Meishodo is one that keeps getting changed from edition to edition, and I'm getting really confused as to how it "works". When it first showed up, the magic used the power of names as a replacement for calling on the kami, and the talismans were a way to bind a spirit of that name to make your spells more powerful. Later editions made it so that you could ONLY use a spell with a talisman tied to it, but still, you bound a spirit into the talisman. This always made me think that the Names were more... categories. Since obviously, there were multiple spirits that could answer to the name, if different shugenja could call on the same name.

In the newest edition / lore of the card game, they can again cast invocations normally, without a talisman, by calling on Names. (and without the loss of calling on the Kami directly and communing with spirits that happened previously) The talismans just make it easier. But again, it states in multiple places that it binds the spirits called by name. This led me to wonder about using Names other than the book of Names, for example, what would happen if you DID try to bind a kami? or worse, what if you tried to bind an ancestor spirit? And then... I read Outsiders. https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/34/2b/342bf898-9071-4066-82d2-637c009636eb/elemental_cycle_phoenix_webcompressed.pdf

In it, the Iuchi states that his school has cataloged the true name of every Kami along the pilgrimage path. Suggesting that even the Kami have secret, hidden names that can be used to call on them. And THEN, states that he has a trinket for the kami of this particular shrine. Yet... what spirit is bound to it? Is there a piece of that kami in his trinket?

Am I the only one confused?

This is how I play it with my Iuchi player;

When he cast an invocation without his talisman, it is regular invocations as per all other shugenjas.

When he cast his invocation thru his talisman, we consider it as he is casting Meishodo (other shugenja will definitely notice the difference, and it can have some roleplay impact).

And yeah, he can "bind" minor kamis into his talisman. That is how his talismans gain their power. But that is just for style as those kami have no gameplay impact in our game and if he binds something that is stronger, more meaningful than just a random minor kami, then we will roleplay the scene a bit more and maybe it can be more difficult, or more risky. Though, the exact way you make it work in your game is up to you.

So you play it as the Names are indeed true names of minor Kami, as well as other non Rokugan spirits? cool, thanks.

32 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

So you play it as the Names are indeed true names of minor Kami, as well as other non Rokugan spirits? cool, thanks.

Yup, I let my Iuchi bind whatever he wants when he "design" his talisman.

Obviously, according to his location, the narrative and other considerations. And trying to bind a major, very strong, mountain kami for example might require a bit of work on his part, if not a quest in itself (and might be very negatively seen by the locals) but it is in the realm of possibilities.

But yeah... I mean, there isn't much to go by so I decided to wing it as such and so far it is good.

Quote

"If this is how one spells the name of the Hōseki Pond’s kami, then its true name should be…"

So to a degree, it's possible to figure out one from the other.

Quote

“You would command them?”

His brown eyes tilted to the bauble in his palm. “There is more to meishōdō than that. By invoking the spirit’s true name, the properly trained can use the trinket to directly communicate with it.” He clasped it as one might a string of prayer beads. “I had hoped to speak directly to the kami of this shrine. I was going to ask it…”

Hesitation. “…if it knew my father.”

Which implies the trinket isn't 'full' or holding 'a piece' - because he can't use it outside the shrine. But it does provide a focus far more effective than a normal 'commune with the spirits' type activity.

36 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

So to a degree, it's possible to figure out one from the other.

Which implies the trinket isn't 'full' or holding 'a piece' - because he can't use it outside the shrine. But it does provide a focus far more effective than a normal 'commune with the spirits' type activity.

How would you play it out so it fits with their school ability? Considering they can bring the talisman to anywhere they go once it is created.

Honest question, see if I will tweak the way I use them for my Iuchi player. Meishodo is a big part of my campaign so the more I know, the better.

Edit: I do allow the Iuchi to do commune with the spirit with the kami he bound in his talisman also.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

How would you play it out so it fits with their school ability? Considering they can bring the talisman to anywhere they go once it is created.

I would suggest there's a difference between a talisman for a generic invocation and 'commune with this specific kami' trinkets like you see in Outsiders (which isn't really covered by the Way of Names school ability).

If the talisman you've created is for (as an example) grasp of earth, you may have bound a minor earth spirit to it (which isn't dramatically different to persuading one to come live in a quickly-made shrine, as per the shujenga duel in Repentance Does Not Come First ). I kind of see a meishodo talisman as a tiny portable shrine which the spirit will either tolerate or can be forcibly bound to (depending on your view of meishodo) because it's custom-made with the spirit's name in mind. That function is presumably why/how (in Smokeless Fire ) it's implied a Djinn could hide in one to sneak into Otosan Uchi.

Said lesser Kami is in your pocket/around your neck/whatever and will help you whenever you perform said invocation.

A talisman created for, say, The Kami of Burning Stone Mountain is not going to be able to contain one of the most powerful Fire Kami in Rokugan. It lets you commune with that Kami (but only that Kami) more effectively, but that's only relevant if you're present.

That's not the Meishodo Talisman as described in the Way of Names ability - for that, you might have a trinket with a lesser fire spirit bound to it, which if you happen to be stood on the slopes of Ishi Yakeyama will help you perform the invocation Robes of the Ifrit , just like it would anywhere else, but that's because lil' fire spirit Kevin* who lives in the talisman is better at going 'Oi!' and attracting the volcano's spirit than you are, because it's a being of a similar nature.

As an aside/house rule, with regards to the use described in Outsiders , I see no reason you couldn't create a talisman intended for a (specific) application of Commune with the Spirits ritual, which would have a similar effect.

*Note: Kami may not actually be called Kevin.

Yeah, that is about how I see it. Thx for the insight!

I might allow the Iuchi to bind stronger spirits as he gain ranks though. It is mostly a narrative tweak as the power level of the talisman isn't stronger.

But if you check the different level of djinns, it can make sense that a rank1 iuchi can bind the lower forms while a master at rank 4-5 could bind the stronger ones.

oo, i didnt even think about binding djinn! that sounds... explosive.

excellent point for the trinket for communing separate of binding.

I have to admit, I'm having a desire to be an ahole. We're running the Emerald Magistrate adventure right now, and I REALLY want to take Doji Satsume's tea bowl, inscribe his name on it, and the next time he shows up to give guidance, bind his ghostly butt to it.

Also, Magnus, Kevin is definitely the personal Kami of the infamous Shinjo Bob.

29 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

oo, i didnt even think about binding djinn! that sounds... explosive.

excellent point for the trinket for communing separate of binding.

I have to admit, I'm having a desire to be an ahole. We're running the Emerald Magistrate adventure right now, and I REALLY want to take Doji Satsume's tea bowl, inscribe his name on it, and the next time he shows up to give guidance, bind his ghostly butt to it.

As a GM I would allow it, but probably require quite the check to make it happen, probably a very hard theology check before being able to attempt the design check. Plus, when the meishodo user would use this talisman, most probably make it visible on the spell that doji satsume is helping, like adding narrative flair to the invocation and that can be a funky thing depending on which npc sees it.

This would also probably be more of the realm of moto death priest. Since you are binding a ghost. Which could be ok or not even if a Meishodo fan see it. But then.. it could appeal to the Shi-Tien Yen-Wang and can become an interesting story twist.

I don’t think the story is really representative of meishodo. It’s more representative of the Iuchi and Kaito, but the Kaito don’t know much about invocations (as the story explains) and the Iuchi specifically mislead people about meishodo.

Also, In previous editions, shugenja of other clans used scrolls to invoke the kami. It’s not just meishodo which changed over the editions, it’s all spellcasting. In some way the meishodo changes are easier to explain, since the unicorn “shugenja” aren’t all from Rokugan many of them have no (or reduced) connection to the kami.. in the current edition this can be seen in the moto shugenja school, which can not access two elements normally, but if given a meishodo talisman they could use it to access invocations they wouldn’t normally be able to use.

The unicorn can potentially use name magic to compel any elemental spirit (and maybe other types of spirits), but they avoid compelling all but the most evil spirits into their talismans, which is why meishodo talismans often emit “evil”. Essentially the unicorn consider it dishonorable to compel spirits that they might be able to appease instead.

Remember that name magic isn’t the same as talisman magic or binding magic. The Kaito temporarily bind spirits into their arrows when they shoot them, and the Yogo bind spirits into their wards. The difference here is that most Rokugani shugenja try to appease spirits and, when it comes to binding a spirit, that usually means agreeing that the spirit will only be bound for a limited amount of time or for limited uses. Because the unicorn are able to compel spirits, they are able to bind those spirits without agreeing to limited uses or time periods.

While in Rokugan, an Iuchi shugenja should be appeasing kami for their invocations, just like any other shugenja does, and actual name magic should only be used to compel a spirit (preferably a corrupt spirit) into a talisman.

Description of Sorcery/Name Magic in the Unicorn Novella seems to concur - it's a method gaijin sorcerers use to basically entreat or even trap or compell powers like djinn and demons (with djinn having some elemental parallels) through bargaining and/or force. The Iuchi basically know how to apply these tricks to kami, to use them as a form of direct communication, enshrinement (which is not inherently evil, remember the Asahina are supposed to do something similar with their ability to temporarily awaken items) and binding if needed. Technically I don't think they need the talismans to actually do the name magic part, but it's probably easier to scribble it down on a totem or something than be yelling true names out all the time.

the big technical question for me, that I had to answer (because I have a Iuchi player) is:

when the Iuchi shugenja cast an invocation without the use of his talisman, is he doing it in sensibly the same way as any other great clan shugenja? my answer: yes

when the Iuchi shugenja is using his talisman to cast an invocation, is that visible to other people with an ok theology rank to understand that is he using a gaijin form of magic (meishodo). my answer: yes

when the iuchi binds a spirit in his talisman, does it impact the "visual" of the spell he is casting? ie: if he binds a djinn into a grasp of earth, does the grasp of earth seems more "djinn-like"? my answer was: yes

can the Iuchi Shugenja bind any type/power of kami, djinn, ghost etc in his talisman? my answer: the trickiest question, and I allow it with an added check.

does those strong entities that are bound in his talisman mechanically make his talisman stronger? my answer: no, but there is a narrative purpose to that, and I also can give opportunities, or advantage, if I find that he is using the entity in a way that the entity would be particularly fond of.


all in all... I tried to make it as close to the current ffg meishodo lore as we know it from all the source material.

I generally agree with @Avatar111 on his questions.

On the first question I would add that ffg has decided that there are many “traditions” of invocations, and a person should, perhaps with some sort of roll, be able to tell the difference between a foreign tradition, an alchemy tradition, an ancestral tradition, etc. it seems less obvious whether an observer should notice the difference between the foreign tradition of meishodo when compared to the foreign tradition of the Moto avengers.

On the second question, I would differ slightly. Using meishodo seems to require handling the item and speaking the name of the bound spirit.. but a shugenja doesn’t necessarily hold the item out for people to see, or shout the spirit’s name, so I would argue that using a talisman has signs which might be a cause for an opposed test to hide or notice.

on the third question however, it seems that the type of spirit bound in the item causes obvious differences in the aesthetics of the invocation.. even to the point of making the invocation feel unnatural and evil. So even if an Iuchi manages to hide the use of their talisman, the resulting invocation will still show signs of the use of meishodo. Again, actually understanding what is happening might require some sort of roll.

I believe that using meishodo on the spirits of the dead is similar to bloodspeaking. I know that the unicorn have dealt with death cults/gods in the burning sands, but i’m not really familiar with the details of these interactions.

4 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

I generally agree with @Avatar111 on his questions.

On the first question I would add that ffg has decided that there are many “traditions” of invocations, and a person should, perhaps with some sort of roll, be able to tell the difference between a foreign tradition, an alchemy tradition, an ancestral tradition, etc. it seems less obvious whether an observer should notice the difference between the foreign tradition of meishodo when compared to the foreign tradition of the Moto avengers.

On the second question, I would differ slightly. Using meishodo seems to require handling the item and speaking the name of the bound spirit.. but a shugenja doesn’t necessarily hold the item out for people to see, or shout the spirit’s name, so I would argue that using a talisman has signs which might be a cause for an opposed test to hide or notice.

on the third question however, it seems that the type of spirit bound in the item causes obvious differences in the aesthetics of the invocation.. even to the point of making the invocation feel unnatural and evil. So even if an Iuchi manages to hide the use of their talisman, the resulting invocation will still show signs of the use of meishodo. Again, actually understanding what is happening might require some sort of roll.

I believe that using meishodo on the spirits of the dead is similar to bloodspeaking. I know that the unicorn have dealt with death cults/gods in the burning sands, but i’m not really familiar with the details of these interactions.

Binding the spirits of the dead I made it like if using death magic (not necessarily evil per say) like the moto gods (shi-tien yen-wang). Definitely not something accepted by most samurai in Rokugan though. But that is how I flavor it, obviously the death gods have their own agenda and might start to "poke" the Iuchi in some ways if this is something he starts to get fond of. Also, this is a case of staking honor most of the time too.

All in all, yeah, I was expecting a bit more technicalities on meishodo from the unicorn novella but winging it as I mentioned so far seems to be ok. Im glad for this discussion and that im not "too far off" in my interpretation according to the lore buffs around here!

great thoughts all, thank you!

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 5:06 PM, Scrivener Spills said:

I have to admit, I'm having a desire to be an ahole. We're running the Emerald Magistrate adventure right now, and I REALLY want to take Doji Satsume's tea bowl, inscribe his name on it, and the next time he shows up to give guidance, bind his ghostly butt to it.

My PCs are getting similarly annoyed with him.

Our slightly phasmophobic Crab (he was brought up by his Kuni aunt who's basically raised him with a paranoia associated with anything supernatural) has decided he's officially haunted.

Right now they've just attended his funeral in the capital, and are now doing 'dark tides' and are happy because whilst they're in one of the seediest, scummiest towns in the empire and probably going to be murdered by gaijin, opium addicts, smugglers, opium-addicted gaijin smugglers, or the local fire brigade, at least they haven't seen any sign of ghosts.

The fact that the main villain of the piece is Kitsu Sokorii and it leads into Mask of the Oni is going to be such a disappointment.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

My PCs are getting similarly annoyed with him.

Our slightly phasmophobic Crab (he was brought up by his Kuni aunt who's basically raised him with a paranoia associated with anything supernatural) has decided he's officially haunted.

Right now they've just attended his funeral in the capital, and are now doing 'dark tides' and are happy because whilst they're in one of the seediest, scummiest towns in the empire and probably going to be murdered by gaijin, opium addicts, smugglers, opium-addicted gaijin smugglers, or the local fire brigade, at least they haven't seen any sign of ghosts.

The fact that the main villain of the piece is Kitsu Sokorii and it leads into Mask of the Oni is going to be such a disappointment.

Just dont do mask of the oni.

Make azif the smooth the big bad and go on the mantis island to live the good life

they can even come back with the mantis winter court delegation later on, and make yoritomo's niece the crown princess and duel toshimoko.

12 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

My PCs are getting similarly annoyed with him.

Our slightly phasmophobic Crab (he was brought up by his Kuni aunt who's basically raised him with a paranoia associated with anything supernatural) has decided he's officially haunted.

Right now they've just attended his funeral in the capital, and are now doing 'dark tides' and are happy because whilst they're in one of the seediest, scummiest towns in the empire and probably going to be murdered by gaijin, opium addicts, smugglers, opium-addicted gaijin smugglers, or the local fire brigade, at least they haven't seen any sign of ghosts.

The fact that the main villain of the piece is Kitsu Sokorii and it leads into Mask of the Oni is going to be such a disappointment.

I feel that your players would thank you, in a twisted sort of way, if you managed to get Satsume's ghost involved again. It is sometimes fun to really dislike a character.

I got an official response! INTERESTING!

here are a lot of questions here, thank you for writing in! I’d like to preface this with the statement that none of the answers to these questions have been revealed in-game or out-of-game in our edition, so you and your group will have to decide what is best for your game’s story. With that being said, here are some thoughts and ideas for how some of these things might work.

Let me break down each bit here to try to answer you as best as possible:

If you are binding a spirit by its NAME, as known from the book of names, does that mean that the spirit of that same name is no longer available to other practitioners? Or are you merely binding a portion of that named spirit, or perhaps one of many spirits that share a name? Is there a part of the spirit bound into that talisman? Or are there secondary talismans, no spirit bound to them, but the name in them, perhaps to make speaking to that particular spirit easier?

Spirits do not follow the same rules as mortal beings, such as being in only one place at one time, so multiple people could potentially bind the same spirit in different talismans. However, this might dilute the spirit’s essence and power, which could cause narrative and mechanical repercussions (subject to GM discretion). Additionally, if the two talismans were used against each other, each containing half of the essence of a single spirit, all sorts of chaos could ensue.

Also, regarding names, some spirits may share a name, while others do not. It is highly dependent on the spirit/spirits in question, and a spirit’s name can also change under certain circumstances (an example might be the spirit experiences something catastrophic, such as corruption, which may alter the essence of the spirit).

Does this mean all Rokugani fortunes have a secret Name of Power that could be determined? How would it be determined? Could you bind a Rokugani spirit and pull it from a shrine by force? And on that same note, if you can bind a Fortune, can you bind an ancestor spirit? For example, I am going through the Palace of the Emerald Champion adventure, and the idea of being able to bind the deceased ghost of the last Emerald Champion is very very tempting. Is this theoretically possible?

The answers to these questions are up to you and your GM! In the end, the stories you tell in Rokugan belong to your table, and exploring the answers to these questions in-game could lead to some very interesting and exciting adventures. However, we can tell you that Meishōdō wielders do believe they have learned the names of some Rokugani spirits.

As for ancestor spirits, no one has yet succeeded at binding such a being. Do attempt such a thing would breach several Tenets, and would have to be approached with great care––but what a story it would be!

Good luck and I wish you the best in your travels in the Emerald Empire.

Best,

"However, this might dilute the spirit’s essence and power, which could cause narrative and mechanical repercussions (subject to GM discretion). Additionally, if the two talismans were used against each other, each containing half of the essence of a single spirit, all sorts of chaos could ensue."

hmmm.... i wonder how that could tie into the current fiction? non unicorn learning the technique, dreams and portents of a massive bad thing happening involving a talisman?

And the fact that Shahai may have high-tailed it out of the palace with a bunch of meishodo talismen holding all the kami who are supposed to 'power' the wards protecting the inner palace from.....well.... basically what's just happened .

But the idea of two talismen with 'half' a Kami in each sounds really cool. I have to work that into an adventure somewhere.

12 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

And the fact that Shahai may have high-tailed it out of the palace with a bunch of meishodo talismen holding all the kami who are supposed to 'power' the wards protecting the inner palace from.....well.... basically what's just happened .

But the idea of two talismen with 'half' a Kami in each sounds really cool. I have to work that into an adventure somewhere.

err... is that a new fiction thats out? I was unaware of that.

but yeah, it totally feels like it could end with a harrys wand vs voldemorts wand scenario. and again, its not really "half" per that, although, if you got ALL the meishodo talisman makers together to make a talisman for a single spirit, you could probably mostly lock it... away.....

oh man. oh man. I wonder if the Black Scrolls exist in this timeline? What if the scrolls... are built as meishodo talismans?

29 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

I wonder if the Black Scrolls exist in this timeline?

They do. At least two have probably already been opened - one by Kitsu Sokorii and one by the Obsidian Flower.

30 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

is that a new fiction thats out? I was unaware of that.

There are quite a lot of new fictions out. Some stuff has happened.

31 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

What if the scrolls... are built as meishodo talismans?

In a sense of 'each has a piece of Fu Leng in it'? Quite possibly.