Kisada is going to support Scorpion up until the point that he sees that Shoju does not have things under control........just like during the original coup.

That's when he'll turn to Fu Leng and see if he can get the hook up on some fancy war standards and Oni

Or until they (the Scorpion) run out of jade.

11 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

Or until they run out of jade.

I think that point has already come...

1 minute ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I think that point has already come...

We haven't even started negotiating a new trade deal yet...

26 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

We haven't even started negotiating a new trade deal yet...

Technically you didn't get to negotiate the first one. Taka said hello and Yoshi said nope.

Kisada is gonna be pissed when he finds out that "jade" he got from Yoritomo is just colored rocks.

Taka said hello and The Emperor ordered (at Kachiko's request) Yoshi to say nope.

I know these fine distinctions don't matter to people, but it's an important distinction. It wasn't really Yoshi who denied the Crab jade. It was the /Scorpion/ who denied the Crab jade and made the Crane say it, for no reason than to leave the Crane further and further without allies and advance the Scorpion position in court.

But, you know, go pincer alliance.

1 hour ago, KakitaKaori said:

Taka said hello and The Emperor ordered (at Kachiko's request) Yoshi to say nope.

I know these fine distinctions don't matter to people, but it's an important distinction. It wasn't really Yoshi who denied the Crab jade. It was the /Scorpion/ who denied the Crab jade and made the Crane say it, for no reason than to leave the Crane further and further without allies and advance the Scorpion position in court.

But, you know, go pincer alliance.

Well that settles it...I’m making a Crab/Crane deck no matter how lore breaking it is...

5 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Taka said hello and The Emperor ordered (at Kachiko's request) Yoshi to say nope.

I know these fine distinctions don't matter to people, but it's an important distinction. It wasn't really Yoshi who denied the Crab jade. It was the /Scorpion/ who denied the Crab jade and made the Crane say it, for no reason than to leave the Crane further and further without allies and advance the Scorpion position in court.

As I have hashed out endlessly on these boards, there are ways to say no that don't turn someone who has come to ask for help into a remorselessly hostile enemy. Yoshi did none of those. Thus, he is a fool.

It has nothing to do with not being able to fork over jade, and everything to do with the way Yoshi conducted himself in that conversation. But hey, the Mantis seem happy with how he handled things...

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

As I have hashed out endlessly on these boards, there are ways to say no that don't turn someone who has come to ask for help into a remorselessly hostile enemy. Yoshi did none of those. Thus, he is a fool.

It has nothing to do with not being able to fork over jade, and everything to do with the way Yoshi conducted himself in that conversation. But hey, the Mantis seem happy with how he handled things...

I mostly agree, but maybe he isn’t a “fool” generally, but only flawed in that he so loathes the Crab Yasuki he can’t help but take every opportunity to thwart them. I think in general he’s supposed to be a skilled courtier.

2 hours ago, Kani Kantai said:

I mostly agree, but maybe he isn’t a “fool” generally, but only flawed in that he so loathes the Crab Yasuki he can’t help but take every opportunity to thwart them. I think in general he’s supposed to be a skilled courtier.

Or, he is a skilled courtier, and was intentionally offensive to Taka not because of his own personal beliefs but because he was told to make sure that Taka never makes the same request again. Even if it made Taka an enemy. Or maybe he wanted to make Taka angry at the Crane rather than the Emperor, because he has more loyalty to the Emperor than the Crane and knew the Crab would be angry either way. (Which is already established as true...he puts the interests of the Emperor over even the needs of his own family members). He has never had in any incarnation shown any particular loathing for the Crab.

Either you accept he's an incompetent courtier who climbed to the top somehow, or you accept he's a competent courtier who is doing what he intends to do and knows he's pissing of Taka and knows that Taka will be mad at the Crane at a time when the Crane desperately needs allies (which Yoshi also knows). Either he's overwhelmed with emotion...when he's specifically and intentionally citing emotion as a weakness...or you accept his reason is because he thinks it's in the best interest of the Empire.

You can argue that all you want, see him as incompetent all you want. But it doesn't change that he has been cited already as being 1) A very good courtier 2) A courtier that puts the Emperor first 3) A courtier not controlled by his emotions and 4) A courtier that was told specifically to tell Taka there was no more jade and there was no jade to be had.

Agreed Yoshi did what he was told to do. The decision wasn't up to him. The way he delivered the message was offensive. Considering his character I think we have to assume that delivery was on purpose. It's possible he did it that way so that the blame would fall on him and his clan and not the emperor. It's possible he did it because he liked sticking it to the Yasuki. I don't think it needs to be one way or the other. It's most likely a bit of both, and that's what I had assumed when I read that fiction.

He can have that victory considering the Crab are just going around that proclamation anyway by stealing the Jade with the support of the Mantis and working on trade deals with the Scorpion who now control a former Crane jade mine. Handled in a very pragmatic Crab way. If ever there was a reason for Crab to go to war with the other clans, messing with their supply chain has to be at the top of the list. I have to imagine this issue will eventually come to a head. Especially if these negotiations with Yojiro fall through for some reason. I feel like Kisada's thoughts at the end of the first Crab fiction are kinda like a Chekhov's gun.

I like that Kakita Yoshi takes the draw on Bayushi Yojiro getting Toshi Rambo. The twin directives of ‘get the sword, give the bride” is standard Crane. Interesting that Doji Kuwanan is in the Forbidden City to begin his path of vengeance, conveniently near Scorpion-planted evidence with Doji Hotaru nowhere nearby to countervail.

5 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Or, he is a skilled courtier, and was intentionally offensive to Taka not because of his own personal beliefs but because he was told to make sure that Taka never makes the same request again. Even if it made Taka an enemy. Or maybe he wanted to make Taka angry at the Crane rather than the Emperor, because he has more loyalty to the Emperor than the Crane and knew the Crab would be angry either way. (Which is already established as true...he puts the interests of the Emperor over even the needs of his own family members). He has never had in any incarnation shown any particular loathing for the Crab.

Either you accept he's an incompetent courtier who climbed to the top somehow, or you accept he's a competent courtier who is doing what he intends to do and knows he's pissing of Taka and knows that Taka will be mad at the Crane at a time when the Crane desperately needs allies (which Yoshi also knows). Either he's overwhelmed with emotion...when he's specifically and intentionally citing emotion as a weakness...or you accept his reason is because he thinks it's in the best interest of the Empire.

You can argue that all you want, see him as incompetent all you want. But it doesn't change that he has been cited already as being 1) A very good courtier 2) A courtier that puts the Emperor first 3) A courtier not controlled by his emotions and 4) A courtier that was told specifically to tell Taka there was no more jade and there was no jade to be had.

Calm down?

...I didn’t say he was incompetent. I just said it’s ok for characters to sometimes make mistakes, have flaws, not always handle situations with deft infallible brilliance.

I love Yasuki Taka, but I’m also glad he doesn’t always win, or always have the upper hand. He sometimes has to admit he’s been beaten.

Characters need to be able to make wrong choices. I think that's a fundamental aspect of good storytelling.

If Yoshi's attempt at slam poetry at the end of his letter isn't proof that he's a total d-bag, then I don't know what is.

You don't know whether I'm 'calm' or not. I do know that saying 'Calm down' to someone is a really great way to escalate a confrontation though.

Yoshi is allowed to have flaws. He has several.

However, presuming that he is making gross base mistakes that are based on the opposite of his character and status as depicted when there are other explanations seems wrong to me. If Hida Kisada failed to handle a delicate political negotiation with tact and aplomb, but instead barreled through it without caring, it would be a mistake that would appropriate for Hida Kisada. If he lost a division on the wall because he was too busy discussing the finer points of tea with a visiting Shiba, however, it would be a mistake that Crab players would rightly find silly and out of character. If other clan players came on saying that the reason he lost the third division tower was because he was too distracted by his emotional feelings towards Bayushi Kachiko or some other clan, without any evidence in text of actually him personally having such feelings towards anyone, they might protest too.

Him feeling personally emotional about the Crab has not one bit of evidence in the story. The Yasuki wars happened 700 years ago, and Yoshi has no reason to have any day to day interaction with the Crab to have negative feelings about...certainly not negative enough feelings to overwhelm him in such fashion. He's not even competing with them. He doesn't need to be hostile. His job is to cultivate friends and allies. If he was rude purely as a mistake from being overwhelmed from animosity over an event 700 years ago and generalized hostility, it would be as out of character and weird as Hida Kisada losing the wall due to a desire for courtly romance. The writers could write it that way. Or there could be a more reasonable explanation.

19 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

If Yoshi's attempt at slam poetry at the end of his letter isn't proof that he's a total d-bag, then I don't know what is.

It's called a kaiju haiku . When the japanese do it, it's cool, not dumb.

16 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

You don't know whether I'm 'calm' or not.

Correct. Hence the “?”.

You can bear an (irrational) animosity towards someone simply because of their heritage, yes even after several hundred years.

And yes, your greatest strength can play into your greatest weakness. Smart people can miss something obvious. Powerful people can underestimate their enemy. Some people can enjoy disappointing a cultural enemy a little too much, and miss the opportunity to direct their frustration in a different direction, instead of into the arms of another enemy.

Crane seems pretty wary of Mantis. Well, great job Yoshi, they now may have just gotten a great clan to offer unprecedented support to their ambitions.

Not treating Yasuki Taka with such open disdain might have given the opportunity to (perhaps completely insincerely) make it appear like Yoshi or the Crane might be sympathetic to the plight of the Crab, and then, based on that potential for Crane support made them less likely to risk siding with another rival.

I think it’s a little silly to take the view that because Yoshi is a competent and experienced courtier that he can’t get too comfortable and make a mistake now and again.

34 minutes ago, Kani Kantai said:

Correct. Hence the “?”.

You can bear an (irrational) animosity towards someone simply because of their heritage, yes even after several hundred years.

And yes, your greatest strength can play into your greatest weakness. Smart people can miss something obvious. Powerful people can underestimate their enemy. Some people can enjoy disappointing a cultural enemy a little too much, and miss the opportunity to direct their frustration in a different direction, instead of into the arms of another enemy.

Crane seems pretty wary of Mantis. Well, great job Yoshi, they now may have just gotten a great clan to offer unprecedented support to their ambitions.

Not treating Yasuki Taka with such open disdain might have given the opportunity to (perhaps completely insincerely) make it appear like Yoshi or the Crane might be sympathetic to the plight of the Crab, and then, based on that potential for Crane support made them less likely to risk siding with another rival.

I think it’s a little silly to take the view that because Yoshi is a competent and experienced courtier that he can’t get too comfortable and make a mistake now and again.

Honestly everything we've seen about Yoshi in the new lore actually plays to him being an arrogant prick who tends to think he's smarter then everyone else in the room and thus sometimes overextends his hand. We saw a few examples of this in Court Games where he was ready to tear a new one on the lowly individual who dared obstruct his path while he was returning to the Crane residence until he recognized it was his brother Toshimoko, and his own memories of his brother nearly "killing" him as a child over some minor dispute. We then see how he views all court actions as a transaction he offers something in exchange for a concession or future favor when he deals with Kakita Yuri's request to move the Unicorn up to the front of the line for the next session of the court to enter their petition to try and end the conflict over Toshi Ranbo. And when he was completely blindsided by Kachiko having maneuvered the Emperor to declare a moratorium on any new Imperial Edicts until a new Emerald Champion was appointed we see how that tendency to overlook others can come back and bite him. as up to that moment he was just smugly reflecting on how everything was going to plan and how he was getting to subtly put Ujiaki in his place by demanding a priority for his won petition and he had not really making much of her late appearance at court.

The Taka situation is an example of that, and we know that despite it being 700 years ago the Crane are still hostile to the Yasuki as despite being the official courtier family for the Crab they do not send representatives to Crane courts due to the tensions it provokes.

1 hour ago, 987654321 said:

It's called a kaiju. When the japanese do it, it's cool, not dumb.

But Yoshi is not Japanese, so he is dumb.........oh I see what you did there.

Also isn't a kaiju a big monster from another dimension that we fight with big robots?

Rofl

Say what you will about Ujiaki, but, that guy knows the meta. Lol

"Phoenix, Crane and Scorpion are top dogs so go with Phoenix while we wait for better cards. I'm sure you're just as pissed as me about Unicorn getting all the good stuff lately but our new revenge theme looks like it will be good."

Even Ujiaki is too bored with Crab and Dragon to even bother mentioning them. 😛

25 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

But Yoshi is not Japanese, so he is dumb.........oh I see what you did there.

Also isn't a kaiju a big monster from another dimension that we fight with big robots?

Maybe it was called haiku or whatever? Idk man, foreign languages are hard.

Also, the culture of Rokugan is for all intents and purposes feudal Japan with the serial numbers filed off.

41 minutes ago, 987654321 said:

Maybe it was called haiku or whatever? Idk man, foreign languages are hard.

Also, the culture of Rokugan is for all intents and purposes feudal Japan with the serial numbers filed off.

In fairness the big trappings are Japaneses but there is quite a bit of China thrown in there as well.

26 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

China thrown

I read “China Town” and I was like...

🤔

On 5/23/2019 at 6:39 AM, KakitaKaori said:

Or, he is a skilled courtier, and was intentionally offensive to Taka not because of his own personal beliefs but because he was told to make sure that Taka never makes the same request again. Even if it made Taka an enemy. Or maybe he wanted to make Taka angry at the Crane rather than the Emperor, because he has more loyalty to the Emperor than the Crane and knew the Crab would be angry either way. (Which is already established as true...he puts the interests of the Emperor over even the needs of his own family members). He has never had in any incarnation shown any particular loathing for the Crab.

He certainly showed it here.

Quote

Either you accept he's an incompetent courtier who climbed to the top somehow, or you accept he's a competent courtier who is doing what he intends to do and knows he's pissing of Taka and knows that Taka will be mad at the Crane at a time when the Crane desperately needs allies (which Yoshi also knows). Either he's overwhelmed with emotion...when he's specifically and intentionally citing emotion as a weakness ...or you accept his reason is because he thinks it's in the best interest of the Empire.

The gentleman doth protest too much.

"How often the angry man rages denial of what his inner self is telling him."

Quote

You can argue that all you want, see him as incompetent all you want. But it doesn't change that he has been cited already as being 1) A very good courtier 2) A courtier that puts the Emperor first 3) A courtier not controlled by his emotions and 4) A courtier that was told specifically to tell Taka there was no more jade and there was no jade to be had.

That bolded part are patently false, based on his own internal thoughts that we get to read. He thinks, because his emotions operate differently from those of the people he knows, that he has perfect control of them, when his every action to date has proven that untrue.

As for his skill... whatever skill he has, clarity of vision isn't part of it. At no point do we see him really grasping the bigger picture- he inevitably lets himself get bogged down in minutiae. Moreover, he could easily have found an opportunity to calm matters, rather than exacerbate them. It would have cost him nothing to try- Taka's there as a supplicant. But he indulged himself. He also seems to think the cracking mask of Crane preeminence must be maintained even though that preeminence is currently in absolute tatters- heck, look at the Clan letter. He can list enemies, but the only allies he can cobble up as worthy of mention are a Minor Clan.

Moreover, it wasn't just the jade he turned down. He shot down every proposal Taka made as curtly and rudely as possible. More than jade was discussed, and Yoshi made sure to make every denial as smarmily as possible. He also played into Taka's expectations with every word he uttered- being incredibly predictable takes no skill. He also displayed either ignorance of or contempt for the person he was speaking to in that conversation, neither of which the Clan or the increasingly-troubled Empire can afford from a person with his responsibilities.

You want skill? Kakita Asami showed skill, and how to play a weak hand well. Yoshi shows how to overcompensate for a weak hand by making a bluff that will inevitably be called because you gave your opponent no other choice.

Yoshi is a fool. Well-placed, well-connected, and knowledgeable about what goes on at court- which makes his folly dangerous. He's certainly the best friend the Mantis could have asked for.

Which, as I have also said numerous times, is fine, because we're not at the part of the story where wise authority improves matters- we're still watching the wheels wobble before they come flying off of the trolley. Much like the Elemental council squabbling myopically, or Kachiko (speaking of fools, boy is she playing the part at present..) playing her games without knowing the board state...

Now, the Lion letter- MAN is poor Toturi getting edged out of his Clan's affairs hard and fast. Ikoma are Not Nice People. Ujiaki knows how to cut a guy's legs out from under him with seeming praise.