I'd put Sokorii as maybe opening a scroll, but the Obsidian Flower definitely has.

As a corollary, if the Unicorn have been back in Rokugan for nearly 300 years, why is there such suspicion and animosity over Meishodo? Granted it's mostly the magic hoarders (Phoenix) who are upset and vocal about it in the current timeline, but they've had multiple generations of opportunities to study, spy, and steal secrets from the "newcomers". On that note, I'm curious if the Yogo have any opinions on this topic.

51 minutes ago, T_Kageyasu said:

As a corollary, if the Unicorn have been back in Rokugan for nearly 300 years, why is there such suspicion and animosity over Meishodo? Granted it's mostly the magic hoarders (Phoenix) who are upset and vocal about it in the current timeline, but they've had multiple generations of opportunities to study, spy, and steal secrets from the "newcomers". On that note, I'm curious if the Yogo have any opinions on this topic.

I've had this thought before too.

The (entirely personal) answer I have come up with is that the Phoenix as a whole were happy to ignore the Unicorn when they were "barbarians returned" even if a minority of shugenja were concerned about this "thing" called Meishodo. Who knows what backward (inferior) beliefs they picked up in the gaijin world. But it wasn't relevant to the core of Phoenix interests. NOW in the present, imbalances in the spirit world are rampant! What could be causing them? All Phoenix in the know put a priority on addressing this! The formerly minority of Shugenja suddenly get traction! "Its like we've been saying for generations - the foreign Meishodo magic is warping the spiritual fabric of the land!" So now it's a big deal.

7 hours ago, Void Crane said:

I've had this thought before too.

The (entirely personal) answer I have come up with is that the Phoenix as a whole were happy to ignore the Unicorn when they were "barbarians returned" even if a minority of shugenja were concerned about this "thing" called Meishodo. Who knows what backward (inferior) beliefs they picked up in the gaijin world. But it wasn't relevant to the core of Phoenix interests. NOW in the present, imbalances in the spirit world are rampant! What could be causing them? All Phoenix in the know put a priority on addressing this! The formerly minority of Shugenja suddenly get traction! "Its like we've been saying for generations - the foreign Meishodo magic is warping the spiritual fabric of the land!" So now it's a big deal.

Great response! Maybe it also acts as a foil for covering up their own behavior, which is causing imbalance? Just speculating here based on the cluster they caused in old5R delving into things best left unfurled.

In one of the fictions, "Outsiders" I believe, it mentions the Phoenix giving any Unicorn access to visit their shrines and temples (without need for travel papers). Talk about a sneaky way for them to keep track of barbarian interests and gather intel for future reconnaissance.

On 9/19/2019 at 12:20 PM, T_Kageyasu said:

Great response! Maybe it also acts as a foil for covering up their own behavior, which is causing imbalance? Just speculating here based on the cluster they caused in old5R delving into things best left unfurled.

In one of the fictions, "Outsiders" I believe, it mentions the Phoenix giving any Unicorn access to visit their shrines and temples (without need for travel papers). Talk about a sneaky way for them to keep track of barbarian interests and gather intel for future reconnaissance.

I'm pretty sure that it was specifically the Ki-rin Shrine, which is kinda relevant to the Unicorn...

7 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'm pretty sure that it was specifically the Ki-rin Shrine, which is kinda relevant to the Unicorn...

My mistake

Given how infrequent travel is across the empire, I still think the Phoenix would be keeping track of their visitors, in an alterior motives kind of way. Personally, I like to think of the Phoenix as being Scorpion-lite, at least when it comes to magic.

On 9/18/2019 at 8:58 PM, Void Crane said:

I've had this thought before too.

The (entirely personal) answer I have come up with is that the Phoenix as a whole were happy to ignore the Unicorn when they were "barbarians returned" even if a minority of shugenja were concerned about this "thing" called Meishodo. Who knows what backward (inferior) beliefs they picked up in the gaijin world. But it wasn't relevant to the core of Phoenix interests. NOW in the present, imbalances in the spirit world are rampant! What could be causing them? All Phoenix in the know put a priority on addressing this! The formerly minority of Shugenja suddenly get traction! "Its like we've been saying for generations - the foreign Meishodo magic is warping the spiritual fabric of the land!" So now it's a big deal.

This exactly. Something is going wrong, and a scapegoat has been found.

Scapegoat implies that there's no relationship. There's certainly something odd going on with foreign spirits.

With apologies for the thread necromancy, this Wikipedia article may be highly relevant to the topic, as well as being generally informative/inspiring for other reasons:

Bunrei - Wikipedia

On 9/4/2019 at 4:13 PM, Scrivener Spills said:

oh man. oh man. I wonder if the Black Scrolls exist in this timeline? What if the scrolls... are built as meishodo talismans?

Actually, the big problem with the black scrolls is that they're not Talismans. If they were talismans, the spirit of Fu Leng could theoretically be trapped forever, but because they aren't talismans, every time a scroll is used, it releases the part of Fu Leng's spirit that was trapped within it, so when all the Black Scrolls are used, Fu Leng is back at full power. It seems likely that, unbeknownst to the people of Rokugan, Fu Leng actually agreed to have bits of his spirit trapped in the black scrolls for one use of each scroll. He knew that his spirit would be reunited and he would be at full power when all 12 scrolls had been opened. The ironic thing about the phoenix distrust of meishodo is that meishodo is the one method that could actually be effective in permanently locking away powerful evil spirits such as Fu Leng.

On 9/18/2019 at 10:59 PM, T_Kageyasu said:

As a corollary, if the Unicorn have been back in Rokugan for nearly 300 years, why is there such suspicion and animosity over Meishodo? Granted it's mostly the magic hoarders (Phoenix) who are upset and vocal about it in the current timeline, but they've had multiple generations of opportunities to study, spy, and steal secrets from the "newcomers". On that note, I'm curious if the Yogo have any opinions on this topic.

Funny you should mention it. Meishodo, as far as anyone knows, is really the only thing that the Unicorn hide (at least in the long term), which is suspicious in itself.

The situation is largely the Scorpion's doing (who would have guessed), but there are many other factors as well. The short story is that, when they returned, the empire was rightfully suspicious and afraid of the Unicorn right from the start. The Scorpion immediately tried to manipulate matters against the Unicorn and were meeting with great success, but they began to notice a problem. The Unicorn themselves were spreading information before the Scorpion could spread it. In fact, the Scorpion began to admire the Unicorn for their honesty and forthrightness, but they saw another problem because, the more the Unicorn tried to share, the more the other clans hated the Unicorn and accused them of being "Barbaric" and even "Blasphemous". So the clans not only refused to listen to the Unicorn, but they refused to listen to anything having to do with the Unicorn. The scorpion determined that, for the good of Rokugan, the Unicorn need to keep secrets, so the "spymasters" of Rokugan actually told the Unicorn to stop sharing and they really don't report much on the Unicorn or their secrets. I think The plan is to make the empire want the information that Unicorn have, so that they respect the value of that information.

Meishodo may be the perfect example of that plan in effect. The Unicorn would have shared it early on, but nobody was willing to listen then, so the Unicorn make it "their most prized secret" (at the advice of the scorpion) and now everyone's saying "we must know". Personally, while I understand the plan, it seems like it probably came from a Yogo. It helped cool things down and get some acceptance for the Unicorn, but I wonder how much suffering has been caused because of Meishodo becoming the "most prized secret"

On 9/25/2019 at 5:58 PM, Tonbo Karasu said:

Scapegoat implies that there's no relationship. There's certainly something odd going on with foreign spirits.

For the record, I don't believe Meishodo is the source of the current spiritual troubles in Rokugan. (this would essentially make all Meishodo users "the badguy" when it's presented as the core Unicorn shugenja school. In this game, that fact tells me that Meishodo is a tool, like Ninjutsu, not necessarily good or evil in itself.) I think it's more likely a foreign cult/demon/god that came back with the Unicorn and is specifically mucking things up. (this would be a perfectly Kolat thing to do). As per the Scorpion-Unicorn plan, this creates an excuse for people to demand to know about Unicorn magic, which gives the Unicorn the opportunity to share and be heard.

32 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

Funny you should mention it. Meishodo, as far as anyone knows, is really the only thing that the Unicorn hide (at least in the long term), which is suspicious in itself.

The situation is largely the Scorpion's doing (who would have guessed), but there are many other factors as well. The short story is that, when they returned, the empire was rightfully suspicious and afraid of the Unicorn right from the start. The Scorpion immediately tried to manipulate matters against the Unicorn and were meeting with great success, but they began to notice a problem. The Unicorn themselves were spreading information before the Scorpion could spread it. In fact, the Scorpion began to admire the Unicorn for their honesty and forthrightness, but they saw another problem because, the more the Unicorn tried to share, the more the other clans hated the Unicorn and accused them of being "Barbaric" and even "Blasphemous". So the clans not only refused to listen to the Unicorn, but they refused to listen to anything having to do with the Unicorn. The scorpion determined that, for the good of Rokugan, the Unicorn need to keep secrets, so the "spymasters" of Rokugan actually told the Unicorn to stop sharing and they really don't report much on the Unicorn or their secrets. I think The plan is to make the empire want the information that Unicorn have, so that they respect the value of that information.

Meishodo may be the perfect example of that plan in effect. The Unicorn would have shared it early on, but nobody was willing to listen then, so the Unicorn make it "their most prized secret" (at the advice of the scorpion) and now everyone's saying "we must know". Personally, while I understand the plan, it seems like it probably came from a Yogo. It helped cool things down and get some acceptance for the Unicorn, but I wonder how much suffering has been caused because of Meishodo becoming the "most prized secret"

For the record, I don't believe Meishodo is the source of the current spiritual troubles in Rokugan. (this would essentially make all Meishodo users "the badguy" when it's presented as the core Unicorn shugenja school. In this game, that fact tells me that Meishodo is a tool, like Ninjutsu, not necessarily good or evil in itself.) I think it's more likely a foreign cult/demon/god that came back with the Unicorn and is specifically mucking things up. (this would be a perfectly Kolat thing to do). As per the Scorpion-Unicorn plan, this creates an excuse for people to demand to know about Unicorn magic, which gives the Unicorn the opportunity to share and be heard.

And by letting the Unicorn keep their secrets, the Scorpion appear as generous friendly allies in a distrustful society. Keep in mind the Scorpion used the Unicorn to make themselves appear weak, so as to slip into obscurity where they are more effective at serving the Emperor. Scorpion of today could learn a lesson or two from their ancestors!

As I understand it, it's less that Meishodo is evil, and more that it moves spirits around. It brought foreign spirits into Rokugan, which at least contributed to the imbalance and it certainly deactivated the wards in the Imperial Palace by removing those kami.

7 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

Personally, while I understand the plan, it seems like it probably came from a Yogo.

Well, remember we know the Yogo have married into the Unicorn high-up.

Iuchi Shahai (the daimyo's daughter) has the quote of "it must be the Yogo in me" after something goes badly wrong.

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 7:53 PM, Scrivener Spills said:

This exactly. Something is going wrong, and a scapegoat has been found.

Exactly so. The absolute last thing the Phoenix want is anyone asking them extensive questions.

Firstly they don't want anything which looks like the office of the Jade Champion resurrecting (and hence moving ultimate authority for rulings on matters supernatural outside their clan) and secondly anything which could lead to the question " so how did that tsunami occur, anyway ?" would be very, very, very unacceptable.

3 hours ago, Myrion said:

As I understand it, it's less that Meishodo is evil, and more that it moves spirits around. It brought foreign spirits into Rokugan, which at least contributed to the imbalance and it certainly deactivated the wards in the Imperial Palace by removing those kami.

Exactly. The result is that Rokugani shujenga don't really know how to allow for its effects. There's a conversation between the Seppun and the Phoenix way back at the start of the fictions, where the seppun says that, for example, the Asahina's talismans, or the Soshi's 'silent invocation' is something the Seppun Hidden Guard don't really know how to duplicate because they're a secret of the family (and this despite them being in the empire for its entire history, not just a couple of centuries), but he knows roughly what they're capable of doing , even if he doesn't know how .

By comparison, if the Seppun knew a meishodo practitioner could seal away the kami responsible for the protective wards on the inner palace without them noticing, events might have gone significantly differently.

Unfortunately, Iuchi Shahai (being an emotional teenager) took it on herself not to do the job she was sent there for - teaching the Seppun Hidden Guard how to protect the Hantei from a meishodo master with nefarious intentions - instead spending her time deliberately misleading them whilst taking every opportunity to make doe-eyes at Daisetsu-kun....

I am willing to agree that Meishodo is a tool that is not necessarily evil. However, the irony is that the Qamarists have banned it, as explained in Across the Burning Sands . Other events in that show that it is easy to do evil with the tool, IMHO. I would be tempted to put it in the same territory as Tadaka (and Akuma's) offering of self to kami.

12 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

However, the irony is that the Qamarists have banned it, as explained in Across the Burning Sands .

Interesting note. Must get round to the novellas!

9 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Interesting note. Must get round to the novellas!

Yes! All 4 are kind of 'side-quest' plots, but they do interesting things. The Phoenix one is basically the back-story for the Kaito, since they've not had 4 editions already. The Scorpion one continues on with the internal rivalries. The Unicorn one is world-building the replacement to LBS. The Dragon one is a look back to a younger Mitsu and Kazue and possibly a really important character.

The Novellas have been all fantastic, but they also have been more or less self contained character pieces. So I can see how you skipped them. That said the characters they explore are great and are sure to come back up. Speaking of which I miss Tsukune. I hope we get a fiction with her again to see how she is managing.

On 3/3/2020 at 2:26 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Firstly they don't want anything which looks like the office of the Jade Champion resurrecting (and hence moving ultimate authority for rulings on matters supernatural outside their clan) and secondly anything which could lead to the question " so how did that tsunami occur, anyway ?" would be very, very, very unacceptable.

Kami **** fire chickens...

On 3/3/2020 at 2:26 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Unfortunately, Iuchi Shahai (being an emotional teenager) took it on herself not to do the job she was sent there for - teaching the Seppun Hidden Guard how to protect the Hantei from a meishodo master with nefarious intentions - instead spending her time deliberately misleading them whilst taking every opportunity to make doe-eyes at Daisetsu-kun....

I mean, can you blame her? He is soooo dreamy (and possibly the next Iuchiban) 🥰

10 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

(and possibly the next Iuchiban)

Arguably worse. He's a compassionate person with some fairly strong opinions on how cruddy bushido is to the people who try to follow it, and who - since he's now legally Emperor, even if he may not know this, is likely to want to do something about that. Which may involve taking a wrecking ball to the celestial order....

In the 'older' version of the lore, Daigotsu still wanted the celestial order, with an emperor and the Kami and their descendants ruling. He just had a rather different opinion on which Kami that should be....

Having now read across the burning sands (good story!), a couple of minor points:

On 3/3/2020 at 7:49 PM, Tonbo Karasu said:

However, the irony is that the Qamarists have banned it, as explained in Across the Burning Sands . Other events in that show that it is easy to do evil with the tool, IMHO

They've banned slavery, which includes enslaving djinn - I.e using meishodo to compel a djinn (or kami) into obedience. Using Meishodo to improve one's ability to communicate, or to carry a piece of a Kami willingly given would be different, I'd imagine.

One other thought - if you think of the Black Scrolls as some sort of proto-proto-meishodo, the fact that Fu Leng's true name has been lost potentially takes on a different dimension. I mean, presumably his siblings knew it?

13 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

One other thought - if you think of the Black Scrolls as some sort of proto-proto-meishodo, the fact that Fu Leng's true name has been lost potentially takes on a different dimension. I mean, presumably his siblings knew it?

That's a good point, which hadn't occurred to me.