For the most part, I like how a school's curriculum can allow for techniques' rank prerequisites to be waived. Waiving other prerequisites still seems odd to me. Examples:

• A Spy or rank 3 Kakita Swordsmith can take Spin the Web, normally restricted to Kolat (awkward design, but probably not actually problematic).
• Any random samurai with the Yoriki title can take Lord Hida's Grip or Lord Shiba's Valor (this feels like a much more significant design issue).

I'm still waiting for the pdf version before buying Courts of Stone, so there may be more issues in there I haven't seen yet. At any rate, it seems very likely that as more sourcebooks come out, we're going to see more weird interactions like this.

How would you rule this? I'm tempted to just limit prerequisite waiving to rank.

42 minutes ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

For the most part, I like how a school's curriculum can allow for techniques' rank prerequisites to be waived. Waiving other prerequisites still seems odd to me. Examples:

• A Spy or rank 3 Kakita Swordsmith can take Spin the Web, normally restricted to Kolat (awkward design, but probably not actually problematic).
• Any random samurai with the Yoriki title can take Lord Hida's Grip or Lord Shiba's Valor (this feels like a much more significant design issue).

I'm still waiting for the pdf version before buying Courts of Stone, so there may be more issues in there I haven't seen yet. At any rate, it seems very likely that as more sourcebooks come out, we're going to see more weird interactions like this.

How would you rule this? I'm tempted to just limit prerequisite waiving to rank.

Be tempted to trash titles in the garbage bin, and design your own way of giving title-like rewards (status and/or abilities, advantages, disadvantages, whatever you feel like) to your PC according to what they want or what the story wants from them.

I'll just leave that there.

A title may be the worst offender right now, but I don't think this is actually a title problem. Imagine it's a problem you're having with a school. How do you fix it then?

2 hours ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

A title may be the worst offender right now, but I don't think this is actually a title problem. Imagine it's a problem you're having with a school. How do you fix it then?

any school have a problem with that? or you are speculating that it "could" happen ?

I'm saying some of us might want to find a solution other than "Don't use titles."

(though yes, the Kakita Swordsmith and Spin the Web is the only weird interaction I know of offhand)

2 hours ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

I'm saying some of us might want to find a solution other than "Don't use titles."

(though yes, the Kakita Swordsmith and Spin the Web is the only weird interaction I know of offhand)

solution is: use common sense.

cheap answer... but we cannot expect L5Rrpg to be without mistakes. small things like that can easily be GMed though. I do not think some kind of houserule is needed.

as long as something is not rendering the game unfun, or broken, or creating weird spammable loopholes... you should probably let it slide or you will definitely never finish.
my houserules were about 5 times as long before, because I was trying to fix all minor issues. i just let go... and it was for the best. keep the important parts only, the parts that makes the game more fun for your table.

6 hours ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

I'm saying some of us might want to find a solution other than "Don't use titles."

(though yes, the Kakita Swordsmith and Spin the Web is the only weird interaction I know of offhand)

The Yasuki trader in the Core Book has named preferential access to an otherwise Crane-specific Shuji, Lady Doji's decree.

Given the Yasuki's Crane heritage and the fact that the technique is specifically namechecked, I can't see that not being deliberate.

By that precedent, then, yes, preferential access on a curriculum can cross clan- or school-type prerequisites.

Equally, yes, Emerald Magistrates get cross-clan techniques. Which is kind of fitting and may also be deliberate because the Ruby Dojo has sensei from lots of different clans; the two you meet in In The Palace Of The Emerald Champion are a Dragon and a Scorpion, for example.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Yasuki trader in the Core Book has named preferential access to an otherwise Crane-specific Shuji, Lady Doji's decree.

Given the Yasuki's Crane heritage and the fact that the technique is specifically namechecked, I can't see that not being deliberate.

By that precedent, then, yes, preferential access on a curriculum can cross clan- or school-type prerequisites.

Equally, yes, Emerald Magistrates get cross-clan techniques. Which is kind of fitting and may also be deliberate because the Ruby Dojo has sensei from lots of different clans; the two you meet in In The Palace Of The Emerald Champion are a Dragon and a Scorpion, for example.

That is all fine examples of deliberate uses! Which is what it is most of the time.

A Kolat ability that allows you to create Kolat situations, for a Kakita Swordsmith, is a bit more fishy! And moooost probably not intended... But hey, one mistake here and there, edgecase, no big deal really... Use common sense.

Obviously, some titles totally break all these rules, but they are titles anyway. In other words: bad design from the get go. So at this point, also let it fly if you are willing to use titles as written... And use common sense when a technique would really not make sense for your table.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

And moooost probably not intended... But hey, one mistake here and there, edgecase, no big deal really... Use common sense.

The Kakita Swordsmith gets rank 1-4 air shuji as preferential access at rank 3, so, yes. That may have been written by someone not intending to give Spin the Web ; since the technique is in a different sourcebook rather than the core book.

Most preferential access options for techniques give you specific named techniques - there's no (or at least very little) question in that case that the choice is deliberate, and I think in the case of options in the same book you can reasonably assume they've been read end-to-end as one set.

On the other, other hand, you can create a character who is by default a member of the Kolat conspiracy. Since buying that shuji by default gives you the ability to recruit Kolat operatives, taking it means you're clearly joining or at least leaning towards joining the Kolat.

Clearly the Kakita merit a closer inspection by the Emerald Magistrates!

30 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Clearly the Kakita merit a closer inspection by the Emerald Magistrates!

Indeed lol.

Though, some small errors and irregularities are in the rules here and there... I think that it is "normal".
At least for an RPG of this size in term of rules, expecting total perfection is too utopic. (Shadowrun 6e is, sadly, way more a mess than L5R).
As long as these small bugs are obviously squashable with common sense, not a big deal.

Sure, a crazy dude could start to revise and fix all the books small mistakes on small details, but that would be an insane endeavor that wouldn't be that much worth it in term of how more fun it would really make the game.

Checking through other schools and titles:

• There aren't many weird interactions, because generally if you're given access to techniques preferentially via a curriculum, you're given a specific one, whilst an entry like 'rank 1-3 kata' will only cover stuff you could have taken anyway. In fact, every school at rank X has a curriculum entry of "Rank 1-X [Technique class]", and it's only a trio of Shadowland schools which put a preferential access diamond on that entry, which makes me think it's an error (or at least a bad decision).
• I'm not sure why the Kakita and Kitsu gets rank 1-4 and 1-5 shuji (i.e. one rank higher) with a diamond instead of rank 1-3 and 1-4 shuji without; they both have technique class access to shuji.
• The Kuni school has the excuse that they get kiho, shuji and rituals, and the preferential rank 1 kata is the only way they get the Crab Clan's signature Kata, Lord Hida's Grip.
• The exceptions I can see - where an unrestricted range of techniques is covered by a 'blanket' preferential access - are:
  • Core Rulebook
    • Kaito Shrine Keeper School - Rank 1 Air invocations, Rank 1-3 Water Invocations, Rank 1-5 Fire Invocations (The Kaito really need that preferential access to 'work' but it does mean that new invocations - other than Earth or Void - need to bear in mind their possible interaction with Sacred Arrows )
    • Emerald Magistrate - Rank 1-2 Kata (as noted, with the Magistrates being a cross-clan organisation, I've frankly no problem with this).
  • Mantis Clan
    • None - The mantis all play by the rules, obviously....
  • Emerald Empire
    • Spy title - Rank 1-5 Air Shuji (technically any spy could be a Kolat member! Actually....that doesn't feel that stupid.....They have people everywhere, after all...)
    • Yoriki title - Rank 1-3 Kata (Lord Hida's Grip might be useful if.....you're trying to arrest a drunken ogre? I guess?)
    • False Identity Disadvantage - Faking It To Make It Sidebar (this one is explicitely GM's discretion and it's the school ability not a normal technique, but could have some opportunities for abuse if you don't keep an eye on it; I'm sure there are some school abilities which really shouldn't be paired together...)
  • Shadowlands
    • Kakita Swordsmith School - Rank 1-4 Air Shuji (apparently they're all secretly Kolat too!)
    • Kitsu Medic School - Rank 1-5 Water Shuji (no specific weirdness as yet but one to bear in mind)
    • Kuni Warden School - Rank 1 Kata (Lord Shiba's Valour is an option for a Crab school)
    • The Damned Title - Rank 1-2 Kata (A lot of Crab/Phoenix crossover here...)
    • Harvester Title - Rank 1-2 Kata and Rank 1-2 Rituals (...and again...)
    • Twenty-Goblin Crab - Rank 1-2 Kata (...okay, this one is for non-crab who've joined the Crab, so at least it makes sense here!)
    • Witch Hunter - Rank 1-4 Kata and Rank 1-5 Rituals (if you take an invocation via Stolen Knowledge, anyone with the title can make a tier 1 Shikigama...)

Obviously Courts of Stone may add some more but I've not seen them yet.

26 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Checking through other schools and titles:

• There aren't many weird interactions, because generally if you're given access to techniques preferentially via a curriculum, you're given a specific one, whilst an entry like 'rank 1-3 kata' will only cover stuff you could have taken anyway. In fact, every school at rank X has a curriculum entry of "Rank 1-X [Technique class]", and it's only a trio of Shadowland schools which put a preferential access diamond on that entry, which makes me think it's an error (or at least a bad decision).
• I'm not sure why the Kakita and Kitsu gets rank 1-4 and 1-5 shuji (i.e. one rank higher) with a diamond instead of rank 1-3 and 1-4 shuji without; they both have technique class access to shuji.
• The Kuni school has the excuse that they get kiho, shuji and rituals, and the preferential rank 1 kata is the only way they get the Crab Clan's signature Kata, Lord Hida's Grip.
• The exceptions I can see - where an unrestricted range of techniques is covered by a 'blanket' preferential access - are:
  • Core Rulebook
    • Kaito Shrine Keeper School - Rank 1 Air invocations, Rank 1-3 Water Invocations, Rank 1-5 Fire Invocations (The Kaito really need that preferential access to 'work' but it does mean that new invocations - other than Earth or Void - need to bear in mind their possible interaction with Sacred Arrows )
    • Emerald Magistrate - Rank 1-2 Kata (as noted, with the Magistrates being a cross-clan organisation, I've frankly no problem with this).
  • Mantis Clan
    • None - The mantis all play by the rules, obviously....
  • Emerald Empire
    • Spy title - Rank 1-5 Air Shuji (technically any spy could be a Kolat member! Actually....that doesn't feel that stupid.....They have people everywhere, after all...)
    • Yoriki title - Rank 1-3 Kata (Lord Hida's Grip might be useful if.....you're trying to arrest a drunken ogre? I guess?)
    • False Identity Disadvantage - Faking It To Make It Sidebar (this one is explicitely GM's discretion and it's the school ability not a normal technique, but could have some opportunities for abuse if you don't keep an eye on it; I'm sure there are some school abilities which really shouldn't be paired together...)
  • Shadowlands
    • Kakita Swordsmith School - Rank 1-4 Air Shuji (apparently they're all secretly Kolat too!)
    • Kitsu Medic School - Rank 1-5 Water Shuji (no specific weirdness as yet but one to bear in mind)
    • Kuni Warden School - Rank 1 Kata (Lord Shiba's Valour is an option for a Crab school)
    • The Damned Title - Rank 1-2 Kata (A lot of Crab/Phoenix crossover here...)
    • Harvester Title - Rank 1-2 Kata and Rank 1-2 Rituals (...and again...)
    • Twenty-Goblin Crab - Rank 1-2 Kata (...okay, this one is for non-crab who've joined the Crab, so at least it makes sense here!)
    • Witch Hunter - Rank 1-4 Kata and Rank 1-5 Rituals (if you take an invocation via Stolen Knowledge, anyone with the title can make a tier 1 Shikigama...)

Obviously Courts of Stone may add some more but I've not seen them yet.

Intense breakdown sir!

The point stands that preferential access to general categories "can" open some weird options (even more so as more books are released). But, does it really require a "fix" ? Or simply applying common sense and talking with your player is enough?

The "major" concern seems that a lot of titles (courts of stone keeps the trend) open up techniques that are usually restricted to Clans/Organizations etc.
While it does make sense in some cases (Emerald Magistrate etc) a lot of the time it does not.
Titles are extra tricky since they also often open up much higher rank techniques via the preferential symbol. Which "can" in some cases, be a path to powergaming (if that even matters).

Again, it isn't that much of a big deal, especially in a game that is very "loose" on its rules and balancing and requires final judgement and interpretation by the GM a lot of the time.
You can only hope that the players are mature enough so that the discussion goes smoothly.
I would prefer a bit more tightness, especially on how the progression system is designed, and I can understand some groups could fall into some unfun arguments about different options that the GM would rather not allow. But hey... personally I can live with how it is since my players are good mates. I think we set down the rules of "common sense" pretty early on when we tackled how we wanted to deal with advantages/disadvantages.

Thanks for the breakdown, Magnus! I think the Kuni Warden school might not even be a problem with Lord Shiba's Valor, since it's rank 2.

I'm realizing that because I really like homebrew content and clan-specific content, this design issue is probably more of an issue for me than most people. And even then, Avatar is right that the fix is pretty straightforward. For me, I think it's just that the diamond icon doesn't waive clan (or other faction) specific requirements from technique groups.

46 minutes ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

I think the Kuni Warden school might not even be a problem with Lord Shiba's Valor, since it's rank 2.

That also means you can't take Lord Hida's grip either, to be fair. So you're basically stuck with 'striking as' Kata and open hand style. Which doesn't sound that great but is potentially a very powerful option paired with Kiho, which only a small handful of schools get to play around with.

7 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Sure, a crazy dude could start to revise and fix all the books small mistakes on small details, but that would be an insane endeavor that wouldn't be that much worth it in term of how more fun it would really make the game.

Are you talking about anyone specifically Avatar111?

18 minutes ago, T_Kageyasu said:

Are you talking about anyone specifically Avatar111?

Lol, yup, I have some experience with that! Though recently, I find that I quite narrowed the most problematic changes for our group, and dropped the very small adjustments that were not having major impact with the flow/fun of the game. Condition/Incapacitated/Wound system was a big culprit for us in term of cinematic experience, and iaijutsu duels to first blood being impossible to win in one strike (that I brought down to only one tiny change! Feels good!) Some more clean up is in order (opportunities are next in line, trying to have a solid reference sheet for players that doesn't require a binder) but it is getting there. The version I will have when it is all over (maybe?) Will be pretty awesome. But again! It really depends how your group is or likes things. Personally I'v heard tons of complaints about how the wound system works, iaijutsu duel works, and the overload of opportunity examples. So I am not alone there. Sharing is caring, even if only one person cares!

On 8/22/2019 at 5:46 PM, Avatar111 said:

Personally I'v heard tons of complaints about how the wound system works, iaijutsu duel works, and the overload of opportunity examples. So I am not alone there. Sharing is caring, even if only one person cares!

Yes, I still struggle with the wound system (and wanting the quintessential one strike effective duel) but I can appreciate the intentions behind their novel approach to mental and physical fatigue, even if it doesn't always play out in a sensible way.

Specifically, it's strange that bringing an opponent to incapacitated doesn't matter unless there's someone else to follow up on the attack before you can take them down next turn. It's the equivalent of being set to 1 hp, no matter the source of the preceeding damage and health at that time. In a duel it's frustrating because one opponent can incapacitate the other while simultaneously taking a critical hit (for example during a karmic strike between equally honorable samurai) enabling the incapacitated samurai to win a duel to first strike. Maybe that's an uncommon example, but it happened.

8 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

Yes, I still struggle with the wound system (and wanting the quintessential one strike effective duel) but I can appreciate the intentions behind their novel approach to mental and physical fatigue, even if it doesn't always play out in a sensible way.

Specifically, it's strange that bringing an opponent to incapacitated doesn't matter unless there's someone else to follow up on the attack before you can take them down next turn. It's the equivalent of being set to 1 hp, no matter the source of the preceeding damage and health at that time. In a duel it's frustrating because one opponent can incapacitate the other while simultaneously taking a critical hit (for example during a karmic strike between equally honorable samurai) enabling the incapacitated samurai to win a duel to first strike. Maybe that's an uncommon example, but it happened.

I appreciate a lot of the core of this game. It is the conflict chapter that is the weaker part of the system and where they should focus simple elegant fixes.

On 10/1/2019 at 7:45 PM, T_Kageyasu said:

Specifically, it's strange that bringing an opponent to incapacitated doesn't matter unless there's someone else to follow up on the attack before you can take them down next turn. It's the equivalent of being set to 1 hp, no matter the source of the preceeding damage and health at that time.

Incapacitated is badly named. It should be "shaken," "reeling," "exhausted," or maybe "winded." Your character is still capable of moving and talking, and is still holding his sword, but he's in a lot of trouble and he knows it.

Meanwhile, "Unconscious" should be called "Incapacitated," because finishing off your mortal enemy while he lies bleeding on the floor is hella lame. "Incapacitated," on the other hand, allows him to be on his knees, clutching his wound, but looking up at you defiantly as you prepare your mortal strike. He can even cough out a final farewell, or spend a Void point to sweep up his weapon and try to kill you so that you can die together. Much more dramatic, and a classic samurai trope.

going back to OP, the newest errata DOES state that clan restrictions are not lifted by titles.