What I'm really hoping for is a good old story of "Rokugan Clue" to wrap everything up.

Kachiko, Shoju, Sumiko, Aramoro, Yoshi, Sotorii, Ishikawa, Satoshi...……..and a bunch of other important people all in a big hall together while a Kitsuki investigator runs around explaining the sequence of events that night and ends with the big "whodunit" reveal.

1 hour ago, DGLaderoute said:

Just to be clear--Shoju was NOT bluffing when he said he'd have had her taken to Traitor's Grove if she had destroyed the edict. And she knows that, which shows the stakes of the game she's now playing with Shoju. Suffice to say that she's probably sleeping on the couch tonight...

To be fair, I could imagine that if she'd let slip she'd sent Aramoro to murder the Emerald Champion, the response would probably be much the same. Since her motivation was basically laying the groundwork for destroying the edict, and the ONLY reason she didn't destroy it was because she discovered Shoju's name was on it and therefore he (presumably) knew about it already.

2 hours ago, phillos said:

In my mind though it's the way they handled Toturi that is questionable. She brings up Toturi to Shoju but doesn't go into detail on that. I'd think that's where the real disloyalty might be found. They tried to kill Toturi even after the edict was known, and didn't confer with Shoju first.

Yes, that's the point at which she really started to go awry. She could have paused to take a breath, but at that point she was panicking more than thinking things through clearly, and continuing with the principle of "hide the bodies" rather than "what is proper procedure in this situation?" As for not telling Shoju after the fact . . . well, yeah, in her shoes I wouldn't have, either. He'd already put a literal knife to her throat, so adding "and by the way, I sent somebody to kill the Emerald Champion" would be suicide.

I disagree that she's acting first and foremost for herself, though. I do believe that Kachiko thinks what she's doing is for the greater good of both clan and empire. She's wrong about that, but, well, self-delusion: it's a thing. At that point, though, we're firmly enough into differing interpretations that I don't expect to argue anybody around to my side.

I think it's a matter of loyalty to the empire versus loyalty to the emperor that's being debated here between the two characters. Certainly that's the tact Kachiko takes when arguing with Shoju here. She believes even given the edict her plan is better for the empire. Shoju is demonstrating loyalty to the Emperor.

What about Kachiko's actions demonstrates loyalty to the empire and not a desire to grow her own power?

29 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

To be fair, I could imagine that if she'd let slip she'd sent Aramoro to murder the Emerald Champion, the response would probably be much the same. Since her motivation was basically laying the groundwork for destroying the edict, and the ONLY reason she didn't destroy it was because she discovered Shoju's name was on it and therefore he (presumably) knew about it already.

Not going to disagree. All I'm saying is that Shoju wasn't bluffing when he threatened her with the Grove. If he genuinely believed that she had done something Grove-worthy, then there'd be a tree being made ready for her.

18 minutes ago, phillos said:

I think it's a matter of loyalty to the empire versus loyalty to the emperor that's being debated here between the two characters. Certainly that's the tact Kachiko takes when arguing with Shoju here. She believes even given the edict her plan is better for the empire. Shoju is demonstrating loyalty to the Emperor.

I have serious doubts that Kachiko is sparing any thought for the welfare of the Empire. At best she is taking a quasi-narcisistic approach to it in which what she deems best for the Scorpion is ipso facto the best for the Empire.

Here is this from "The last stone played"

The new Emerald Championship would be delayed until Sotorii took the throne, an

Emperor indebted to the Scorpion. She would suggest that he simply appoint a new Emerald

Champion, of course. He would even believe it was his own idea.

It was rare that one’s duty and one’s aspirations overlapped so perfectly . As her oaths demanded,

she had protected the Hantei name.....

This is just before Kachiko, edict in hand, even bothers to read the scroll that was discovered. Up to this point all she knows is that the emperor was going to name Daisetsu. Kachiko was doing it for her, under the guise of doing her duty to protect the Hantei name. Covering up the regicide protects his name. At that moment she could have sought out Shoju and informed him of the Emperor's death, but, the moment Kachiko found out that Daisetsu would be emperor, she immediately saw the opportunity to have an emperor, Sotorii, under her thumb and went to tie up loose ends to ensure that was what happened.

She thought she had been gifted what she desired most, only to take a moment to read the scroll and find out what a massive sh!tstorm she just created.

off topic:

haha! Ishi Tonu 2, Profanity Filter 0

43 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

I have serious doubts that Kachiko is sparing any thought for the welfare of the Empire. At best she is taking a quasi-narcisistic approach to it in which what she deems best for the Scorpion is ipso facto the best for the Empire.

I do believe she is doing what she thinks is best for the empire. Though she seems to only trust herself and her clan well enough with guarding the welfare of the empire so that's of course a warped perspective. Her argument to Shoju assumes Daisetsu will be a bad emperor, but how is he different from any other prince ascending the throne. I agreed it is arrogant of her to assume she knows best in this case. Though I believe we are lead to believe her opinion was colored by her years of service under Jodan, which was punctuated by frequent examples (At least from her perspective) of him not having the favor of the heaven.

28 minutes ago, phillos said:

I do believe she is doing what she thinks is best for the empire. Though she seems to only trust herself and her clan well enough with guarding the welfare of the empire so that's of course a warped perspective. Her argument to Shoju assumes Daisetsu will be a bad emperor, but how is he different from any other prince ascending the throne. I agreed it is arrogant of her to assume she knows best in this case. Though I believe we are lead to believe her opinion was colored by her years of service under Jodan, which was punctuated by frequent examples (At least from her perspective) of him not having the favor of the heaven.

Come on Phillos……...

Her motivations are spelled out in "The last stone is played"

Daisetsu is a wild card as emperor. Sotorii has just committed regicide and is indebted to her. How she spins it to Shoju to try and justify her actions after the fact do not cancel out what her true motivations were for handling things the way she did.

Her duty and her ambition are overlapping. She can still think she's doing everything for the good of the empire. Look I don't even like Kachiko I just don't want her to get a bum wrap here.

9 minutes ago, phillos said:

Her duty and her ambition are overlapping. She can still think she's doing everything for the good of the empire. Look I don't even like Kachiko I just don't want her to get a bum wrap here.

Read the rest of the original story. She's talking about how the tedium of her daily duties lead to this fortunate opportunity. She's reveling in the fact that it's now paid off for her ambitions, while she's holding the unread edict in her hand.

She's not saying "I'm so glad my ambitions are in line with the duties I have"

She is saying "Finally, I can use the cover of "duty" to further my ambitions"

Her ambition is at odds with her duty, but, in this instance she can technically say "I helped the emperor" which is her duty. She doesn't have the empire or the emperor's well being in mind at any point in this.

It would be like a pick-pocket that feels good about helping an old lady across the street and then ripping her off.

"see i did a good thing, I kept her from potentially getting hit by a car...………….who want's to go to the bar i'm buying"

11 hours ago, phillos said:

Though I believe we are lead to believe her opinion was colored by her years of service under Jodan, which was punctuated by frequent examples (At least from her perspective) of him not having the favor of the heaven.

To be fair, she's not the only one disillusioned by Hantei Jodan's human failings.

We've yet to see

view on events. With the main goal of the Kolat being to attack the legitimacy of the Hantei dynasty..... silver platter, anyone?

(seriously, even to the point of 'Heaven declining to protect him' because the wards were drained....)

I think that Shoju has kinda of a square logic, being pragmatic and a virtuous Scorpion to the core.
Kudos to the writer for portraying that really nicely!
He knows that the Scorpion Clan will employ blackmail as a means to protecting the Empire, but he refuses to use the same means to deprive the Empire of its "rightful Emperor" (per the departed Emperor's decree). Truth be told, if he kept his mouth shut and went along with Kachiko's plan, the Scorpion Clan would've had an Emperor under their heel. However, this is not what the Clan is all about. It's not control they crave, but the safety of the Empire. In that regard, Bayushi Shoju has shown that he's a virtuous champion and dutiful to the Empire (not the Emperor's line).

Did I only notice a subtle hint of body language? When Shoju was threatening Kachiko with his blade, she told him everything but he still managed to cut her a bit. This makes me think that Shoju shows a lot of conflicting emotions. It looks like he regards her as the embodiment of his failing life (with a secretive adulteress wife plotting behind his back, estranged brother, distant son, etc...)

12 minutes ago, Theoloc said:

I think that Shoju has kinda of a square logic, being pragmatic and a virtuous Scorpion to the core.
Kudos to the writer for portraying that really nicely!
He knows that the Scorpion Clan will employ blackmail as a means to protecting the Empire, but he refuses to use the same means to deprive the Empire of its "rightful Emperor" (per the departed Emperor's decree). Truth be told, if he kept his mouth shut and went along with Kachiko's plan, the Scorpion Clan would've had an Emperor under their heel. However, this is not what the Clan is all about. It's not control they crave, but the safety of the Empire. In that regard, Bayushi Shoju has shown that he's a virtuous champion and dutiful to the Empire (not the Emperor's line).

Did I only notice a subtle hint of body language? When Shoju was threatening Kachiko with his blade, she told him everything but he still managed to cut her a bit. This makes me think that Shoju shows a lot of conflicting emotions. It looks like he regards her as the embodiment of his failing life (with a secretive adulteress wife plotting behind his back, estranged brother, distant son, etc...)

I take it as less an issue of conflicting emotions about his feelings about her so much as being forced to acknowledge that they have different goals and she is starting to act at cross purposes to his. We've been seeing the set up for that conflict from the start of the game with the differing views that he feels the Scorpion should be withdrawing from the spotlight to better fulfill their duties whereas Kachiko is pushing for them to consolidate more and more power. They've been at odds over this for a while as seen in her plan to have Aramoro placed as Emerald Champion which was stymied twice, first when Shoju had convinced the Emperor to have the traditional tournament rather then just naming Aramoro as was her preference, and then when we come to the actual tournament we have her pushing Yojiro to manipulate things so that Aramoro will win and Yojiro (admittedly under his own assumption of what Shoju would want but since he seems to have been rewarded for it we can assume that it was met with at least tacit approval) tipping off Toturi as to the plan so that it will fail.

I also don't think there is any proof that he is distant from his son, everything we've seen from the appearances of him actually suggests that they have some sort of bond as he had heard everything about Sotorii and Dairu's "duel" from his son before he and Joden were talking about it.

I don't think the cut to Kachiko was an "error" at all it was an acknowledgement that she has made mistakes and is close to overstepping her bounds and that he will not hesitate to punish her if she does.

The Winter Court decision for the Scorpion was that Shoju would turn to a Yogo to ensure that the Scorpion remain loyal.

So does the Yogo keep Kachiko in line? When Shoju realizes that Iuchi Shahai is gone as well, does he send a Kuroiban out after Daisetsu?

46 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

The Winter Court decision for the Scorpion was that Shoju would turn to a Yogo to ensure that the Scorpion remain loyal.

So does the Yogo keep Kachiko in line? When Shoju realizes that Iuchi Shahai is gone as well, does he send a Kuroiban out after Daisetsu?

"Junzo, I will need your help to keep Kachiko's faction in line. And tell your granddaughter to return with Prince Daisetsu at once. I don't care how you do it, but do it."

"As you wish, my lord." *starts rooting through library for that interesting black scroll he saw the other day; that might help*

I forgot about those choices.

Interesting! Where can we find the rest of the tournament choices that have been taken?
Personally I only remember the Shahai one and keeping Kuwanan alive.

So... do we want to talk about the ending bit? The one where Toturi wakes up after (almost) being killed and decides to die anyway so Kaede just gives up on her life. Seriously, that girl should learn how to stand up for herself instead of just letting everything fly as others will it.

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

So... do we want to talk about the ending bit? The one where Toturi wakes up after (almost) being killed and decides to die anyway so Kaede just gives up on her life. Seriously, that girl should learn how to stand up for herself instead of just letting everything fly as others will it.

Yeah you may want to re-read that ending. There is nothing specifically confirming he planned to die by the end. It seems more likely he is preparing to become Ronin for his failings. At least that's how I've read it. And Kaede's comments about she is walking the same path as him are an attempt to a) keep him from making any rash decisions; and b) acknowledgement on her part that the Meido trick she pulled has likely tied their Karma together even closer then it possibly was before.

After all if he planned to commit Seppuku he would need permission from his lord first and since as Clan Champion his lord is the Emperor he would need to speak to him first.

47 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

After all if he planned to commit Seppuku he would need permission from his lord first and since as Clan Champion is lord is the Emperor he would need to speak to him first.

Well, yes, that's the obvious way to get the neccessary Toturi/Sotorii face-off where Sotorii will deny the sepukku and isntead turn Toturi into a ronin for extra humiliation points. There will be also Sotorii making a scene and Toturi realizing that it is all ogre, of course.

I think as far as Toturi is concerned, Daisetsu is his rightful lord...after all, he wrote the edict at the former emperor's dictation. Even if the turn of events were to result in Sotorii being named emperor (which is far from certain at this point), I don't see Toturi requesting an illegitimate heir to seppuku. Maybe that will be another prompt to send him on his quest to find Daisetsu, he can't seppuku without his lord's permission.

Yeah, Toturi will leave to look up Daisetsu, planning to break the news for the boy. But ahoy, he will only find Sotorii doing Emperor-y stuff. Toturi goes WTF and crashes into Sotorii's feelings with full power. Sotorii reveals that Daisetsu is gone and Toturi's fancy scroll is treason and also useless so he can go be ronin somewhere else. Toturi goes WTF but then he realizes that everything is FUBAR and he should really leave before Sotorii decides to rather execute him on the spot. At this point Toturi might or might not come to the conclusion that Shoju and Kachiko are behind all this.

6 hours ago, Theoloc said:

Interesting! Where can we find the rest of the tournament choices that have been taken?
Personally I only remember the Shahai one and keeping Kuwanan alive.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/11/6/tales-from-the-winter-court/

Has the most recent round of choice results.