13 hours ago, Derrault said:

Fair enough, they need to rewrite the entry in the RRG to match that ruling then.

Yes, and they need to rewrite the entry you quoted before from "Engage":

"To exit an engagement, a unit must withdraw by using its entire activation to perform a speed-1 move. A unit that is withdrawing cannot do anything during the “Perform Actions” step of its activation except perform this speed-1 move."

Because if its only for the "Perform Action Step", then it doesn't work like the devs mentioned.

12 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Yes, and they need to rewrite the entry you quoted before from "Engage":

"To exit an engagement, a unit must withdraw by using its entire activation to perform a speed-1 move. A unit that is withdrawing cannot do anything during the “Perform Actions” step of its activation except perform this speed-1 move."

Because if its only for the "Perform Action Step", then it doesn't work like the devs mentioned.

The problem herein is that Engaged provides a limited restriction that absolutely does not prohibit the attack:

RRG pg. 37:
"To exit an engagement, a unit must withdraw by using
its entire activation to perform a speed-1 move. A unit
that is withdrawing cannot do anything during the
“Perform Actions” step of its activation except perform this
speed-1 move."

Then we look to the Withdraw entry (RRG pgs 72-73):

"If a unit is in an engagement, it may exit that engagement by
withdrawing during its activation.

• To withdraw a unit must use its entire activation and spend
all of it's available actions to perform a single speed-1 move.
• A unit that is withdrawing cannot perform any other
actions, including free actions, and cannot use any of its
own abilities or keywords while withdrawing.
• A withdraw is considered a move action.
• A unit can withdraw into a melee with a different
enemy unit.
• A unit with a maximum speed of zero cannot withdraw.
• A panicked unit must withdraw, moving toward the closest
edge of the battlefield."

Great, it's not using its OWN abilities (unit card) WHILE withdrawing (which literally only spans the course of the Perform Actions step).

As the rules are written, the Devs/Judge made the wrong ruling. If they intend that the game function the way the ruling went, yes, both entries need to be rewritten to increase the scope of the prohibition (as scoped, they explicitly allow non-action attacks after the Perform Actions step).

43 minutes ago, Derrault said:

WHILE withdrawing (which literally only spans the course of the Perform Actions step).

I’m not sure why you keep saying this? The RRG says (and the devs reiterated) that withdraw lasts for the entire activation. Because you use your “entire activation” to do it.

This whole interaction could certainly be made more clear with a bullet point or two (I agree it can be confusing that one section refers to the Perform Actions step while the other refers to the whole activation), but as written it does indeed work the way they ruled.

so i am confused on where yall are getting lost at with the rules. the rules as written are pretty clear. while engage and you withdraw/panic from that engagement you have to do a withdraw. the engage rule on withdrawing states the only action you can preform is speed-1 move and this takes up its entire activation (and then it has withdraw at the end of the section for further clarification) leia bombardment takes place DURING the her activation. this is pretty clear when her attack will come as its ability that the command card gave her to preform an attack at the end of her activation not after.

52 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Great, it's not using its OWN abilities (unit card) WHILE withdrawing (which literally only spans the course of the Perform Actions step).

btw when a command card is played and it has effects on it, those effects become that units abilities. so when jyn command card (for example) that gives her charge. its not the command card preforming the action its jyn and the ability she is given from the command card.

31 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

I’m not sure why you keep saying this? The RRG says (and the devs reiterated) that withdraw lasts for the entire activation. Because you use your “entire activation” to do it.

This whole interaction could certainly be made more clear with a bullet point or two (I agree it can be confusing that one section refers to the Perform Actions step while the other refers to the whole activation), but as written it does indeed work the way they ruled.

I quoted the RRG because it contradicts the devs. Using your entire activation doesn’t preclude doing anything else that’s not an action. The engaged entry makes this clear by specifying that it’s only during the Perform Actions step.

And, I did stipulate that the Devs might very well have intended the ad hoc ruling, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t fix the RRG to actually say what they meant.

29 minutes ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

so i am confused on where yall are getting lost at with the rules. the rules as written are pretty clear. while engage and you withdraw/panic from that engagement you have to do a withdraw. the engage rule on withdrawing states the only action you can preform is speed-1 move and this takes up its entire activation (and then it has withdraw at the end of the section for further clarification) leia bombardment takes place DURING the her activation. this is pretty clear when her attack will come as its ability that the command card gave her to preform an attack at the end of her activation not after.

btw when a command card is played and it has effects on it, those effects become that units abilities. so when jyn command card (for example) that gives her charge. its not the command card preforming the action its jyn and the ability she is given from the command card.

As quoted, “entire activation” isn’t defined except in the Engaged entry as being the perform actions step, and the command card specifically doesn’t take place during that step.

Abilities are also not defined in the RRG in a way that encompasses the weapon attack for Leia’s card, instead they cover key words, and things which are actions (neither of which applies to a non-action attack).

Again, maybe that’s the intent, but it’s not actually written that way, and it would be sloppy to leave it as is.

2 minutes ago, Derrault said:

As quoted, “entire activation” isn’t defined except in the Engaged entry as being the perform actions step

I think this is where you’re getting mixed up. You’re inserting a definition where there isn’t one. The Engaged section is not redefining the concept of an activation. The confusing bit is that it lays down one restriction, but then the Withdraw section lays down a larger restriction. The first is a subset of the second, they are not conflicting.

2 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

I think this is where you’re getting mixed up. You’re inserting a definition where there isn’t one. The Engaged section is not redefining the concept of an activation. The confusing bit is that it lays down one restriction, but then the Withdraw section lays down a larger restriction. The first is a subset of the second, they are not conflicting.

Except it does not. There’s nothing to define “entire activation” and the only actual restrictions are to actions. Given that the withdrawal (by choice, as opposed to from panic) would be happening in the 3rd step of the activation, it, as written, only applies to the perform actions step and while withdrawing.

If a unit is in an engagement, it may exit that engagement by withdrawing during its activation.
• To withdraw a unit must use its entire activation and spend all of it's available actions to perform a single speed-1 move.
• A unit that is withdrawing cannot perform any other actions, including free actions, and cannot use any of its own abilities or keywords while withdrawing.

There’s no textual reason to believe it applies past the Perform Actions step OR after withdrawing.

I don’t know what to tell you... I’m not actually convinced that you’re even reading the comments I and others are writing for you.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

As quoted, “entire activation” isn’t defined except in the Engaged entry as being the perform actions step, and the command card specifically doesn’t take place during that step.

from withdraw section of the RRG page 67
To withdraw a unit must use its entire activation and spend all of it's available actions to perform a single speed-1 move
the preform action step is refering to the actions you can preform in the round that a unit can normally do as stated on page 11
Move, Attack, Aim, Dodge, Standby, Recover, Card Action

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Abilities are also not defined in the RRG in a way that encompasses the weapon attack for Leia’s card, instead they cover key words, and things which are actions (neither of which applies to a non-action attack).

page 11 abilities
If an ability provides a unit with either a move or an attack during its activation , such as a move or attack granted by a command card , performing that move or attack is not an action and therefore does not trigger abilities that occur after move or attack actions are performed

59 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Except it does not. There’s nothing to define “entire activation” and the only actual restrictions are to actions. Given that the withdrawal (by choice, as opposed to from panic) would be happening in the 3rd step of the activation, it, as written, only applies to the perform actions step and while withdrawing.

page 12 defines the entire activation
1. star of unit activation
2. Rally
3. Preform actions
4. end.
5. flip command token
these are the 5 things that happen with every unit on the field when it activates.
and when you withdraw by choice (or panic) its during the perform action step, you choose to withdraw you choose the effects of withdraw ie you use the rest of your activation to preform the withdraw, since leia command card AGAIN takes place at the end of the activation or step 4 due to withdraw you don't get to preform the command card ability.

18 hours ago, nashjaee said:

I don’t know what to tell you... I’m not actually convinced that you’re even reading the comments I and others are writing for you.

Oh, I read your post. It was just fundamentally wrong. Engaged and Withdraw say, essentially the same thing in slightly different wording. Maybe you’re confused about this, because you aren’t reading the timing portion of the restrictions?

It can be summed up like so:

1) RRG entry on withdraw indicates the cost requirements of withdraw (spend all actions to make a speed-1 move) and the restrictions in place while withdrawing (can’t use actions, free actions, or benefit from abilities).

2) None of those restrictions apply any longer after withdraw is done. (See RRG page 73 for the time frame of the action).

Notice the use of while; that means those restrictions go away the instant the unit is not doing the withdraw action anymore.

Ie immediately.

17 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

from withdraw section of the RRG page 67
To withdraw a unit must use its entire activation and spend all of it's available actions to perform a single speed-1 move
the preform action step is refering to the actions you can preform in the round that a unit can normally do as stated on page 11
Move, Attack, Aim, Dodge, Standby, Recover, Card Action

page 11 abilities
If an ability provides a unit with either a move or an attack during its activation , such as a move or attack granted by a command card , performing that move or attack is not an action and therefore does not trigger abilities that occur after move or attack actions are performed

page 12 defines the entire activation
1. star of unit activation
2. Rally
3. Preform actions
4. end.
5. flip command token
these are the 5 things that happen with every unit on the field when it activates.
and when you withdraw by choice (or panic) its during the perform action step, you choose to withdraw you choose the effects of withdraw ie you use the rest of your activation to preform the withdraw, since leia command card AGAIN takes place at the end of the activation or step 4 due to withdraw you don't get to preform the command card ability.

There aren’t 5 steps, there are 3, and the withdraw only takes place during the 3rd step. Once that’s done, at the end of the activation is when the card happens, and withdraw doesn’t restrict anything after it’s over:

“ A unit that is withdrawing c annot ... while withdrawing.”

See? First the condition (unit that is withdrawing) then the limitations imposed (replaces with ellipsis) then the timing that bounds the limitation (while withdrawing.)

It doesn’t apply to anything that happens later on. So it absolutely needs to be rewritten to encompass things that happen AFTER the current bounding.

24 minutes ago, Derrault said:

There aren’t 5 steps, there are 3, and the withdraw only takes place during the 3rd step. Once that’s done, at the end of the activation is when the card happens, and withdraw doesn’t restrict anything after it’s over:

“ A unit that is withdrawing c annot ... while withdrawing.”

See? First the condition (unit that is withdrawing) then the limitations imposed (replaces with ellipsis) then the timing that bounds the limitation (while withdrawing.)

It doesn’t apply to anything that happens later on. So it absolutely needs to be rewritten to encompass things that happen AFTER the current bounding.

i actually added the 5th step but there are 4 steps per page 12 of the RRG, where are you getting 3 from. also the rules for withdraw states ENTIRE ACTIVATION. i repeat ENTIRE ACTIVATION it says it in both the engage section and the withdraw section. so the end of activation is part of the ENTIRE ACTIVATION. so how are you separating the end of activation as not being part of the ENTIRE ACTIVATION is beyond me.
page 67
To withdraw a unit must use its entire activation and spend all of it's available actions to perform a single speed-1 move
also page 35 engage
To exit an engagement, a unit must withdraw by using its entire activation
in both cases in both sets of rules it cleary states entire activation the entire activation is from BEGINNING TO END.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Oh, I read your post. It was just fundamentally wrong. Engaged and Withdraw say, essentially the same thing in slightly different wording. Maybe you’re confused about this, because you aren’t reading the timing portion of the restrictions?

It can be summed up like so:

1) RRG entry on withdraw indicates the cost requirements of withdraw (spend all actions to make a speed-1 move) and the restrictions in place while withdrawing (can’t use actions, free actions, or benefit from abilities).

2) None of those restrictions apply any longer after withdraw is done. (See RRG page 73 for the time frame of the action).

Notice the use of while; that means those restrictions go away the instant the unit is not doing the withdraw action anymore.

Ie immediately.

See, the reason it comes as if you don't read our posts is that you still don't seem to get what exactly we disagree on . If you are reading them, you are clearly making minimal attempt to understand them...

Hopefully this will be more clear to you:

Quote

1) RRG entry on withdraw indicates the cost requirements of withdraw (spend all actions to make a speed-1 move) and the restrictions in place while withdrawing (can’t use actions, free actions, or benefit from abilities).

I've bolded the part I'm referencing here. This is not even remotely where the disagreement is. We all agree on the bold statement. The restrictions only last during the withdrawing period.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

2) None of those restrictions apply any longer after withdraw is done.

Again, we agree on this part. This is clearly correct. The restrictions do not apply after withdrawing is done.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

There aren’t 5 steps, there are 3, and the withdraw only takes place during the 3rd step . Once that’s done, at the end of the activation is when the card happens, and withdraw doesn’t restrict anything after it’s over:

Now we arrive at the disagreement! This bold part right here. The Withdraw entry says to use your entire activation in order to perform a withdraw. There is no reason to think that withdraw is limited to a sub-step of the activation. The only way to arrive at that conclusion is to completely ignore this "entire activation" line. And before you say we are ignoring the Engagement section: no we're not, as has been addressed multiple times already. The restriction laid out in the Engagement section is logically a subset of the restriction in the Withdraw section .

In summary: the Engagement section says you can't do anything during the Perform Actions step. The Withdraw section says you can't do anything while withdrawing, and defines the timing of "withdraw" as the entire activation (since you have to "use" the entire activation). There is no conflict here, just some overlap.

I truly don't know how to make it more clear than this, and we are all just repeating ourselves at this point, so I'm going to drop it after this one.

1 hour ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

i actually added the 5th step but there are 4 steps per page 12 of the RRG, where are you getting 3 from. also the rules for withdraw states ENTIRE ACTIVATION. i repeat ENTIRE ACTIVATION it says it in both the engage section and the withdraw section. so the end of activation is part of the ENTIRE ACTIVATION. so how are you separating the end of activation as not being part of the ENTIRE ACTIVATION is beyond me.
page 67
To withdraw a unit must use its entire activation and spend all of it's available actions to perform a single speed-1 move
also page 35 engage
To exit an engagement, a unit must withdraw by using its entire activation
in both cases in both sets of rules it cleary states entire activation the entire activation is from BEGINNING TO END.

ACTIVATING UNITS
During the Activation Phase, players take turns activating their units.
• When a unit activates, that unit can perform up to two actions.
• The steps of unit activation are as follows:
12
1. Start of Unit Activation: If the unit has an ability that triggers “when” it activates or “at the start” of its activation, the ability triggers during this step.
» At the start of a vehicle unit’s activation, if that unit is damaged, it must roll a white defense die. If this roll produces a blank result, it can perform only one action, instead of two.
2. Rally: If the unit has one or more suppression tokens, it rolls one white defense die for each suppression token it has. For each block (󲉣) or defense surge (�) result the roll produces, the unit removes one of its suppression tokens.
3. Perform Actions: A unit that is not suppressed can perform up to two actions and any number of free actions. A unit that is suppressed or that has lost an action due to being damaged can perform only one action and any number of free actions.
» After a player activates a unit, that player places its order token facedown (rank side down) on the battlefield near the unit leader.
• If more than one effect takes place at the end of a unit’s activation, the player that controls that unit decides the order of these effects.

1, 2, 3. Copy-paste from page 12

So, that’s where I’m getting it from

30 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

See, the reason it comes as if you don't read our posts is that you still don't seem to get what exactly we disagree on . If you are reading them, you are clearly making minimal attempt to understand them...

Hopefully this will be more clear to you:

I've bolded the part I'm referencing here. This is not even remotely where the disagreement is. We all agree on the bold statement. The restrictions only last during the withdrawing period.

Again, we agree on this part. This is clearly correct. The restrictions do not apply after withdrawing is done.

Now we arrive at the disagreement! This bold part right here. The Withdraw entry says to use your entire activation in order to perform a withdraw. There is no reason to think that withdraw is limited to a sub-step of the activation. The only way to arrive at that conclusion is to completely ignore this "entire activation" line. And before you say we are ignoring the Engagement section: no we're not, as has been addressed multiple times already. The restriction laid out in the Engagement section is logically a subset of the restriction in the Withdraw section .

In summary: the Engagement section says you can't do anything during the Perform Actions step. The Withdraw section says you can't do anything while withdrawing, and defines the timing of "withdraw" as the entire activation (since you have to "use" the entire activation). There is no conflict here, just some overlap.

I truly don't know how to make it more clear than this, and we are all just repeating ourselves at this point, so I'm going to drop it after this one.

Well, the reason it’s a subset is that you can’t perform the action until the third step. So, obviously it definitionally doesn’t use steps 1 or 2.

We got an official response on this point just now on the Official Rulings post:

12 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

We got an official response on this point just now on the Official Rulings post:

Question: Can I use Leia Organa's Coordinated Bombardment command card after withdrawing from a melee engagement?

Answer: Yes, and General Veers can do the same thing with his Maximum Firepower command card.

Very interesting as it reverses the ruling they had made at Adepticon last year, but it's also not the only reversal we just got lol!