only 1 copy. There is only room for 1 unique card with 2 copies after it. There are 2 unique cards between the Shield and Shield Throw, and 3 cards in the set. Every other Hero has at least 1 unique support, so we are likely getting 1 here. There is also a possible 3rd unique upgrade that comes before the Shield alphabetically. If not, an event.

Before shield block are 3 unique cards, and 6 cards in Cap's set. 2|1 is going to be an ally for sure. 3|2 could be a second ally. No hero has had 2 allies so far, but no hero has had an ally ability yet. Unique card 4 is definitely going to be an event.

I see the following as most likely:

1 ally ( Bucky ); 2 second ally; 3-5 event; 6-7 Shield Block; 8-9 Shield Throw; 10-11 Event; 12 Support; 13 Captain America's Shield; 14-15 upgrade.

If 2 is an event, it probably has 3 as a second copy. There is a lot of wiggle room with the events for exact number of copies. But I expect probably 4 events, 2 allies, 2 upgrades, and a support.

Note also that Falcon is card no 11 of the set, meaning that 14-15 need to both be the same card, number 10 of the set.

Leadership & Basic

17 total leadership cards. Starting with Falcon at 11, and ending by 24, likely by 20.

Falcon is the first Leadership card as an ally. So no allies that come before him in the alphabet. Avengers Assemble is likely the first event, so that gives 4 allies. Each of these is probably unique. We haven't seen a non-unique ally yet, it is unclear if those fit with their current design philosophy. So that is 17-4=13 remainder. We will be getting full playsets, so Avengers Assemble takes out 3 more, leaving us with 10.

We likely get at least 2 more Events with 3 copies. That leaves 4 cards with resources, supports, and upgrades. Avengers Tower was mentioned in the video, that could be a unique support. Then I think we get an upgrade.

11 Falcon; 12 ally; 13 ally; 14 ally; 15 Avengers Assemble; 16 event; 17 event; 18 Avengers Tower; 19 Upgrade.

Honorary Avenger is 25, and likely the only basic upgrade. 3 copies out of 8, leaving 5 cards. Coincidentally we need 5 unique cards. I am thinking Avengers Mansion, Nick Fury, Strength, Genius, and Energy. Each at 1 copy.

20 Nick Fury; 21 Energy; 22 Genius; 23 Strength; 24 Avengers Mansion; 25 Honorary Avenger.

Obligation and Nemesis form cards 26-30:
26 Man out of Time; 27 Scheme; Baron Zemo; Encounter card times 2; Encounter card.

31 Aggression; 32 Followed; 33 Expert Defense; 34 an extra Basic.

As for reprints. It would be boring to get Strength-but-different for the 8th time. Just printing Strength when needed conserves deck space and prevents deck builders from breaking decks.

So what if 2-5 cards are reprints. Would you not buy a 55 card pack? Lot of times you would buy a pack and not use something. Not every card in every pack is going to be used by you. Someone who doesn't play Protection won't care about Expert Defense. They don't call it a rip off.

It helps make the game accessible out of the pack, which is good for picking up new players. You can take an old deck, crack this new one and play with someone new without forcing them to deckbuild. They just grab the pack and play.

And yes, the Resources are relatively important for deck building. They are how you pay for good cards easier. they are twice as efficient as normal cards and worth it.

5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I recall hearing somewhere that more people only ever played out of the Core Box for LCGs than bought any expansions. We are the unusual people.

I beleive that could very well be true. But reprints wouldn't affect those people.

I think everyone is buying into the "Myth of the Casual". For whatever reason, online communities like to perpetuate the myth that all games are supported by vast hoards of casuals, who buy only occasional product, and are afraid to do any significant deckbuilding or try anything too different with their decks, or in competitive games they can't build good decks, because they "just play on the kitchen table with their buds". Meanwhile, the "elite" on the forums are the only "true" players, and they are the only ones who understand the secret to the meta and good decks.

The fact of the matter is that the only difference between a casual who doesn't do events or forums and the people on this forum is that there is no difference. If anything, casuals are even more creative with their decks, because they don't have the pressure of a meta pushing down on them.

I am not jazzed about reprints but i do believe this is an attempt to make the game more casual friendly like Ashes or Summoner Wars. I kinda wished Caleb had announced yeah they were reprinting card designs but those reprinted cards will have thematically sourced art so you can play the doc strange version of Genius or the Captain America version of Genius. That way they dont need to make a unique but redundant card design, they still give the deck a preconstructed functionality but the card isnt completely wasted for people willing to deck build. The 2x resource neutrals in particular are kinda worthless if they reprint them and you have a core set unless you never pull apart these preconstructed decks. Some people will play that way I'm sure. Though as someone who wont be i am worried about how many of these we will see each release. Caleb says not many in the stream but not a number.

Other than that i am super jazzed for the game. Captain America looks great.

ADD: if the playmat was just the background art i would be all over it. That foreground art of cap jumping toward gunfire is way too thick and the pose is too 90s for me. The background art is all fantastic though so its a shame that foreground art dominates the mat. The other mats they’ve previewed all look great IMO

15 hours ago, Supertoe said:

Ugh, reprints? Gonna have to reconsider this.

Really why?

I’d have preferred no reprints, but I don’t really care about a few of the aim is making it easy to just pick up and play.

I definitely know people who would play LCGs but for the deck building aspect, so it isn’t so surprising that they’d try and design this in a way that is easier to get into.

6 hours ago, player4273900 said:

I disagree. You can’t make new 2-resource cards because deck-builders could use the old and the new card and have insane decks.

It is rather a good news because theses hero packs are not just “playable” but already optimized (a bit) and enjoyable decks.

If you don’t like at all the deckbuilding part of the game, it adds a lot of value to this game because you can try the hardest challenges with some chances of success (and fun).

You can make a new resource card that doesn’t synergize with the prior two resource cards. Plus, as has been argued and will be proven as the game goes along, the two resource cards in the core are not necessary for an optimal deck. As the card pool grows, they are going to be one of the cards cut.

They provide zero value. Players that don’t want to deckbuild need a complete precon deck. The inclusion of these reprinted cards is not necessary at all to have a precon deck.

35 minutes ago, gokubb said:

the two resource cards in the core are not necessary for an optimal deck.

No.

43 minutes ago, gokubb said:

You can make a new resource card that doesn’t synergize with the prior two resource cards. Plus, as has been argued and will be proven as the game goes along, the two resource cards in the core are not necessary for an optimal deck. As the card pool grows, they are going to be one of the cards cut.

They provide zero value. Players that don’t want to deckbuild need a complete precon deck. The inclusion of these reprinted cards is not necessary at all to have a precon deck.

And again, someone you're playing with has to own those 2-resource cards. So even if you're playing "out of the deck", is it really that hard to shuffle 3-5 more cards into your deck?

They could've just had extra copies of the "power of" cards in the core, this core was pretty light on cards considering the cost, that way there'd be extras anyway.

2 hours ago, Supertoe said:

And again, someone you're playing with has to own those 2-resource cards. So even if you're playing "out of the deck", is it really that hard to shuffle 3-5 more cards into your deck?

They could've just had extra copies of the "power of" cards in the core, this core was pretty light on cards considering the cost, that way there'd be extras anyway.

Now you are relying on someone to drag around their entire set of owned cards. The whole point of this design is you walk in to your FLGS and see 2 people playing a game. You think it looks cool and you want to sit down and give it a try but you are not looking to invest that much money just to get started. No problem! Just go to the shelf, pick your favorite hero, buy his pack, and for $15 you can sit down and join the group WITHOUT relying on anything else other that what is in the pack you just bought.

1 hour ago, pstalker said:

Now you are relying on someone to drag around their entire set of owned cards. The whole point of this design is you walk in to your FLGS and see 2 people playing a game. You think it looks cool and you want to sit down and give it a try but you are not looking to invest that much money just to get started. No problem! Just go to the shelf, pick your favorite hero, buy his pack, and for $15 you can sit down and join the group WITHOUT relying on anything else other that what is in the pack you just bought.

Again though, how likely is that, really?

And also again, even without the reprint cards, that deck would be passable enough for someone who just went "oh this game looks cool".

Once that player is like "hey I like this game", and goes and buys cores and expansions, now they're gonna be mad about the reprints too.

Yeah that's a virtue of the idea. It makes the whole thing way more casual friendly if a new player doesn't need to worry about buying past products to make a functional deck for a hero. They just pick up Captain America and start playing with people. Every hero pack is effectively an AGOT starter deck. Though it comes with a downside to the majority of us who buys a pack then stores their player cards together for deck building. It will be annoying to have a ton of cards that are essentially worthless cluttering up your collection. So hopefully they keep this to a minimum and find more creative ways to make decks rather than always relying on a few existing staples. Also it's a bit disappointing because these co-op player card pools grow slow so spending slots in a hero packs like this is kinda deflating. More an issue early on than later in the game's life where the player pool has matured.

This is especially worrying for things like the Genius or Nick Fury card where a redundant copy is literally worthless to you considering it's a 1x include and you have more than enough in the core set to support a 4 player game. On the other hand you get another play set of Avengers Mansion or Uppercut and then you can feel kind good about that since redundant play sets of that can fit into multiple decks in a single game. So it's not entirely wasted. I'd be more fine with the ladder and less fine with the former though I think we can expect the former considering the two resource neutral cards came up in the stream.

Yeah, I guess it does depend on what the reprint is. A card like one of the neutral resources or Nick Fury would be infuriating to get, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to get one more set of the "power of" cards. Still, if this continues, we're gonna end up with hundreds of useless cards.

1 hour ago, Supertoe said:

Still, if this continues, we're gonna end up with hundreds of useless cards.

The stream did seem to suggest that reprints will be few and far between. I certainly don't get the impression we're going to be getting hundreds of them.

On a more positive note I think the Avengers Assemble card is fantastic and I love that it's a leadership card and not a Cap only card or a neutral. Also Shield Toss looks super fun in a scenario with lots of minions. The art on Captain America's Shield is fantastic. Also it's confirmed that Sam is Falcon in this game at least at first. I like him being introduced as his own super hero first rather than as Captain America first if they do a version of him as cap.

They showed us Sam as a Leadership ally, which is interesting. I'm betting Bucky is his unique ally. I like that. I think it makes more sense for Sam to go in other hero decks than Bucky if you have to pick between the two. Caleb mentioned Sharon Carter as well in the stream. I wonder if we'll see her in this pack as well.

31 minutes ago, Janaka said:

The stream did seem to suggest that reprints will be few and far between. I certainly don't get the impression we're going to be getting hundreds of them.

I believe Supertoe is concerned with them accumulating over time. Though if we get 3-6 reprints per hero deck and we get 3-4 hero decks per year that's 9-24 reprinted cards per year. Then if the game lasts 5 years which is conservative (it will probably last much longer unless they lose the license) we'll see 45-120 reprints. Lord of The Rings is coming up on 9 years so that would be 81-216 cards reprinted in this game at the same point. So 100's is hyperbolic sure, but not too far off depending on how restrained they are per pack with reprints. That's not counting these larger box campaign expansions if they also will have reprints in them. I was assuming no, but they didn't confirm that.

Personally I'm hoping for 0-3 reprints per deck. Also I'm hoping for them to be alternate arts, but I'm not expecting that.

I do think it's a nice idea to not assume any particular player bought the core set. That's sort of the Keyforge's approach and that worked well. You can still play Keyforge without the core set. Just proxy all the tokens. I guess if you proxy tokens in this game then all you need is a hero and villain pack really to play the game. I guess you need the standard encounter set too. I assume you'll need to slot that in all the villain decks. Is that all you really need from the core set?

21 hours ago, Brekekekiwi said:

I think people overestimate how populous the proportion of people this keen and discussing on boards are.

I bet the number of people who buy a hero pack and use it as is at home with their buddies is larger than those who deck build.

It has already been said, but reprinting cards does nothing to make decks "viable". That's their excuse to sell us the same product again.

I don't get why people were so vocal against FFG to "force" players to get multiple cores if they wanted full playsets of every card (and by doing so, getting a bunch of extras) but are ok with getting reprints. They are selling us that controversial 2nd core set extras piece by piece now, and we don't have a choice, as they are mixing new product with old one. I could skip the infamous 2nd core before without missing any content, but now I'll be forced to get a 6th crappy Strenght card if I want to get the new hero deck. This is defenetely 100 times more annoying. Now I can't be "happy" about the full-playsets-in-one-core deal, as they are trying to trick me with selling me the same stuff again.

17 hours ago, player4273900 said:

I disagree. You can’t make new 2-resource cards because deck-builders could use the old and the new card and have insane decks.

Resource cards are not that great, let alone mandatory. Don't overhype them for no reason.

23 hours ago, Supertoe said:

Really though? I imagine most people would deckbuild, given that most LCGs require that, and most people playing this are coming from other LCGs

When I first got my friends into Arkham, I built all the decks. We are about to start a new campaign (#3), my friends will build their decks using my collection. I have a friend who owns the core game and Dunwich expansion, and he still insist on using my collection to build from because it is bigger. I can guarantee that the same thing will happen with this game. I will invest, and everyone will build from my collection. Get over yourself. Not all players should be heavily invested

2 hours ago, xchan said:

It has already been said, but reprinting cards does nothing to make decks "viable". That's their excuse to sell us the same product again.

I don't get why people were so vocal against FFG to "force" players to get multiple cores if they wanted full playsets of every card (and by doing so, getting a bunch of extras) but are ok with getting reprints. They are selling us that controversial 2nd core set extras piece by piece now, and we don't have a choice, as they are mixing new product with old one. I could skip the infamous 2nd core before without missing any content, but now I'll be forced to get a 6th crappy Strenght card if I want to get the new hero deck. This is defenetely 100 times more annoying. Now I can't be "happy" about the full-playsets-in-one-core deal, as they are trying to trick me with selling me the same stuff again.

Resource cards are not that great, let alone mandatory. Don't overhype them for no reason.

There’s a qualitative difference between needing two cores to play a game with 4 players and needing only one.

A few Generic/class duplicates isn’t even close to being a negative on that scale.