A question about hierarchy, whether a son of the emperor or even the emperor, went to a dojo, who would be the greatest authority? would the sensei command or the son of the emperor? and if the sensei should rule, what would be the proper reverence inside the game?

The Emporers son is trained personally by the emerald champion. In one of the novelettes he is being trained by the ruby champion (right hand samurai of the emerald) and the Emporers son has clear authority over her. So I imagine he would have authority over the emerald as well.

Well I don't know if that authority extends to being able to tell them their business or how to do their jobs ect. But the hier clearly has enough authority to get them to be polite and subservient to his wishes. He's not the emporer but is still descended from the Kami and mandated by heaven. (Unless of course the mandate of heaven has been lost :0 blasphemy! Seppuku!)

If it was the Emperor himself, then...well, he'd be the Emperor. Even the most senior and revered sensei in the dojo would treat him as such, considering it an enormous honor to have the Son of Heaven in his presence to begin with. That said, a reasonable Emperor would probably say something along the lines of, I'm here to learn from you, so do what you need to do to teach me...or he wouldn't likely have gone there in the first place. It would still be done with the utmost respect, of course, but the sensei would do whatever possible to honor the Emperor's wishes. Now, an unreasonable Emperor--like, say, Hantei XVI, the Steel Chrysanthemum--could easily make such a situation a living **** for the sensei and everyone else around. Such is life in Rokugan when the Emperor is around.

I guess a related question is, would the Emperor go to a dojo to be trained in stuff to begin with? Probably not--at least to some random dojo somewhere in the Empire--but he certainly could, if he wanted to. Because he's, you know, the Emperor...

It would be similar for the Emperor's son. However, the Emperor (dad) stands to be a moderating influence in this case, since he would likely take a dim view of his son being a jerk, because that reflects badly on the Hantei name. Whether he actually DOES or not is another matter, of course...but he certainly could. As noted, having the Emerald Champion as the son's sensei simplifies things, because it would be much more of a regular master-student relationship; the EC has that kind of status.

So...kinda fuzzy answer, because it's an unusual situation to which everyone would have to adapt the regular protocols around the Emperor.

4 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

If it was the Emperor himself, then...well, he'd be the Emperor. Even the most senior and revered sensei in the dojo would treat him as such, considering it an enormous honor to have the Son of Heaven in his presence to begin with. That said, a reasonable Emperor would probably say something along the lines of, I'm here to learn from you, so do what you need to do to teach me...or he wouldn't likely have gone there in the first place. It would still be done with the utmost respect, of course, but the sensei would do whatever possible to honor the Emperor's wishes. Now, an unreasonable Emperor--like, say, Hantei XVI, the Steel Chrysanthemum--could easily make such a situation a living **** for the sensei and everyone else around. Such is life in Rokugan when the Emperor is around.

I guess a related question is, would the Emperor go to a dojo to be trained in stuff to begin with? Probably not--at least to some random dojo somewhere in the Empire--but he certainly could, if he wanted to. Because he's, you know, the Emperor...

It would be similar for the Emperor's son. However, the Emperor (dad) stands to be a moderating influence in this case, since he would likely take a dim view of his son being a jerk, because that reflects badly on the Hantei name. Whether he actually DOES or not is another matter, of course...but he certainly could. As noted, having the Emerald Champion as the son's sensei simplifies things, because it would be much more of a regular master-student relationship; the EC has that kind of status.

So...kinda fuzzy answer, because it's an unusual situation to which everyone would have to adapt the regular protocols around the Emperor.

In case of being the son of the emperor, I am in doubt also in the reverence, who would do the greater reverence, the emperor would do or the sensei? (go with your head to the floor or go to the waist?)

46 minutes ago, ADGabriel said:

In case of being the son of the emperor, I am in doubt also in the reverence, who would do the greater reverence, the emperor would do or the sensei? (go with your head to the floor or go to the waist?)

If I understand your question, you're asking who would show greater reverence, the son of the Emperor or the sensei of the dojo? Generally, the sensei would, simply because the prince will have higher status. However, I could certainly see specific situations--for example, the sensei is a renowed war hero who performed great deeds in service to the Empire--in which the prince may choose to show greater respect than normal for the sensei. He probably wouldn't bow lower, but he might bow more deeply than strict protocol demands.

But the prince does remain the prince, regardless.

20 hours ago, ADGabriel said:

A question about hierarchy, whether a son of the emperor or even the emperor, went to a dojo, who would be the greatest authority? ...

The short version is the Emperor or Heir.

The longer answer is almost certainly the Emperor but ... well ... maybe it depends.

The "general issue" dojo would probably fall over itself over the honor of the Emperor (or the Emperor's Heir) actually visiting their school.

I think for an elite school like the Kakita Dueling Academy the visit would be treated almost like a crisis. Clearly all honor MUST be granted to such a VIP. Ceremonially, everyone defers to the VIP. But also, if you are chasing perfection, then you can't get too distracted. Maybe as the Sensei you give them a nice tour, a couple of demonstrations and try to keep them from anywhere that they can interfere too much... Worse is if the Emperor wants to actively give unhelpful/unwanted advice on how to run things! Worst is if the Emperor wants training! Aiye! The poor Sensei. How do you balance the respect needed to be shown to "all highest" vs the need to find and correct everything the VIP is doing wrong? As DGLaderoute notes the last situation ranges from manageable (if the Emperor is reasonable & is willing to accept the odd stumble in learning.) To "Oh my Gods! Oh my Gods! Oh my Gods!!!" panic (if not). The fiction clearly shows that the training with the Ruby Champion is not going smoothly with the Emperor's oldest son...

A third possible scenario is one where the Sensei doesn't care that much about social appearances or Great Clan dynamics. The sensei here would functionally remain in charge despite any social honors paid in respect to the Emperor. In Rokugan this would be vanishingly rare but its not impossible. For example, while Shinsei showed respect to Emperor Hantei, I don't think he obeyed any orders he didn't want to. If Hantei had proved to be unenlightened I think Shinsei would have left as soon as he realized he couldn't teach him anything useful to better Rokugan. Similarly, maybe , I can see some remote schools ... perhaps in the far parts of the Dragon Mountains ... or perhaps run by Shinseist monks ... that would be very polite, but not necessarily deferential to the Emperor or Heir. The Ise Zumi are probably not going to stop tattooing themselves, even if (somehow) a visiting Imperial Heir decides they should. Part of Togashi's remoteness is to make such meddling next to impossible. A final possibility in this vein is a school run by a disguised magical being (like a Tengu) that doesn't see itself bound by or too mortals & the throne of Rokugan.

Still in most situations it should be clear cut that the Emperor is top dog.

18 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

But the prince does remain the prince, regardless.

Compare the two bits of fiction we have to go on, Wildcats and Dragon's Teeth and Children of Bushido.

Sotorii pointedly refers to Doji Satsume as "Satsume-Sensei" and seems to show him as much respect as he shows anyone. He is still the heir, though, meaning he has higher status than his instructor - which is why Agasha Sumiko is 'your highness'-ing him in Wildcats and Dragon's Teeth, and why - one of the fundamental problems with Hantei Sotorii's character - the rules of courtesy forbid anyone unequivocably telling him openly " dude , you suck at swordsmanship ". Which is why Bayushi Dairu beating him comes as such a shock.

That's not unique to the emperor's heir - basically any noble-born samurai, like a daimyo's son, is potentially of higher status than their sensei. Yes, the masters of the big clan schools (like Kakita Toshimoko) are high-status samurai themselves, but the people giving day-to-day instruction will be less important individuals. The art of correcting a student's flaws without actually criticising them is probably a finely honed skill.

Which, come to think of it, may be part of the problem with Hantei Sotorii. We know (because we've seen his instruction style from flashbacks where he was teaching Doji Hotaru) that Doji Satsume's teaching style can basically be summed up as " You suck. Try it again , and do better. " and he clearly knew that the social rules of the empire means that even as Emerald Champion, he couldn't do this with the crown prince.

So he seems to have not bothered developing a more diplomatic teaching style and instead settled for not really teaching him anything at all .....

"I trained him wrong, as a joke" - Doji Satsume's Ghost, probably

13 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

"I trained him wrong, as a joke" - Doji Satsume's Ghost, probably

A funny quote, but I don't get the impression Satsume ever cracked a joke during his entire mortal existence.....

On 6/7/2019 at 8:28 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

A funny quote, but I don't get the impression Satsume ever cracked a joke during his entire mortal existence.....

Either that, or he pulled off the best deadpan irony ever .

On 6/6/2019 at 5:46 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Compare the two bits of fiction we have to go on, Wildcats and Dragon's Teeth and Children of Bushido.

Sotorii pointedly refers to Doji Satsume as "Satsume-Sensei" and seems to show him as much respect as he shows anyone. He is still the heir, though, meaning he has higher status than his instructor - which is why Agasha Sumiko is 'your highness'-ing him in Wildcats and Dragon's Teeth, and why - one of the fundamental problems with Hantei Sotorii's character - the rules of courtesy forbid anyone unequivocably telling him openly " dude , you suck at swordsmanship ". Which is why Bayushi Dairu beating him comes as such a shock.

That's not unique to the emperor's heir - basically any noble-born samurai, like a daimyo's son, is potentially of higher status than their sensei. Yes, the masters of the big clan schools (like Kakita Toshimoko) are high-status samurai themselves, but the people giving day-to-day instruction will be less important individuals. The art of correcting a student's flaws without actually criticising them is probably a finely honed skill.

Which, come to think of it, may be part of the problem with Hantei Sotorii. We know (because we've seen his instruction style from flashbacks where he was teaching Doji Hotaru) that Doji Satsume's teaching style can basically be summed up as " You suck. Try it again , and do better. " and he clearly knew that the social rules of the empire means that even as Emerald Champion, he couldn't do this with the crown prince.

So he seems to have not bothered developing a more diplomatic teaching style and instead settled for not really teaching him anything at all .....

The scary thing is: this means that Satsume FAILED in a critical duty. If he had trained Sotorii properly, he might have taught the boy patience, and tempered that rage of his. Satsume's failure killed the Emperor, and leads to everything that follows. This is why failure often leads to seppuku: because the price of failure is always worse than just the failure itself. Satsume's failure to train one student might very well doom the Empire, or, at least, the Hantei line.

39 minutes ago, sakieh said:

The scary thing is: this means that Satsume FAILED in a critical duty. If he had trained Sotorii properly, he might have taught the boy patience, and tempered that rage of his. Satsume's failure killed the Emperor, and leads to everything that follows.

I wholeheartedly agree. In his defence, he clearly knew that Sotorii wasn't suitable; another reason he 'gave up' on him might well be the fact that we know he was actively searching for a plan B. The Plan B would still probably have gone wrong given Sotorii, Satoshi and Kachiko 'helping' but we won't know how his being alive might have changed matters.

For starters, suggesting the Emperor not tell the spoiled, violent son he was being cut out of the succession with no witnesses, in a room with a sword, before telling other 'inner circle' members of the court what he was doing, might not be the best plan, could have avoided a lot of trouble.

But yes, at a basic level, he chose courtesy and righteousness over sincerity and duty. Which is very crane but not always the best thing to do for the empire. Rather more significantly; Agasha Sumiko does the same (it's probably too late at that point but that doesn't change her responsibility, and the Dragon are supposed to value sincerity above all).

Failing to educate Sotorii properly is a huge deal, and frankly Satsume and the Emperor and the Empress all share a fair chunk of blame. The fact - by comparison - that we meet Dairu first in a friendly competition with Daisetsu that the latter is losing , and gracefully(ish) shows that it is possible to instil that in someone raised in the palace - but of course the social rules around the heir are much more iron-clad.

Ultimately, emperors have been raised for nearly a millennium, so either there's been a lot of emperors like sotorii and they've been continuously covered up, or else there is a protocol for telling a high-status student "you suck" and Satsume didn't do it. Which is, as you say, a potential catastrophe for the empire.

5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ultimately, emperors have been raised for nearly a millennium, so either there's been a lot of emperors like sotorii and they've been continuously covered up, or else there is a protocol for telling a high-status student "you suck" and Satsume didn't do it. Which is, as you say, a potential catastrophe for the empire.

I think, normally, it would be included in his progress reports to the Emperor. Why Satsume did not voice that Sotorii was a poor student without the patience or contemplative nature needed to truly master the blade(I assume Satsume was trained at the Kakita school)? That is beyond me. Heck, I do not see how he could have accepted the failure to seek perfection his failure was causing, because he *HAD* to see he was failing.

5 minutes ago, sakieh said:

I think, normally, it would be included in his progress reports to the Emperor. Why Satsume did not voice that Sotorii was a poor student without the patience or contemplative nature needed to truly master the blade(I assume Satsume was trained at the Kakita school)? That is beyond me.

The Emperor was clearly just as aware as his advisors of what an arrogant little turd Sotorii was turning out to be, though.

He may not have told Sotorii, there's no evidence he was keeping the Emperor in the dark.

It might also be part of why - by comparison - he was so uncompromising with training his own daughter.

51 minutes ago, sakieh said:

I think, normally, it would be included in his progress reports to the Emperor. Why Satsume did not voice that Sotorii was a poor student without the patience or contemplative nature needed to truly master the blade(I assume Satsume was trained at the Kakita school)? That is beyond me. Heck, I do not see how he could have accepted the failure to seek perfection his failure was causing, because he *HAD* to see he was failing.

Satsume got assassinated by the Kolat before speaking his mind to the Emperor. Because the Kolat wants Sotorii on the throne, for obvious reasons.

Having just finished the palace adventure, I disagree, they killed him because he had a plan to make the heirs worth. The kholat don't wan't either on the throne, they want a civil war that will let them watch most of the royalty kill each other off, then they come in and finish the last samuraii, and peasant revolution.

Also, yes, Satsume failed his duty. He did not take kindly to my character refusing to take part in the final tea ceremony, and turning my back on his ghost. (My gm was kinda mad I didn't follow through on making him a bound spirit in a meishodo talisman, heh.

9 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

Having just finished the palace adventure, I disagree, they killed him because he had a plan to make the heirs worth. The kholat don't wan't either on the throne, they want a civil war that will let them watch most of the royalty kill each other off, then they come in and finish the last samuraii, and peasant revolution.

Also, yes, Satsume failed his duty. He did not take kindly to my character refusing to take part in the final tea ceremony, and turning my back on his ghost. (My gm was kinda mad I didn't follow through on making him a bound spirit in a meishodo talisman, heh.

well, Satoshi is the highest ranked Kolat we know of so far, and he wants Sotorii on the throne, we also know that much.

Well, I didn't know that. now I do! lol. and again, personally, if that's the case, he wants him on the throne to show the people a nutbar emperor, reduce the belief in the celestial right of rule, and cause a civil war. (which is a GOOD plan.)

30 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

Well, I didn't know that. now I do! lol. and again, personally, if that's the case, he wants him on the throne to show the people a nutbar emperor, reduce the belief in the celestial right of rule, and cause a civil war. (which is a GOOD plan.)

Exact. the Kolat wants Sotorii on the throne because they know he is a nutcase.

Satsume wouldn't have let that fly and was about to open his bag to the Emperor.